By When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called Religion.
(Robert Pirsig, as quoted in Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion (2008), p. 28)
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A religion is a cult with a hundred-year history and a measurable voting bloc.
Eh, Sigmund Freud said something to that extent in “Civilization and it’s Discontents” as well!
indeed… I paraphrased because I couldn’t be bothered looking it up. Atheism must have sapped my moral fibre.
Religion is only slightly less intelligent than fighting it. When was the last time that someone told you how stupid your beliefs were, causing you to immediately change your mind and see the light? I think you people just like to feel superior.
If you want to make a change, try nurturing the intellectual emptiness in the braindead fundies you so despise instead of giving them a reason to defend it. Unless you WANT religious morons to continue to exist in numbers so that you can feel good about being better than them. In which case, good job.
Agent C. Our modern, liberal society is based on criticism. Thanks to criticism, the western society broke away from the ancien regime. Criticism causes people to think, to use their mind and thus creating change. Now what you’re saying is we can’t deliver criticism to your way of thought. If we can’t criticize other people, we will be catapulted back to the middle ages.
In it’s essence, religion is good. It tries to moralise people and that is good. The bad thing about religion is that people value it as non-fiction, as true facts. Thus you get utopia’s and dystopia’s like heaven and hell, the apocalyps,…
Atheists don’t feel superior, they just want to bring you to your senses: relgion is nothing more or less than a tool to moralise people. It isn’t the word of some supreme being.
“In it’s essence, religion is good.”
You should probably explain what you mean by that.
It’s intentions are good, bringing morals to the people. But how they do it, that’s another thing… Heaven and hell were created to force people to listen to their morals and nowadays, religious leaders only care about their own. Religion has become perverted. Religion is not believing, it’s learning morals.
I think you (both) mean “In its essence”, not “In it’s essence” – you’re saying “in it is essence”.
Agent C is right on the money. There is one thing I know for sure, and that is that insulting people or speaking down to them is no way to win their ears or heart.
I certainly understand the evils of organized religion as well as anybody – but wearing my atheism on my sleeve and beating people over the head with it – no matter how smart, logical and rational it is – will never convince them to question the *fundamental* things they consider to be and framework of their lives…
There is a thing called persuasion and rhetoric. Nobody ever won an argument by telling the other person they were stupid.
The Great Reality is deep within every man, woman, and child.
I was an altar boy. I quested after god my whole life. I prayed to god for answers, but he never responded. Why would god ignore me — a faithful servant? I looked harder in scripture for an answer, but all I found was the same stupid rhetoric spouted by the Christians I turned to for answers. God never had an answer for me, but the charlatans who believed in him had a profusion of bullshit answers
I hate them for the years that they stole from me.
Don-
Your story touched my heart deeply. I dont want to come across like I have all the answers but perhaps God is holding out in order to give you His best, so that you dont view Him thru the window pane of religion, rituals, rules and man made doctrines. These are never good lenses from which to see Him, to know Him truly, His real character and heart for us as they tend to diminish His Person.
Maybe your journey isnt over yet, maybe His love, His presence will show up yet in your life. Maybe this was all a set up for a grander plan, a more beautiful introduction. I know others who “quested” for God through traditional religious “vehicles”, ie church, studies, etc but left disappointed feeling like it was all over only to have Him show up in the most unusual ways in their lives.
Like I said, my heart goes out to you, I wish you all the very, very best. JC
JC- I’ve been telling you that very same thing, over and over, and you don’t seem to have the same compassion for me. Is it my science training? Do I seem hardened and undeserving of compassion to you? What’s the deal?
LRA-
I thought you knew by now how very much I care for you and sympathize (in a positive way) with you regarding your fundie Dad story, which is a terrible injustice and misrepresentation. Of all the stories I’ve heard here, its easy to understand why you struggle so much with “Christianity”, etc. My heart goes waaaaay out to you LRA and I’m sorry if I have ever come across in any other, unintentioned manner please accept my sincere apologies.
PS…I’m going to be heading down to San Marcos to see my daughter later this summer, would be happy to buy you and your hubby lunch somewhere along I35 in Austin, just to stop and give you a big hug :). I bet if we asked Daniel real nicely he would pass my email address to you (ok we might have to bribe him or something, ha).
All the best LRA! Peace girl.
Aw! Very nice! Yes, do email Daniel and have him send me your email. Who knows, maybe I can win you over to the dark side!!! (just kidding!)
Very wise to not give the nut bar access to your email address.
But I’m such a nice nut bar Sunny, :)
You are a contemptible bigoted sack of air-headed filth.
You hate me without a cause Sunny.
John C: ” I dont want to come across like I have all the answers but….”
“but”, nothing—that is *precisely* how you come across.
You go on to hypothesize…” perhaps God is holding out in order to give you His best, so that you dont view Him thru the window pane of religion, rituals, rules and man made doctrines.”
But next, you are certain of…….
“These are never good lenses from which to see Him, to know Him truly, His real character and heart for us as they tend to diminish His Person.”
Endless contradictions, coupled with your make-believe ability to know the minds of other human beings, namely, non-believers. Further, when non-believers try to explain to you (in great detail) why/how they are unable to “just believe”, you come back with thinly-veiled attempts to blame the non-believer. For instance, as recently as yesterday, you clump all non-believers together, insinuating that all who don’t believe “REJECT Him”[paraphrased from memory, and emphasis added]
And BTW, you offer “scripture” as reference to support your claims(when it seems to “support” your personal views), but yet, you warn others to not “view Him” through “man made doctrine”. Remarkable…f%cking remarkable.
No, the “man made doctrine” I warn against is the Institutional Church (IC), not scripture. I have heard many stories like his, seen many merciful and grace-filled new beginnings.
Who knows Boomslang-maybe there’s even one in store for you, you know what they say-ya never know.
“No, the ‘man made doctrine’ I warn against is the Institutional Church (IC), not scripture.”
Here’s your original statement in context: “…perhaps God is holding out in order to give you His best, so that you dont view Him thru the window pane of religion, rituals, rules and man made doctrines.”
What does the “IC” base their ideology on? To my understanding, they base it on the Christian philosophy, which is based on the Christian DOCTRINE, which is gleaned through the (selective) reading of “scripture”.
“I have heard many stories like his, seen many merciful and grace-filled new beginnings.”
If your philosophy holds true, then you should probably face the fact that not everyone will be given this thing you call “grace”, because after all, a 100% conversion rate would render any “scriptures” that claim to foretell a future of backsliders, skeptics, doubters, etc., false.
False scriptures don’t look good for you, or your “God”.
“Who knows Boomslang-maybe there’s even one in store for you, you know what they say-ya never know.”
Who knows, you ask? ‘Funny—because again, if your chosen religious philosophy holds true, then biblegod knows, and biblegod *knew*, that I would be UNable to accept its existence on “faith”, and it knew this before it presumbly brought me into existence. I look at this as a problem for it; not me(assuming it actually exists for sake of argument)
At least we are communicating a little more clearly Boomslang–thank you, I appreciate your efforts and tolerance, I really do.
Tell that to the 26,000 children who die everyday of starvation.
“I don’t want to come across like I have all the answers…” Why is it that on the one hand, religionists tell us that god and his reasons are too great for us to understand, and that nevertheless the bible is the key to god’s thinking–and then go on to tell us unscriptural things like “perhaps God is holding out in order to give you His best”? How can they presume to speak for god *except* to try to come across like they have all the answers? Contradiction masquerading as understanding! And the extension of it all too often translates as “I don’t understand god, but if you’re patient enough,
someday you will understand him to be as wonderful as I guess he might be.” There is no intellectual corruption as deadly as the combination of “might be” and authority.
I agree with boomslang. It seems Christians don’t realize how much they talk down to people. Anyone who doesn’t believe will not have to travel far before having a Christian talk to them like they’re an ignorant moron. The whole bible is chalk full of contradictions and metaphors. One could get practically any meaning they want out of it. So Christians using it as a reference does anything BUT proving a point.
Ouch, didn’t see that one coming. If only more people saw this….
C’mon you guys. Lighten up will you. The Hebrew Scriptures are a fun read, with some good ideas for survival in the desert 3,000 years ago. Jesus was a cool dude who was misunderstood and well before his time. I’m sure Jesus wouldn’t be a Christian today. He never was. Anyone with an enquiring mind can get most of the answers to life’s mysteries. We don’t need to invent gods or devils to understand the universe anymore. Just love our planet enough to preserve it and be nice to all living creatures. It’s not rocket science.
This is like politics, same shyte over and over again. Perhaps that’s why it is said to keep politics and religion out of most social gatherings like pubs.
Anyone with half a brain that isn’t in denial about their interim from the womb to the grave should conclude that the world has always been in control by the few of the masses. Why because the majority of humankind is here just to eat, sleep, shyte, and fornicate. Other than that they serve no useful purpose. Throughout history, a few smarty bips decided that they could get away with a lot of bullshit, and then came the invention of gods, kings, property, and all that other shyte like the internet, twitter, facebook, and somewhere inbetween jesus of brooklyn.
Like people on the dole wanting to own a nice new car, but really can’t afford one, will get the car, worship the car and let his or her family starve just for the sake of their own head up their ass attitude. They bathe in their pleasure whilst others suffer. For the few that fly, many must walk.
From the time one exits the womb until their death, we all do things to avoid the thought of our end. That activity is called life. All of the castles we try to build to last eons is symbolic of our wanting to be immortal. All of the titles, possessions, and even relationships are all a defence against the coming of that day of days, the end. Everyone wants a daddy god guy to save our asses and make sure we are happy after that last intake of air.
No one worries about what the hell happened or was before we were nor can they remember, so why worry about the end when we know not the outcome will be. So what if it is blank? What if it is not? I abhor when people look down their frightened noses at me because I won’t accept thier religious line of bullshit handed down to them by the elders.
LASTLY, I DON’T EVEN BELIEVE THAT WE COULD, FOR ONE MINUTE, GET EVERYONE ON THIS PLANET TO ASK OUT LOUD IN UNISON, AT A SYNCED TIME, THE QUESTION TO THE UNIVERSE. ARE YOU THERE GOD?
I mean if everyone on this planet that represents the sum total of this god’s creation couldn’t get it to give some explicit answer, then we should close the books once and for all on religion, gods, and especially, donations. Then go about enjoying the rest of our days without guilt of any sort.
No more Jewish, Xian, Muslim bullshit anymore from anyone’s mouth, ever again period.
Thsi si the goddam 21st Century, so lets grow up and outward and kick this religion dope already.
Yes, “religion” sucks indeed. Is oppressive, burdensome and contrary to man’s nature. Thankfully, its not at all what Christ came to bring, thankfully.
“Yes, ‘religion’ sucks indeed. Is oppressive, burdensome and contrary to man’s nature. Thankfully, its not at all what Christ came to bring, thankfully.”
Please…..*please* spare us these tired attempts to (deceptively) disassociate your personal, “spiritual” beliefs from that of “man”, the “IC”(Church), and “religion”. For if it were not for ALL of the above, you wouldn’t have the slightest clue who “Christ” was, nor what this alleged figure stood for/stands for. Get honest, or STFU.
I am being honest, I am always honest with you Boomer. Religion has nothing to do with the Truth. Honestly.
“Religion has nothing to do with the Truth.”
Right, “nothing”….except that it has everything to do with how/why (what you believe to be) “the Truth” has reached you.
Funny, I dont recall ever telling you my story Boomslang, not that you have ever asked or even care to know, you are assuming something here and we both know that’s not too…reasonable.
“Funny, I dont recall ever telling you my story Boomslang..”
Notice, I’m talking specifically how the message of “Christ” has reached you…. NOT why you believe it. In that case, I don’t need to know your “story”.(Phew!)
That’s my point, you dont even know how the “message” reached me, you assume by “traditional” means, ie preaching, etc but you dont know. Anyway moving on, I think the issue here is this-you just cant resist an opportunity to slam ol” John C!
Its ok, doesnt bother me, I have no reputation of my own to protect any longer, and how liberating it is. All the best to you sir.
John C….”That’s my point, you dont even know how the ‘message’ reached me, you assume by ‘traditional’ means, ie preaching, etc”
I am making an inference here, the same way I might infer how you know about “George Washington”. You obviously don’t/didn’t know President Washington, first-hand. Thus, I think that I can reasonably conclude that you were taught about George Washington, via books/literature(authored by people) and school(taught by people). In the same way, I can conclude that you were exposed to the Christian philosophy and its central figurehead, “Christ”, by books(the “Bible), and/or, school( Sunday school), and/or, people(the Church). All of which, you reprove.
People are mad.
You have to be intelligent to be mad, most people are redundantly stupid.
So, what you’re saying Dr. Deak, is that anyone who picks up a knife and starts slashing at people for no good reason, is intelligent? A big flaw in that statement, but I understand your reasoning.
Wouldst appear P that you said that.
Look under:
Panther
June 23, 2009 at 7:03 pm
See you silly wabbit.
I didn’t quite get that. Could you paraphrase it a bit?
You got it, now go away you irritating person. Never go to a gun fight with a butter knife.
Dr Deak, you’re spilling arguments that consist of mere air. Please make better metaphores in the future, or make better arguments. You’re reasoning was flawed, just admit it.
I see a lot of passion filled words that dance around the same circles again and again. I think any person has every right to believe in Christ and the Lord (according to scriptural references) but it is nice to take religion in context and not as an empirical lens with which to view one’s character. I believe it to be a fallacy of both reason and logic to blindly believe in a life-sculpting (and creating) force and attribute any existence whatsoever to stories handed down through oral tradition over hundreds of years. I do not intend to try to disprove the existence of God, but I do intend to offer my belief in exchange for scientifically refutable and replicable information concerning the existence of God. But full proof would be the negation of faith, now wouldn’t it? I am supposed to believe, without evidence, as the apostle Timothy was. He asked to see and feel Jesus’ wounds as to prove his rising which prompts Jesus to say “…blessed are those who believe without seeing me” (John 20:29 I believe)
The point I am trying to make is that I cannot believe in God, lest the ones offered by today’s religions. Was Jesus more humble than Buddha? More wise than Confucius? Faster than Mercury? A better chariot driver than Helios? Or was he a better drinker than Dionysus, or maybe he mastered flame better than Loki.
I will believe in results that are replicable in monitored settings and scientifically refutable theories that have been tested to solidarity and back.
Uh, John C, way back there you offered a reason why god didn’t answer Agent C’s questions.
have you ever considered that maybe his questions were not answered because:
A. Telepathy (aka praying) is without a doubt impossible.
B. Even if telepathy worked, it would have to be carried out between two or more living objects
C. There is no god, therefore making an impossible form of communication between a human and the aforementioned supernatural being even more impossible than it already is.
There is more than meets they eye Lee, so much more my friend.
Now john C., are you playing a character, or are you just wallowing in ignorance? Also, what is your story? I am sure you have one, yet I can tell you that it is no different than some other story I have heard before. Not to say all of them are the same, but that many copy one or another. I believe in your right to believe what you want, but when you make comments trying to open people’s minds to religion on a decidedly atheistic website, it brings to question why? You are only opening yourself to criticism while trying to prove to others your “godly” nature by putting on an enlightened act. Right now, more than religion, you should put yourself under a lens of scrutiny.
Thats actually a Nietzsche quote, although slightly different.
Richard Dawkins is my hero, but only because Carl Sagan isn’t around to do it anymore.
I think you may all like this atheist site too, check it out…
Aristotle’s Muse