“It reaffirmed for me the amazing denial religious thought puts people in, and the way they can’t conceive of anything else but religion.”

This was expectable in his case. We know that his condition is really hard, and he was probably afraid to see his own beliefs going away, and get in desperate.

It’s sad, but the true would not comfort him, and he saw that. I think we can’t blame him, cause his life is not easy. But of course, this is far from being a reason to agree with him.

but this was, for me, a… I wouldn’t say a good experience. But a sobering one. It reaffirmed for me the amazing denial religious thought puts people in, and the way they can’t conceive of anything else but religion.

Props to everyone for keeping it civil.

but you didn’t answer my point. I asked why god, the all-powerful, all-loving, and all-knowing, would paralyze you. You said “He just did it. But I felt his love all through the process.”

Here’s the thing. One of my friends told me about being in an abusive relationship, before she met me. She genuinely believed that her boyfriend loved her, and that when he hit her he was doing it out of love. But he was hurting her for his own selfish ends, and tricking her so that she wouldn’t leave him.

With your situation, it’s worse. You’re tricked into believing that god exists, and that he loves you, AND that he hurt you like that, and then you’re excusing him for being such a – excuse me – a bastard. Isn’t it possible that disease is just one of those things that happens and that no one is in control? Doesn’t that make things so much more comprehensible? No more need to excuse god for his inexcusable actions, because there is no god to excuse.

It was good talking to you. Before you left you said in 54 – the last but one section, “Remove that book from in front of your face and consent to see the world around you. It is blinding you to reality.”

Kindly look at my post ( 7) above and tell me how I would have survived to this day with out that book in front of me?

As every one, I have many unanswered questions about the world around us. But all my questions melt away when I see God answering prayers as I have found in my life. My life ALONE is answer to all my questions. I reiterate. I simply would not have survived to this day if God had not answered my prayers. This is simply an unalterable fact of my life.

I am leaving this discussion as well, confirming the fact that prayer has worked for me in the past and I simply survive even today by prayer. Good bye and God bless.

That there is a spirit world around is undeniable. (Irrespective of one’s faith in it. …

Wrong. I deny it categorically–see? If the spirit world exists, you need to prove it, logically and using evidence. Not truthiness, not “feelings,” irrespective of your faith in them.

Recently I read about a guy who does not want to believe that man ever walked on the moon. His simple argument is that human technology has not progressed that level. He is very adamant as well. Any idea what to do with such people?

Yeah. First you take him to an airport and show him aeroplanes. Then if required you drag the idiot through the Smithsonian to show him the technology. Then you put him on the ground, sit on him, and take his arguments apart one by one using (here’s the important bit) evidence.

If he persists in his delusion, you drag him over to Buzz Aldrin’s house and let him explain his delusions. Then after he gets his silly nose splinted, if teh silly persists, you take him for therapy.

If I tell you that aliens have visited and talked to me, it’s a ridiculous idea. And you would presumably ask for proof. Or dial the local laughing academy.

If I tell you that crystals can cure my disease, it’s a ridiculous idea. And you’d presumably try to direct me to an actual doctor.

But if I tell you that there’s an invisible being who made everything in the whole universe, that’s rational? Logical? And you’d go along with that?

You implied earlier that the questions seemed repetitious. They would be less so if you were offering answers to them.

If you’re going to insist, in the face of the evidence, that gods exist, then you have to back up your arguments with primary facts that you can build into a case.

Not feelings. Not legends. Not testimonials.

So do this for me: Start from the logical position, that there are no gods. Then take me from there to your god. Show me that chain of evidence.

I’m getting damn tired of asking the same questions of believers and continually getting the same useless answers.

Have your faith, by all means. But why expect anyone else to buy in without proof?

[One small note for Daniel--you might want to change the link formatting and make the link colour brighter.]

Whoops, got that garbled. “without form and void,” in hebrew “tohu wa bohu”

Tohu relates to tehom (“the deep”), and also to Tiamat. Bohu relates to “behemoth,” not “Leviathan,” who’s a different character.

What? Why? The Cherokee creation myth is also vastly different from the “Enuma Elish,” but no one has ever tried to convince me that it is Godly inspired.

Talk about straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel! Yes, many other myths have creation in stages. In fact, many other myths begin in the same way that Genesis does: a world of chaos represented by water. Many native american myths begin with animals or people coming down from heaven and creating land upon the faces of the water.

And yes, another common myth was the creation of the earth from a slain monster. But don’t think the Israelites were so far from that. The words for “Without form and void” have etymologies that tie them to Tiamat and Leviathan. Since these monsters frequently represented chaos and were said to live in “the deep,” you can start to see some obvious ties. What we have in Genesis is a priestly account; I’d bet the Israelite folk traditions told a bloodier story.

But let’s take a look at some more “passing references” that “must be correct”:

*the universe is filled with water – a common myth, but obviously not accurate. God makes the earth by dividing the waters, leaving water both over and under the earth.

* the earth is flat with a dome overhead – the Hebrew word that gets translated as “firmament” is “raqiya.” It comes from “riqqua,” meaning beaten out, like a sheet of metal. The sky, this “raqiya” was pictured as a great dome. As Elihu asks Job, (37:18) “Can you beat out [raqa] the vault of the skies, as he does, hard as a mirror of cast metal.” Anyway, also wrong.

* relative size of the celestial bodies – when your sky is a big metal bowl, obviously the sun has to be pretty small to fit inside and the stars must be tiny. Hence, Joshua could stop the sun, and the stars could fall to the earth. Again, wrong.

Tell me, which of these is correct? I’m sorry, but there’s nothing in the book of Genesis that could not have been written by priests of the era.

“Truly, I am terrribly sorry that the faith that you were taught in your younger days did not work for you. By the way, will you thow away a Chemistry text book if you did not get the desired results? Would you not rather see why you are not getting desired results?”

I would say that is more like believing in Santa Claus. Then you realize the people are lying to you, and there is no Santa Claus. You begin to analyze all the stories you know about him and you see they are contradictory, weird and even stupid. These histories doesn’t make any sense at all, and you see you was just blind. You’ve just believed in this and refused all your life to think deeply about it. All your life you’ve tried to justify your beliefs even if you did not understand them.

Chemistry is science, and it’s not supposed to “make my dreams come true”, it’s just to comprehend the natural world based in facts. Not in histories of old books. Your analogy is not good.

“You compalin that I am not properly answering questions. May be I am not. Now, Let me ask you one question. Please be kind enough to answer me briefly. I am soubly sure that you will.”

Do you realize that you again did no answer me?

“My question is “What would have happened to me seventeen years ago when I became ill if I did not know how to pray and get answers from God?” Please answer me this one question before you proceed further. Honestly I wish to know what you think about that question. Thank you for obliging.”

What do you think I am? An oracle. I can’t really know, and you know that. You just want me try to guess. Right. I will be so specific as you like (“in the beginning”):

You could have survived very well.

I think this it’s a pretty answer for a question you know I cannot respond. It’s like the bible or the horoscope answers.

The point here is that you’re again saying that the bible was a comfort in your life. No problem, it can be true. But like I’ve said before this doesn’t make it (bible) the true.

You are saying this: the bible was a comfort for you, so it’s true. By the same logic I can say: the “Santa Claus” bring happiness to the children, so he is real. Change Santa Claus for easter rabbit, unicorns, gnomes, etc.

In this logic I can say that the Koran is true cause it brings comfort to the muslin people. Answer me, does it make sense for you?

I have answered your question, so now answer me.

1. Never supported his initial implied claim that there were facts to which he had either access or information about that we scientists are either ignoring or are unaware of.

2. Never responded to: Regarding all of the above to one degree or another, see the Koran, the 18 purANas of Hinduism, Norse mythology, Greek mythology, (heck, even the Silmarillion) etc. etc. etc. All of them can claim the same things. Why do you give the Bible precedence over them?

3. Responded with metaphysical gobbledygook to: If everyone believes that 2+2=5, does that make it true?

4. Responded to my comment: “Isn’t it more rational that we instead come to the same conclusion as before, i.e. that these people didn’t know what they were talking about?” by implying that I belittled early man. When I was 3 months old, I couldn’t do simple math. Man, I was a moron.

5. Did not respond to the following exchange: “Now the question of Adam and Eve. Pre-Adamic race was just like animals which do not have consciousness.” And how do you know this? What evidence can you provide to support your statement?

6. Did not respond to the following exchange: “None of us really know what happened in the past. Could science possibly tell us when and where the modern civilized man appeared on this earth?” Does the “creator’s manual”? See above – it would not be unreasonable for an all-knowing being to have that information.

7. Did not respond to the following questions: “Where does the story end and the literal truth begin? Who decides? You? Me? The pastor down the road? If my holy book tells me something different and that snakes really do talk and that I should kill you if you don’t agree, am I wrong? Yours makes analogous claims in several passages.

8. Did not respond to the following exchange: “The Bible is not a scientific book. It is not dealing with the physical world. It is essentailly dealing with the moral/spiritual side of man’s existence.” Remember, you said there were some facts that we didn’t have in place. By saying so, you implied that you had access to them. At first you claimed it was the Bible – “what ever fact does not fit in [to what the Bible states] would surely be proved wrong tomorrow as the Bible is the creator’s manual (#24)”. Is that no longer true? Please proceed to enlighten us.

9. Did not respond: And what of all those people whose experiences cause them to believe something that YOU believe to be absurd? Do we give them credence just because they say so? That is what you are asking me to do for you.

10. Never responded: “According to the “creator’s manual” man was created AFTER the other animals (Gen 1:25-27). Also according to the “creator’s manual” man was created BEFORE the other animals (Gen 2:18-19). Which is it?”

This list is not complete and it does not include questions or comments from other posters.

Just one more volley and then I leave it to you all to continue.
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Bunch of stuff with this gem in the middle…. “I think you are demanding what even a modern University would not demand from one of its students.”

No, I am asking it of a supposedly loving, caring, generous, all-knowing, all-seeing, all-powerful creator. He either refuses to provide it, is not capable (and is therefore not all-powerful) or does not exist.
===========================
“The above material is the typical bronze-age man’s production.”

And in what way is the biblical creation myth not typical of what a bronze-age man could produce on his own. Give me any statement from that shows some extraordinary knowledge that could not have been written to any man at the time? Be honest, critically analyze any text you choose. Ask yourself, “Could I have written this without divine influence?”
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“I am helpless.”

I agree. But you do not need to be. Remove that book from in front of your face and consent to see the world around you. It is blinding you to reality.
===========================

“Should I throw away the Bible, I will throw away my life itself. It is as clear as that.”

And this, in my view, is the saddest you could have said.

For reasons stated previously, I go now to get some work done and to forward our progress in the ‘real’ world. I will read with interest. Have fun.

Now, just a couple of items from your last post to me:

“….That there is a spirit world around is undeniable.”

This is where you keep going. You make these broad statements with absolutely nothing to back them up. Over and over, throughout the history of mankind events that were originally attributed to the ’spirit world’ have subsequently been explained by physical and very understandable mechanisms. Disease was thought to be caused by impure spirits. Now we know that disease is due to microorganisms that were unknown to earlier societies. ‘Hearing voices’ is now known to be due to imbalances in neurotransmitters in the brain. Earlier man couldn’t have known about neurotransmitters so he attributed the phenomenon to the ‘demons’. I invite you to view the following: http://herebedragonsmovie.com/. While the entire video is interesting, all I am asking you to view is three minutes 20:20 to 22:50. I do not deny completely that anything may exist. The default position of any rational person is agnostic. I do however state that there is NO evidence to point to the existence of a ’spirit world’. On the contrary, there is evidence mounting every day to suggest that there are rational explanations for phenomena attributed to that world. Thus, the probability of there being a ’spirit world’ is very, very small. Small enough that the word ‘deny’ would be acceptable in casual conversation.
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“(Irrespective of one’s faith in it. Recently I read about a guy who does not want to believe that man ever walked on the moon. His simple argument is that human technology has not progressed that level. He is very adamant as well. Any idea what to do with such people?).”

Do you truly not see that you ARE one of these people?

“That the spiritual world is permanent and the physical is transitory is a truth we would only know if we are willing to accept the supernatural revelation. Since the spirit world is invisible it is not within the perview of science. Hence the need for a revelation form the divine.It is through this revelation that we know of a God who created this universe.”

I’m still waiting to hear why you give precendence to the Bible over any of the other holy books out there.
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“Don’t you know that no one ever practices the laws of the Old Testament today? Even Orthodox Jews do not do it. Old Testament is like the foundation of a building. A strong foundaton is required for any superstructure to stand on it. Our ultimate use is for the superstructure, the New Testament. Could any one around give us a better standard for humanity than the New Testament?”

Matthew 5:17-19 “Think not that I am come to destroy the Law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the Law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”
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“The foundation stands burried under the earth. The Old Testament had such regulations which seem cruel and ugly to modern society. But we know that even the Code of Hammurabi does not come any where near the Old Testament when it comes to the value of human life. In the Old Testament if a life was to be destroyed, it was to prevent the whole human race from getting contaminated. It is like a doctor removing cancerous cells from a living human body. It is to preserve life and not to destroy it. It is like a farmer culling birds which are affected in order to preserve the farm.”

So, when God orderd the Isrealites to invade the lands of a people in order to take it for themselves, he was removing a ‘cancer’ that had the potential to destroy humanity? Where are you getting this crap? Show me some support for these statements. In what way were the Amalekites a threat to humanity when they were ordered destroyed (1 Samuel 15)? The only evidence I can find in the Bible is that they were guilty of war with the Isrealites hundreds of years before (Deuteronomy 25 and a few other passages). Where was this “value of human life” of which you speak when Joshua “utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded” (Joshua 10:40-41). Or when God “smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon” (Exodus 12:29-30). How can you tell me of God’s goodness and grace when I can quote from your own book what a cruel SOB he can be. Oh, I know “God works in mysterious ways.” Remember, this being is supposed to be all-knowing and all-powerful. Yet, he refuses to enlighten us as to his reasons in the great “creator’s manual”.

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“If man was left to decide morality for himself, religion would have been like science, working with trial and error method. It would have taken thousands of years before the basic core of moral codes were to be discovered. ”

Maybe that is what the people you call the “pre-adamic races were doing all that time.

“Please tell me who would have codified such high standards of morality, some two thousand years ago, and that too some of the writers of which were ignorant fishermen, if they were not guided by God up in heaven?”

Oh, only every other culture in the world. We have yet to find a culture that does not have the same basic moral code as any other (of course there are minor differences but the basics are the same). This includes societies that have never heard of the Bible or Yahweh.

“Read what you are saying. This Bible is supposed to be inerrant Word of God, right? Remember, you started this by implying that you had access to some ‘facts’ that we didn’t have ‘in place.’ Yet, you have just said that we can expect nothing more from the inerrant Word of God than vague references to ‘in the beginning’ or ’some time ago’ or that ‘the universe reached its shape by a process and in different stages’. If God is what he claims to be in the Bible, why not expect more? How long ago? Through what stages?”

Yes, You are right. Indeed I said that the Bible is the inerrent Word of God. Yes, I also did say that science does not have all facts in place as man is still discovering new things about the universe around us every now and then.

I also said you can not expect nothing more from the Bible about the date of the universe except a general reference to it. The Bible was NOT written to tell us about the age of the universe or how the universe functions. The Bible is written to tell us about the spiritual nature of man. The reference about the age of the universe is by the way. It is not in focus. Also one must remember the age of the universe is not particularly relevant when talking about the spiritual nature of man.

I said the Bible says very clearly that the universe reached its present shape thorugh a process and in different stages. To me that is the greatest strength of the Bible. Naturally what one would expect from a bronze-age book is that in a fraction of a second the whole universe came into its present shape. The Bible does not ever say that. In fact scientists are observing in our modern age what the Bible had said thousands of years ago. From an ancient book written about a totally different subject if you expect any thing more than that, I think you are demanding what even a modern University would not demand from one of its students. How long ago, and through what stages the univese came into being is NOT the issue discussed in the Bible. Any reference to such is done just along the way. So please do not expect more from the Bible about that issue. The Bible is inerrent in the spiritual truths it communicates to man. Surely since its author is also the creator of the universe, what ever passing references are there about the universe must also be correct. If science has some disagreement about some issue, science will correct itself later on as science has done in the past.

You again said,
“Isn’t it convenient that these statements could be said by even a bronze-age shaman? It doesn’t take a god to come up with them. God claims to be all knowing and all powerful. Why not tell us what he knows?”

Do you want to know what a bronze-age shaman would have written about the creation of the universe. I quote form Babylonian creation myth for you to read. It came from around the same time as the Bible story. It is usually dated as coming from the 12th centrury BC and the Bible story may be from around the same time as well.

Here is the quote:
“Marduk encircles Tiamat with his net, blows her up with his winds, and shoots “an arrow which pierced her belly, / Split her down the middle and slit her heart” (Dalley 253). After standing on Tiamat’s corpse, he easily defeats the rebel gods, capturing most of them and smashing their weapons. He ties the arms of the monsters and leads them away with nose-ropes. He grabs the Tablet of Destiny away from Kingu and fastens it to his own breast. Marduk then proceeds to create the universe from Tiamat’s body:
He sliced her in half like a fish for drying:
Half of her he put up to roof the sky,
Drew a bolt across and made a guard to hold it.
Her waters he arranged so they could not escape.” (Dalley 255)

I am sure any reader would really see the difference between man-made creation story and the God-inspired one, both coming from the bronze-age. The above material is the typical bronze-age man’s production. If some one does not see the difference between them, I am helpless.

Then you said, “If God really wanted to impress me, he should have put something in the Bible about the structure of DNA or how to construct a TV. No, instead you want me to believe that he chose to be cryptic and to only say things that could just as easily have been said by any Joe-shmo living off of his herd of sheep”

Do you mean to read about electronics in the Bible? I am sorry. You are in the wrong place. Or do you want to read about human physiology? I bet, you need to seek it else where. The Bible talks about the spiritual nature of man and about the moral standards God His creator expects from man for man’s happy survival on earth now and for the eternal status to which man will enter when he leaves this earth. Your demand to read about elctroics and human physilogy in the Bible is like me telling you that in your biology write up I can’nt see any reference to Logarithm and therefore, I will not accept your paper! What ever, as you say Genesis chapter 1 could not have been written by a man living in bronze-age all on his own.

Incidently, talking about DNA code, one of the IT gurus, Perry Marshall thinks that the greatest evidence for the existence of God is found in human DNA code.

Then you said, “By the way, you didn’t answer my question. Minor but important point, if the bible had said ‘5000 years ago’, would you believe it to be true? Or, would you accept the 4.5 billion year date that is currently accepted? This is important and you should consider your answer carefully.”

There is not question of “if the Bible had said” at all. I am absolutely sure you would never find such blatant blunders in the Bible. Should some one point out such, I would wait to see further evidence coming to light. Till then I would continue to trust the Bible. This I do in the light of my personal experiences with and through the Bible. If I am alive today, it is because of the Bible and my trust in its words. Should I throw away the Bible, I will throw away my life itself. It is as clear as that. May God bless you!

You are welcome. I find your apparent lack of ability to discuss this topic rationally fascinating.
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“I have never been a philosopher. I am never good at arguments.”

I agree. You just seem happy to spout the same stories or types of stories over and over without ever attempting to back them up with any sort of rational discussion.
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“I am a Linguist by profession… I am proud to be talking to an evolutionary biologist! Thanks for sparing your precious time for me. Kindly forgive my ignorance in your field of expertise.”

I am sure I would be out of my league attempting to discuss any sort of linquistic topic with you. However, I have no doubt that if I tried to learn the details I could. If you took the time to read and understand evolutionary theory, you could become an expert as well. It is not a mystery, just a field of inquiry as is any other.
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“In your post (41) you say in the first para that the Bible could not be trusted because it came from a primitive age when scientific advance was not there. Yes, indeed, the Bible is an ancient book. But why should we belittle our ancestors? …. Who among us would dare constructing a Hanging Garden now?”

I’m just about ready to give up on this. Are you unwilling or unable to respond to rational arguments rationally? In no way did I belittle anyone. Is it unreasonable to mistrust the interpretations of the physical world when they were made by a group of people who had no understanding of atomic particles, the mechanistics behind lightning, the germ theory of disease? No. Does that mean they are stupid? No. It just means that their interpretations were based on a lack of knowledge and should be treated as such. Would you trust my three-year old son to tell you what lightning is? No, neither would I. He doesn’t have the knowledge to explain it. The ancient Isrealites had no understanding of electrical charges in the clouds either. Yet, you ask me to trust them when they tell me that a sky fairy is responsible for my well-being and/or damnation.
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“My point is that man is a limited being.”

Yes, and you appear to be happy to remain that way by relying on the interpretations of the physical world provided by a group of bronze-age semi-nomads. I, on the other hand, am working to push back those limitations by investigating the world using methods that tell us what objective reality is all about.
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“Each person has limitations….—more personal anecdotes lacking any relevance to the discussion— Would you be able to convince these friends that evil spirits are not real and that there is no spirit world around us?”

Only if they are willing to think rationally, actually THINK about what they believe, and investigate the possibility that they may be wrong. I have done this with regard to religion. I ask you to do it with regard to rationality. Investigate the rational explanations for what you and your friends have “experienced”. Read the what the scientific explanations for them may be. If you are not willing to do that, then I suggest you are not willing to see the world around you and that your faith is meaningless. Do not be afraid of where the search for truth may lead because it is a worthy exercise in itself. If it leads you back to your faith, so be it. But you must be honest in your search. Honest with yourself and others.
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“My point is, ancient men had plenty of time at hand and they were able to delve into the spirit world. Men who got into contact with good spirits and God who is Spirit wrote down their experiences in the Bible for us. AND IT WORKS even today where modern psychiatrists fail!”

Bulls#!t. I defy you to come up with any evidence other than your “personal experiences” to support this statement. Personal experiences are just that – PERSONAL. An understanding of objective reality must be supported by experiences that we can ALL share and observe.
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“David, if you were to make yourself available to contact with the spirit world, I tell you, it is possible for any one…. If you follow other religious books, you could reach their destination. I follow the Bible and I found life to be absolutely satisfying and rewarding in spite of all my physical ill being.”

That is great for you as long as you continue to delude yourself. Wait. Do you see what you just said? “If you follow other religious books, you could reach their destination.” So, are they just as valid as the Bible? Are they “manuals” to reach other gods? According to the Bible, there are no other gods. These books cannot all be true. If they cannot all be true, isn’t it reasonable that none of them may be true?
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“This discussion could go very long. Let me stop for the moment.”

I disagree. This discussion should instead be very short. Your arguments consist solely of “personal experiences”. One personal experience is as good an any other. That is why I and others keep complaining when you bring them up. They are all the same argument or, more accurately, lack of argument. My points consist of well-supported scientific inquiry and I can point to statistically backed experiments THAT CAN BE REPEATED BY INDEPENDENT RESEARCHERS TO OBTAIN THE SAME RESULTS OVER AND OVER AGAIN. Thus, they must REFLECT AN OBJECTIVE REALITY that applies to all of us. Personal experiences are just that – personal. They belong to that one person and are not relevant to my experiences and observations. Do you see the difference?