If prayer was effective, why would we need vaccinations? Why would we need medical technology? Why is it that medical technology is always more effective than prayer? Is God not as powerful as human ingenuity?
A believer might reply, “God works through science.” But that cannot be proven. It’s an assumption. If there was no God, wouldn’t we still have come up with the solution? If not, how exactly did God work through science? Why did he wait thousands of years to “work through science,” cruelly causing billions of deaths simply by withholding basic information?
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26 Comments
not only that, but why would he instruct all god-fearing christians to shun all science, because most of it contradicts everything they believe?
first time on your site, and i have to say i’m impressed. i’ll be a regular.
Yes, “God works through science” is indistinguishable from “Science works.” Just like “God helps those who help themselves” is indistinguishable from “Those who help themselves get positive change in their life through their own actions.” And both are indistinguishable from “God doesn’t exist” or “God does nothing for us.”
Must say, I have kept up with your site and I love it. It really has fueled most of my arguments with idiots.
I live in a small Southern town where they consider the 19th Amendment fake and Academics are a joke.
Almost like the rest of the US. Damn I dislike this place.
This is a very interesting point you make here. It makes a lot of sense, and I can totally see what you are saying. However, you being a former Christian should know the “answer to this”. Why does God need to work through science? It is our fault that we need medicine and vaccines is it not? Sickness and death was a result of sin. Now if he just wiped out sickness and famine and everything else, what would be accomplished? Once again, I am writing this to you knowing that you once believed in God, so you should know what I am talking about. I am not judging you or anything like that, I am just adding to the conversation. So please don’t take this as an attack… I come in peace :)
I think it’s actually worse than that as if god is this all powerful entity that creates and controls us it must surely be under god’s control of whether we get ill in the first place. Then again if the ‘power’ of praying somehow saves you it’s a miracle if nothing happens it was god’s will that you should die. I always find it extraordinary that anyone can then claim that god is this all loving all powerful entity.
And here’s a thought… God works through science, but 90% of scientists are atheists… So either only 10% of scientists are effective (the ones who believe) or God has no problem working with atheists. Of course, that doesn’t stop him from sending them to hell after they cured HIV! Good site, thanks!
To Daniel:
Great post. One of the strengths of the scientific process for determining the truth is its ability to evaluate and control for alternative explanations.
Faith lacks this crucial quality control check.
To Nick:
Your statement of “what would be accomplished” if sickness and famine were eliminated comes with two implications.
1. If human suffering is vastly reduced by predominantly non-religious scientists, can you rule out the possibility that God is actually “working through science” to encourage disbelief in dogma and the supernatural?
2. What is the ultimate purpose of human beings? If it is to sing and praise and have spiritual communion with a celestial deity for all eternity, it makes absolutely no sense to put them through worldly sickness and pain so that they can exercise “free will” to embark on this path.
LH said: 2. What is the ultimate purpose of human beings? If it is to sing and praise and have spiritual communion with a celestial deity for all eternity, it makes absolutely no sense to put them through worldly sickness and pain so that they can exercise “free will” to embark on this path.
I’ve always thought it’s a bit like spaghetti sauce. Once the raw ingredients are mixed and heated, you can eat it, but it only gets good after an hour or two of simmering.
And then there’s Madeira, which gets its qualities from treatment which would ruin any other wine.
These metaphors leave out questions like “What happens to the human burnt crunchy bits at the bottom of the spaghetti pot of humanity?” and “If we are Madeira, Who drinks the wine?”
However, even in our everyday world we see many extraordinary people as survivors of unusual or awful experiences. Hard to say if their unique qualities could have emerged in a nurturing context, or not. Also hard to say if that makes the suffering worthwhile.
Unfortunately we’re not likely to eliminate the suffering anytime soon.
Noni
One thing I try to stay mindful of is that prayers and praying are not tools of negotiation for reconciling human suffering with the Divine. While science can present a tangible picture of disease, cures, cause and effect, etc, it falls short of explaining what it all means in relation to individual human life. Reliance on science (and technology), or scholars, or historians, or fortune-tellers to explain the whole truth of a mystery will never be fruitful. Perhaps you might view prayer, either symbolic or literal, as life’s questions to us instead of our individual requests. (You might consider reading Viktor Frankl’s “Man’s Search for Meaning.”)
Daniel, I navigated to your “About” page. In regards to “What changed your mind?,” I am wondering why you didn’t look within yourself. You seem to be looking for answers and explanations anywhere and everywhere except the one place that offers the only truth that should matter to you personally.
You might not ever discover the truth about the “power of praying” or the existence of God or heaven or hell; but tell me, why and how have these mysteries embittered you so?
I wish you well.
Peace, wml
@writemyline: So do you think prayer is more effective than medicine? If so, do you have any evidence for this, other than anecdotal?
Also I don’t think I’m embittered, only pointing out questions that I think are unanswered and perhaps unanswerable.
First of all, medicine is not always more effective than prayer. It’s just not. I’ve observed it in my own life. I’ve observed it in the lives of terminal individuals who miraculously recover or drastically outlast whatever prognosis a doctor might give them.
Second of all, medicine does not exist outside of the bounds of Christianity and religion. Luke was a physician for crying out loud. Many of the scientists from Darwin’s day were Believers.
Lastly, did you ever stop to think that something of magnitude might very well be gained through death… besides decomposition? If not, how can you explain away that much of Christianity’s growth is thanks in large part to the spilled blood of the Believers who died staying true to Him?
“Daniel, I navigated to your “About” page. In regards to “What changed your mind?,” I am wondering why you didn’t look within yourself. You seem to be looking for answers and explanations anywhere and everywhere except the one place that offers the only truth that should matter to you personally.”
Oh, please. Are you seriously saying we should all follow “the little voices inside our heads” rather than take evidence from the world around us? That could justify any number of beliefs. Personal conviction is not a test of truth, it’s an excuse for lazy minds to justify what they can’t explain.
It sickens me to see someone who has honestly and painfully questioned the religion he was brought up in, being accused of not looking “within [him]self” for the answers! You obviously can’t relate to this because you yourself have never really questioned your ‘faith’, or rather the random accident of birth that led you to be brought up in a Christian family, and the consequent environment of closed-mindedness that comes with a life spent in the church.
“First of all, medicine is not always more effective than prayer. It’s just not.”
“It’s just not” is not an argument. It’s your personal belief, possibly borne out by experience, but to assume that your personal experience applies to everyone is the sort of arrogant anti-logic that your faith promotes.
Proof, on the other hand, is a logical tool that has been developed over centuries and shown to work. If you have scientific proof that medicine is not as effective as prayer, I will convert immediately to whichever god you choose. I can safely say that because I know there is no proof, and never could be.
You can state as many arguments as you like, but without proof you are simply talking from personal experience. Are you really so arrogant to think that your personal convictions carry more weight than the avalanche of scientific proof against them? I don’t believe you are. What I do believe is that, because you are part of a large organisation that is happy to promote such ideas, you believe you have a weight of opinion behind you that gives your argument validity.
Wow, I always figured witnesses – especially to the tune of hundreds of thousands (if not more) – would stand up as proof in any court case. Sorry I don’t bow to the rules of the debate club or Philosophical Wheel Spinning 304. And you’re right… it doesn’t apply to you… because you don’t have any faith to back it up. If it’s meaningless to you, it’s meaningless to Him.
Ooh ooh, tell me about your avalanche of scientific proof against my personal convictions. Point me in the right direction. Tell me about how healthy premarital and extramarital sex is. Tell me how healthy homosexuality is. Tell me how healthy alcoholism or any vice done to excess is. Tell me how wrong loving your neighbor is… or perhaps how unhealthy prayer can be. Tell me how unhealthy a commitment to community is. Tell me how unhealthy it is to have convictions and morals that don’t shift like the sand… and to live a life with a greater certainty that comes with faith and hope.
After you’re done with that, you can explain to me why recent research has shown that patients who have an active prayer life generally do better through the treatment process than those who do not.
Dazzle me, Barry.
And please don’t start with the tired response of “Show me that research…” Go to http://www.physorg.com/news93105311.html and
http://www.breastcancer.org/treatment/comp_med/types/spirituality.jsp just to get a taste.
@Brad: If you have any evidence for God healing people of things that couldn’t have happened anyway, I’d sure be interested.
I’m thinking like someone praying and their arm growing back, or something like that. I’m only aware of things where people pray, and about half are healed, and the other half aren’t. In other words, the same as coin flipping.
Or, people are told people are praying for them, which can also increase chances of success. (Or in some studies, worsened their chances!) But that seems to be a psychological effect since it changes if they aren’t told.
My guess science will find a way to grow limbs back (we’re almost there), and then all of a sudden people will attribute it to God. God was so merciful to have godless scientists figure out a way to help people! And so on.
Actually, Daniel, I know a couple (the husband is, in fact, a pharmacist) who swear one of their boys’ legs was healed of being shorter than the other one. I know a young military man who had been told his broken foot would prevent him from shipping out, and he was healed so that he could go. I know my wife was delivered from depression at the beginning of our marriage.
What makes you think only atheists go into science and medicine? I have a buddy who worked on the genome project in St. Louis a few years back, and he just happens to be… a Christian. I know plenty of nurses who are also… Christians.
@14 Brad:
Just a couple comments to your post.
Witnesses are important in court cases, but questions about our world are not decided as court cases. Nevertheless, witness accounts can serve as the basis for hypotheses that can be later tested.
Even in a court case, however, the judge will compare the witness accounts to available physical evidence. If there is a disagreement it is clear that witnesses cannot be trusted. There is very little physical evidence for religious claims and thus it is not a problem in this case.
Another thing that the judge checks is if the witness accounts contradict each other. We can see great contradictions in the case of religion. Just compare the accounts of the main religions — Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, etc. I see a problem there.
Third thing that I can think about right now is that the judge should check if it is possible for the witnesses to know what they claim they know. For example, many Christians claim that Jesus was born of a virgin. It is hard to imagine how even people living in his times would know something like that.
Concerning the “scientific proof”, I think that Barry was wrong and there is no such thing in science. There is only evidence for or against a particular hypothesis. When the evidence is overwhelming, it becomes reasonable to accept the hypothesis as a “fact”, or a “theory” if it encompasses a significant amount of knowledge with a great explanatory power. It is of course tentative. New evidence can change everything.
I don’t think that anybody is claiming that premarital or extramarital sex or homosexuality or the other things that you talk about are healthy. They are just person’s choices. For example, I like girls with black hair and smaller breast and that’s why I date such girls. Is it healthy or unhealthy? No, I just like it that way and it works for me.
There’s nothing unhealthy about prayer. I simply believe based on the available evidence that it doesn’t work. If other people believe that it works, good for them.
About the research that you mention, look for example at http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=89 for a review. I looked at the original article by David R. Hodge, and he himself states that the best designed and most recent studies didn’t show any effect. Most of the studies that he evaluates have very small samples, and as he notes, some are of poor quality. In my opinion, the effect is smaller than one would expect from an omnipotent deity (please, take this as a rhetorical statement, I don’t claim that I have any idea what an omnipotent deity would do).
Best, Norbert
To Noni:
What a bleak metaphor!
To be heated and burnt for so long, only to end up chewed into pieces and digested into millions of tiny molecules.
If THAT is the ultimate plan, it would be a better strategy not to go along.
While it is true that many (maybe most) extraordinary personalities were forged in turmoil and violence, I believe many of them would rather work to build a better world where people need not be subject to so much suffering.
Whatever the life experience, some of us are helping to reduce this suffering instead of cooking up a whole bunch of pointless metaphorical questions.
To Brad.
A recent clinical study to determine if prayer was effective in the outcome of Cardiac Bypass Surgery. Half the group had people pray for them and half did not. The group which incorporated prayer did significantly and statistically worse than those without prayer. Blind faith always crumbles under the weight of REAL science.
Also to Brad
I performed Anesthesia primarily for trauma and high risk obstetrics for over twenty years, I never saw any miracles. I did see allot of unnecessary suffering and death that no “God” with the attributes you bestowed upon them would tolerate.
OK Brad, I will ignore your illogical rants and concentrate on the scientific facts.
First of all, the first link you provide is the findings of one researcher, “an assistant professor of social work in the College of Human Services”, not a medical scientist but a “leading expert on spirituality and religion”! I can’t help but conclude that his “research” is biased towards validating his own field of study.
The second link simply states that prayer makes people happier and that this has a positive effect on their health. Notice however that it doesn’t specify that you have to pray to the Christian god (the article says you can pray in a “church, temple, or mosque”) so you’ve really shot yourself in the foot. Praying to Allah has the same effect as praying to Yaweh!
Now for the real science:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html
“Because it is the most scientifically rigorous investigation of whether prayer can heal illness, the study, begun almost a decade ago and involving more than 1,800 patients, has for years been the subject of speculation.”
http://tinyurl.com/5fmkv7
This was a *proper* meta-analysis of 14 studies.
“Given that the IP (Intercessory Prayer) literature lacks a theoretical or theological base and has failed to produce significant findings in controlled trials, we recommend that further resources not be allocated to this line of research.”
I’d also like to conclude by quoting a critic of these IP claims, in saying that I “subscribe to the generally accepted axiom of science that extraordinary claims (particularly miraculous ones) require proportionately extraordinary proof.”
Brad -
What’s so miraculous about someone being depressed not being depressed anymore after a significant life event?
And about the guy who got healed so he could go off and fight… I bet he was hopping mad at God for healing him!
In response to Daniel and Barry–
Gentlemen,
Perhaps I was unclear in my earlier post. I speak of prayer from a spiritual perspective, not a religious one. I believe the answers to Daniel’s questions (in his initial post) are ones that fall through the cracks of both science and religion. Daniel’s questions seem to point to a spiritual pursuit–undoubtedly, a personal one.
“…You obviously can’t relate to this because you yourself have never really questioned your ‘faith’, or rather the random accident of birth that led you to be brought up in a Christian family, and the consequent environment of closed-mindedness that comes with a life spent in the church.”
Barry, why do you assume I’m a Christian in a church? Why not a Jew in a synagogue , a Muslim in a mosque, or a Buddist in a temple? If I was as close-minded as you suggest, I probably would have clarified my own religious identity or affiliation. And questioning ‘faith’ is a universal and inescapable phenomenon of human behavior. Moreover, it is critical to spiritual awareness and enlightenment.
Prove faith and prayer, solve all the mysteries, find the hill where the Lord hides, and then tell me where the quest ended. Maybe within?
Peace, wml
Dear Daniel,
Keep up the good work. God is using you mate! Praying for you buddy boy. Hope to see you in heaven.
@Christian: Thanks for the laugh, buddy boy!
I have to laugh when I think of the old days, when I prayed, nothing happened, and I assumed that God just said “no”! One person prays for a cancer patient in room one, he lives. In the next room, another person prays for that patient, and he dies. Why do people still believe in prayer? And then, we we come close to dying, like surviving a car accident, we automatically think that it’s because god was watching over us? What about all the people who really did die in car accidents? Guess god was too busy with something else at the time, or he said “no”! It makes absolutely no sense. The mystery to me is why so many people still believe this crap! And it’s mainstream belief too. Incredible.