I’ve often heard the argument that Christians are happier than non-Christians. I’m not sure how that is quantified — I was happy as a Christian, but I’m just as happy now. Perhaps I was a little happier at the beginning of my Christian journey, but that’s normal when you get into something new that you enjoy. I get a little happier when I sit down to a good book or to a good meal, too.
So I’m not convinced Christians are in general happier than skeptics. But let’s say it’s true: does this make Christianity correct? Here is how George Bernard Shaw put it:
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. (The God Delusion, p. 194)
I think we can all agree that the fact that something makes you happy doesn’t make it true or right. Otherwise we’d all be drunkards or drug addicts.
Also, other religions than Christianity make people happy. Does this mean all religions are true and right?
The fact is that Christianity gives people hope. It’s false hope, but some people seem to need it. And if they would be miserable believing reality — that this life is all there is, so we have to make the most of it — then I understand why they would cling to a delusion. I support the freedom of religion and believe it is their right to believe whatever they want.
Just don’t tell me I’m not happy or that I’m going to hell, and not expect me to tear your religion — and thus your false hope — apart.
Debbie: It must be such a rewarding life making others’ lives... 
John C: Anti-no, “I” dont have any credibility either but the difference is that “I”m not... 
Custador: “Matt and Mark record “My God, My God, Why hast Thou forsaken me?”; John, “It is finished”; and Luke,... 
Daniel Florien: When you have indigestion when you’re reading it, you know it’s true! 
Mary Lynne: Hmm – I wonder what a “true fairy tale” would be. Is that like jumbo... 
Antiutopia: John C — Christ himself doesn’t have any credibility with these ignorant morons — do you... 
Uzza: Cool story. It reminds me of Confucius, meeting the mad hermit of Chu, who told him it was... 
72 Comments
I’m about as happy as can be expected…
but I wasn’t when I was around Christians every day. First because the assumptions that filled their discourse stunned me into almost weeping, and secondly because, as an atheist, I wasn’t part of their circles, I didn’t do things their way, I wasn’t involved in things like youth groups and church because of the fundamental danger to all involved that this would present, and so I was always outside the social circle, even though I forged some reasonably good friendships with some individuals. And if that’s the way most Christians see atheists – as individuals cut off from their society, rather than as a group of people in their own right, with their own social organisations – of course they’re going to see us as less happy. It’s not because of our atheism, but because the church is better at providing a social network.
We really should form an overarching skeptical and humanist association with weekly meetings and such…
You can’t believe the happiness and peace a person gets in Christ. I’ll be praying for you.
God bless you. Remember that He loves you and waits for you to come back to Him, even if you dont acknowledge Him.
@simworldnews: Well, since I was a Christian for over 10 years, I do know. Thanks for the prayers (though I doubt you’ll really remember to pray for me), but don’t bother wasting your time. If you don’t believe God would force himself on me, why bother praying for me?
Actually I find I’m much happeir as an atheist than I ever was as a Christian. I find I’m happier not trying to twist myself into a mold that doesn’t fit me, not believing in a system I find archaic, or having to listen to gossiping busybodies who just want to “pray” for me in my “trouble” whatever it may be (Usually something they find sinful). I have a wonderful relationship with a man who isn’t afraid of my brain. I find relationships much better when a self appointed group doesn’t feel the need to tell you “you’re doing it wrong” just because you don’t do it like they do. While I did have a few very good friends while I was a Christian I rather regret the 30 years I wasted trying to “fit in”.
wazza said:
“And if that’s the way most Christians see atheists – as individuals cut off from their society, rather than as a group of people in their own right,…
It’s not just atheists they view that way, it’s anyone who doesn’t go to their particular church. It’s the old “us vs. them” mentality. People naturally group together with others who think and feel the way they do. And in all fairness, it’s not confined to Christians. Any group that makes religion the focus of their lives is going to exclude anyone who does not belong to that religion. I’ve been friendly with Mormons, up until they realized there was no way I was converting. I got dropped like the proverbial hot potato.
The various Christian denominations can’t even get along with eachother, nevermind us godless heathens.
If we become Christians in order to have a happier life, we’re gonna be sorely disappointed somewhere down the road. That’s one of the lies Satan loves to tell people and he’s largely successful at it, isn’t he?
God is not Santa Claus, and He doesn’t exist to make things pleasant for us. He is much more interested in the condition of our souls than He is the condition of our bodies.
“Religion” may teach that going to church brings happiness, but Christianity is about relationship, not religion. Christ alone brings true happiness. The Bible teaches it, and my own experience confirms it. I’m sorry that you have not grasped that truth, but I will be praying that one day you will see.
Nita
http://www.joyouslife.wordpress.com
Re Wazza @1: We really should form an overarching skeptical and humanist association with weekly meetings and such…
You mean something like this? (and the other associated meetups at that account). Getting together with intelligent people once a month over a good beer to discuss books is a hell of a lot more fun thenj church ever was.
Re simworldnews @2: You can’t believe the happiness and peace a person gets in Christ.
You’re right: I can’t believe it because it isn’t true. Any more hard questions? (Sort of ironic getting a religious pitch from a site that promotes a make-believe world. Do I smell a Poe?)
Re joyouslife @6: ….Christianity is about relationship, not religion. Christ alone brings true happiness.
You know, some of us are very familiar with that slogan. It’s not that we haven’t “grasped that truth”, it’s that we tried it and found that, over the long run, it wasn’t particularly better at promoting happiness than anything else. But just as with every failed faith healing, it’s always the fault of the sufferer, not the system, right?
@ joyouslife: What exactly is ‘true’ happiness? I’m reading the words (and checking a dictionary) but there does not appear to be a sensible combination of meanings. Unless we’re referring to ‘true’ in the sense of real / reflecting reality – in the sense that true happiness is happiness that is based on truth. To my knowledge, the existence of god has not been proven so I don’t think this is what you were referring to.
Also, isn’t Christianity about following Christ (god), hence technically a religion? Even if the (modern) focus is on your relationship with a triplet-deity.
I’m sorry that you have not grasped the truth (of using accepted definitions instead of trying to redefine things), but I will be sinning that one day you will see. (I’ve honestly little interest in insulting you, but I REALLY hate this form of passive-aggressive assertion. (’I know I’m correct, you can’t see this, I’ll perform a somewhat sacred act that you’ll agree with me’))
I wonder if the idea that religion makes people happy isn’t affected by the problem of self-reporting. Most religions have an implicit or explicit premise that the religion is both true and it makes people happy. So if you admit you’re not happy, you’re also admitting you’re a non-believer (to some people at least) and thus opening oneself up to ostracism and other unpleasant social pressures. Not to mention that people don’t often demonstrate high independence of thought–I for one find it easy to imagine that many people might say and even believe they are happy when they are not simply because that’s what they think is supposed to be the case.
I’ve also heard second hand reports of people who, upon becoming unbelievers, expressed relief that they didn’t have to fake being happy anymore (my paraphrasing based on my dim recollection). Second-hand anecdotes aren’t much to go on, though.
I’ll echo Proto’s distaste with the passive aggressive “it’s not a religion, it’s a relationship” mantra cropping up in many modern Xtians. Do they really think that by simply denying that they are a religion, then “Hey Presto!” they can ignore all criticisms of religion?
Spare me the pitiful semantics. The relationship claimed is no different from that between any other believer and their god(s). Of course, the Xtians think it’s different because, obviously, theirs is the One True Faith (TM). But, to anyone who hasn’t drunk the Kool-Aid, it’s a transparent attempt at special pleading.
@Baka@ Well if you look at thejoyouslife blog it’s seems relatively apparent that Nita belongs to the school of thought that decides on the answer first and then looks around for facts to back them up and failing finding facts just put something in place that supports your idea. The current comment of the causes of the the Second World War are laughable in their lack of historical knowledge – apparently it was all down to pacifism although the obvious thrust of the argument is that military force is right and it’s the “liberal ways” that cause all the problems.
It’s all about the reinforcement of the community. The church promises happiness if people follow Da Rulez, so there’s a vested interest in appearing to be happy.
I think wazza@#1 put it best for me.
But, besides the social aspect of church (or equivalent) being what people are drawn to, I think religion gives people a scapegoat for ultimate responsibility in their lives.
Think about how so many people ‘find god’ when they are about to die, or when something life changing happens to them. I see it as the ultimate relief of feeling pressure to fullfill ones fate or destiny. It’s the ultimate cop out.
I can’t imagine the sense of calming and relief that sort of blissful delusion must bring someone. But knowing about it ‘from the outside’, I don’t want to feel false security.
Most of the Christians I know are stressed out and worried about overprotecting their kids from non-threats. They live in fear and guilt. They want to embrace our “inclusive” homeschool group, but their judgmental attitude gets the better of them. They talk a good game of accepting and loving, then they talk behind the backs of the people who they claim to accept. They form little secret groups so they don’t have to be exposed to new ideas.
They want everyone to read info about their churches and their religions, but they don’t want to see anything posted that might offend them. They make sure to type the word CHRISTmas with half caps, not accepting that the winter holiday existed long before the Christian church sought to destroy the pagan beliefs that created it.
Certainly this is not true of all the Christians I know, but I would say the majority of them put on a big happy joyous face “Oh, I’m so righteous!”, but underneath they are full of guilt, judgment of others and the stress of organized religion.
I am much, much happier as an atheist than I ever was as a Christian. I no longer have to worry what an angry invisible man thinks of me. I no longer have to be ashamed that I enjoy sex with beautiful women or the consumption of alcohol. I am free simply to be who I am and to enjoy my life without agonizing over whether I am living up to an imaginary standard of perfection. Ironically, I have actually come closer to that standard as an atheist than I ever did while I believed in Christ – it’s amazing how easy it is to do, or stop doing, something when you don’t think you’re going to hell over it. It kind of deflates the thing – makes it easier to cope with.
@Daniel Florien – someday you may be interested in telling the story of my miraculous recovery from addiction that was made possible only when I abandoned faith in Christ and embraced atheism and rational thought. It’s not exactly an epic tale of love and healing or any of that crap, but it is true.
Well, I would assume the xtians are suffering from dopamine overloads. We all “know” ignorance is bliss, right? ;)
Here is an article I found:
Why Atheists, Agnostics, and Skeptics Find Joy in a Godless Existence
It’s impossible to count how many times atheists, agnostics, secularists and freethinkers are told by religious folks of various faiths that we will regret our ‘godless’ or ‘sinful’ life sooner or later. I can honestly say I haven’t had any regrets for my decision to trade in what I perceived to be the miseries of traditional Catholicism for the pleasures of freethinking. Since no regrets have surfaced in the twenty-five years that have elapsed since making my secular choice, I doubt they will surface any time soon.
Theists often write and speak of the wonders and happiness their religion provides, citing miracles, doing good works for others, and security in the belief that they’ll ascend into a place called Heaven when their lives end. I have no doubts they’re sincere, and if this is what truly makes them happy, then it’s a good choice for them.
However, what many theists tend to overlook, either by accident or by design, is that atheists and agnostics are just as happy, and can find the same joy in our world without following a particular faith.
Most of us have been asked at some point what pleasure can we have in such a ‘godless’ existence. What happiness can we hope to find without a particular faith or god to guide us? Since there’s no one-size-fits-all answer, I can only explain the pleasures of life I experience myself, as spiritual outlooks vary from person to person.
Pleasure #1 – Kindness
A common misconception that many theists labor under is the belief that the only kind people are those who follow a particular god or religion. To this, any atheist or freethinker with common sense will no doubt reply ‘rubbish.’ British philosopher Bertrand Russell, a well-known secularist himself, made the following statement in his essay ‘The Faith of a Rationalist:’ “Men tend to have the beliefs that suit their passions. Cruel men believe in a cruel god and use their belief to excuse cruelty. Only kindly men believe in a kindly god, and they would be kindly in any case.” In other words, one doesn’t have to believe in a god to be a kind person. Many atrocities in past history have clearly demonstrated that religion and kindness were worlds apart.
Pleasure #2 – Knowledge
It is well known that traditional and fundamentalist religions place certain restrictions on the kinds of knowledge their members are allowed to pursue. Traditional Catholic and conservative Christian parents tend to isolate their children from their secular peers as much as possible so no “unwelcome elements” are allowed in. As a result, these children grow up ignorant in many things, which may severely limit them in terms of finding suitable employment when it is time for them to look for jobs. Some extremist faiths keep their girls and women ignorant of almost everything, believing that the only suitable occupations for women are marriage and motherhood. We have no such restrictions. In fact, we are free to obtain knowledge on any subject we want, to use for our benefit and often the benefit of others too.
Pleasure #3 – Happiness
What happiness would this be? This is simple; that which comes from the absence of stresses, anxieties, and worries burdening people who don’t have the freedom to make their own life decisions. For example, a couple with no ties to a conservative church or faith can decide for themselves whether they will become parents or not, and if they choose parenthood, how many children they can comfortably manage and afford. A traditional Catholic or conservative Christian couple generally feel they have no choice in the matters of sex and reproduction. Their faith demands that all sex must be ‘open to life.’ In other words, it means that sex must lead to children sooner or later, and preferably sooner.
If a couple is financially strapped with just the two of them working, things are going to get a lot worse when one or two children enter the marriage, especially if the wife’s income has to be sacrificed to become a stay-home mom. The husband may have to work one or two jobs to make ends meet after the wife’s income is lost, resulting in his being away from home more often and spending less time with the children he has. However, all of that means nothing to their church.
Obedience to the faith is the church’s primary concern, not the physical, emotional and financial comfort of individuals. I can’t imagine anything more unhappy for a married couple than having to bear more children than they can handle, both physically and financially. For a child growing up in such a home, maybe resented because she’s ‘another mouth to feed,’ chances for happiness are slim to none. For the Catholic church and other conservative faiths, personal happiness isn’t on the priority list for children or adults.
Pleasure #4 – Choice
Anyone who has voluntarily left Catholicism and other conservative faiths will no doubt cite lack of freedom to make individual choices as one of their chief reasons for seeking a different path. I was no exception. In my personal experience, there was no pleasure in being told that I would have to remain celibate until marriage, even if for some reason I chose never to marry. I didn’t see the point of having the church decide the circumstances under which I could have sex, whether it be as a single or married person. I thought it both absurd and intrusive that a church had the arrogance to tell me I should never use certain kinds of birth control to prevent pregnancy. Or that I couldn’t indulge in certain sexual acts that avoided pregnancy altogether.
Since I valued my freedom more than observing the arbitrary and cruel rules of Catholicism, secularism was by far the better choice.
Pleasure #5 – Power
Having the freedom to control our own destiny is very powerful indeed. Whether we use that power wisely is entirely up to us. We can use it to make good choices in life to benefit ourselves and others. Conservative religious leaders often argue that power should only be in their hands, and we must trust them to use the power they have for our benefit. What a terrible idea! Too often in past history, leaders such as Adolf Hitler and Josef Stalin have used this power for cruel and terrible purposes. Those who trusted them paid the ultimate price, by sacrificing their own lives.
To surrender the power we have to others is a dangerous course of action, especially when leaders tend to have only their best interests at heart, not ours. Of course we’ll stumble and make bad choices sometimes, as a result of keeping our personal power. But we still must keep it ourselves, not hand it over to ‘leaders’ without question. We cannot, as Benjamin Franklin warned us against, give up our personal liberty to have a little safety. When we do, we usually end up losing both.
Pleasure #6 – Health
When we are free to make our own choices in life — within the bounds of secular law that is — we are in fact very healthy, both in body and in spirit. We don’t have priests or pastors looking over our shoulders telling us that what we are doing is ‘wrong’. We aren’t forced to attend church, since there are no civil laws on the books saying that church is a must on Sunday. Therefore, our Sundays are free to use as we choose, whether it’s to stay home and read a good book, indulge in wild, unrestrained sex with our spouses or significant others, have lunch in a good restaurant, or go to the beach in the summertime. We can dress in our nicest clothes, or wear little or no clothing at all. Naturally, the last option assumes we’re in the privacy of our homes at the time.
Pleasure #7 – Tolerance
The final pleasure of freethinking, as I see it, is the freedom to tolerate and accept philosophical or religious differences. Every secularist I’ve known is perfectly happy to allow others the liberty to practice their own faith or philosophy, as long as those others aren’t insisting we must trade our beliefs for theirs. Hard-line theists insist that secularism will eventually lead to anarchy. A few believe we already have it. If that is the case, I haven’t noticed.
Law breakers come in all shapes, sizes, philosophies and religions. Meaning some criminals will be atheists, while others won’t. Speaking for myself, I haven’t had as much as a traffic ticket, let alone committed a major crime. So let’s put the absurd notion that a theist is a better citizen than an atheist or secularist to rest, since there’s absolutely no truth in it.
Personally, I consider the pleasures of atheism to be far more effective as teaching tools than the ‘seven deadly sins’ associated with conservative and fundamentalist religions. The words kindness, knowledge, happiness, choice, power, health and tolerance reflect a far more positive outlook on life than the negative thoughts associated with ‘deadly sin.’ To atheists and secularists around the globe, they come together to shine on the most important pleasure; freedom. Is there anything better in the world to have?
The purpose of most all religions is for people to live happier lives. Religions are developed by humans and not necessarily a manifestation of God. They are just a vehicle.
Some are driving Yugos and some solid gold Cadillacs.
Even with all the seeming unecessary rules and exploitation religions want to place on us, we as thinking people can only try to make our lives and the religious community around us happier and “closer to God” in spite of the hinderances religion places on us. It helps to have a knowledge of what the ancient texts of these religions actually teach, so we aren’t just rejecting a humans take on what a meaningful pursuit of God and happiness is, out of ignorance.
But how can a pursuit of God be meaningful if God doesn’t exist?
In any case, I’ve found that atheists tend to know religions better than the religious. In some cases, deeper study of religion has led to atheism.
I knew someone would catch on that “pursuit of God” statement . So lets just call it pusuit of happiness.
Most religious people should see synonimity between Pursuit of God,Closer to God, and happiness. The trick is in keeping the trees from obscuring the forest.
Doing no harm to others should also be foundational. Figure that one out. We all need mercy.
ah, but many religions advocate making things worse to bring you close to god
things like fasting, flagellation, crawling on your knees to a holy place instead of just walking…
don’t confuse being closer to god and being happy. For most religions, they’re exactly opposite.
Happiness, as objectivelly meassured–insofar ad that is possible to meassure– is increased by religion in general. However, there are other objective things that increase happiness, such as exercise and a healthy sex life, and good friends. I find that the rituals of religion offer some peace and hapiness as they happen, but also anxiety and fear of the “big brother” looking over your shoulder.
Activities such as fasting and other sacrifices have usually been implemented to break our ties to our flesh or bodily drives and to the world or what is seen as a system of lower pusuits such as the drive for money ,power or what is attractive to our eyes.
It is also called being set apart or holy and by lessening the influence of the lower drives in our life can for many bring them more happiness. They are rituals used by many religions and cultures, past and present, for clarifying values.
They are usually only events in a persons journey usually not a lifestyle unless your a cloistered monk or yogi.
Murrow: how is anything you’ve said in any way an excuse for selling sacrifices like that as a path to happiness?
Sacrifices, yes… but sacrifices that mean something. Giving to charity, working to help people… it teaches you the true value of things, clears your mind, AND gives you a warm fuzzy feeling. Flagellation just gives you welts.
Mmm, flagellation. Since the 70’s, the only widespread usage of flagellation has been in sadomasochistic and religious exercises. I think religion and the BDSM scene have a lot in common.
I owned all of The Flagellations vinyl LP’s in the 70’s. They rocked!
Not to be confused with The Flatuations.
I hear the price of flagellations is going up, thanks to the flagellation cartel. I don’t want to go through another flagelation embargo like we had in the past. Lines around the block just to get flagellations.
I feel atheists are probably less happy than deists. Because deists can look at the world and say “It’s all proceeding according to X’s plan.” And pass by, happy and self-deluded.
Atheists look and say “That sucks! Someone needs to DO something about that.”
And since they have no god to pass the buck to, they realize that, in important matters, “someone” means “me”.
To Daniel Florien,
Simworldnews is right, I personally get a lot of enjoyment out of christianity. Even though im not that popular, and im normally left out of the popular Cliques at my youth group, i find friends that are more like me and who have interests that liken to mine. Dependant on the person, they will have a different view on christianity.Even though you say your an athiest, that doesnt mean that you have lost all of your belief in a higher being, it just means that your taking a outside view of the christian religion. This outside view can be incredibly helpful in figuring out what to believe in, just look at the famed Aplologist C.S. Lewis, he was a strong athiest, and then found christianity to be true. (for all of you who didnt know, Chronicals of Narnia is christian).
oh and even if simworldnews forgets to pray, Ill do it too.
Thanks guys you really helped me in my Apologetics essay
@Daedalus: I assure you, I’ve lost all faith in a higher being.
I’m an atheist and I am not happy. You want to know why? Because of all the stupidity I have to put up with from all the ridiculous believers all over the place. Because there is a culture war going on every single day between sensibility and fantasy. Because a long time ago, I married a nutcase Christian, had 4 kids with her, and because of my own personal weaknesses and her bull-headedness, she gets to raise my 4 kids in her nutcase, born-again, stupid religion and there ain’t crap I can do about it.
Because my beautiful 16-year-old daughter, who I love more than anything, believes that she is happy because of Jesus and I am unhappy because I don’t have Jesus. That’s why I am unhappy.
Don’t worry, Grumpy– she’ll be 18 in two years, and you can start a discussion with her then on the fallacies of religion. Assuming she’ll go to college, that’ll help too. Encourage her to take philosophy courses– that’ll force her to really think about her position!!!
hello my name is scott.. i am a christian.. Christianity is about accepting Jesus as the only way to true life and the love he has for us. When i share Christ with non-believers im not putting them down or looking down on there life b/c Christ didn’t look down on the non-believer .. im simply sharing the love of Christ with them. my soul and my life is no more important than a non-believers. I have such a deep peace in Christ. It would be like if u were the only one to know a nuke was going to go off in ur town and u knew of a bomb shelter. and nobody else knew.. now the right thing would be to tell as many ppl as u could that there is a bomb going to kill everyone.. You can tell them that there is a bomb coming and invite them into the bomb shelter but if they say no then thats there choice.. and believe me it would break my heart to see someone die senselessly. (i hope the bomb thing made sense) So all im saying is that there is a heaven and a hell.. i would hate to see anyone go to hell. The Christian is suppose to help his fellow man. Christians are called to help the needy, the sick, the starving, the lost, the broken hearted.. its not about works or earning your way into heaven..its about a deep love of Christ and his love working thru you to help others. and lets say that i am wrong and there is no heaven or hell.. then at least my whole life was dedicated to helping others. but lets say i am right and i live an idle life outside of Christ and there really is a hell, thats alot to gamble. yes everyone has short comings and flaws..that goes for me too.. yes i am a sinner.. i struggle everyday to not fall back into sin.. such as backbiting, drugs, gossip, and living a selfish life. but Christ gives me the strength to go thru each day living the best i can for Him. being a Christian does not make me better than the non-Christian.. all it means is i have excepted Christ to be my savior and that he is the only way to heaven..and i live my life to help others see His love.. all u have to do is accept Him and thats it..then ill see u in heaven God bless and i really will pray for everyone on this forum to see his deep love and peace that u can only get thru Christ.. life is hard i struggle everyday.. but i have peace and joy even in the hard times and i would love for everyone to have the same love, joy and peace as i do.
As Scott says, Jesus is the only, the one, way to eternal life. I understand that this may not matter to an atheist, who believes only in humanity and not in a higher being. This is one of Satan’s greatest lies: that there is no God. That’s Satan’s goal: to be better than God, so he puts God down. And, what better way to put God down that to say He’s nothing. Unfortunately for Satan, and all those who believe Satan’s lies, this will lead to eternal damnation.
God only wants us to relate to Him. Read the book “The Shack.” God only wants us to acknowledge that He is our Creator and to live in harmony with others and with Him as He originally planned it. Satan made us, through his tempation of Eve and Adam, put ourselves before God in an attempt to distract us from God and His plan.
I’m a Christian and happy in the long-term that I will live eternally with God. In everyday life, I screw up and can be unhappy, for I am human. But, because I’m a Christian, and Jesus died sinless for my sins and rose again as a conqueror over Satan’s plan of death, I, too, can rose over my humanity and shortcomings and know that I am eternally saved.
I wonder if you atheists are truly at peace with your future. If not, please pick up a Bible and read the Book of John.
Can you provide even a modicum of evidence for your claims?
Also, I suggest you pick up Plato’s Republic.. it’ll surprise you how many ideas that you think are original predate Christianity by 500 years…
Hey girl, hope you are well, at peace…blessings.
I am well… applying to Duke this summer! How are you, my Texan friend? :)
Good for you, let us know how it turns out. I’m good thx…I’m always good! lol
Of course I will! :) I’m applying to their science and literature program… I’ve definitely go the background for it! I’ve been emailing some professors in the program and getting some positive responses! It’s looking good, but I don’t want to jinx it! (Ha! Not so rational sometimes!) :)
Please read The Holy Bible and Josh McDowell’s “Evidence that Demands a Verdict.”
I’ve read both… neither gives a convincing argument. Sorry.
I am asking you for specific evidence– and the evidence must be verifiable. Got any?
This is not a debate. The answer is already given. I need no more evidence than the organized construction of the world itself, for the rocks and trees themselves reveal His wondrous power; the Word of God; and a risen Lord Jesus Christ. No person can come to the Father but by Jesus Christ. There is no more evidence nor argument needed. I have shared my faith with you and have invited you to open your heart, to save your eternal soul. God will be the final judge.
You’re right. It’s not a debate. You’re spouting pseudoscience, I’m quoting scientific fact.
The world does not appear designed. In fact is appears as science has described it– an evolving world in which living organisms adapt to survive.
Also, you’re extremely arrogant if you think you’ve got the *truth*. All you’ve got is a musty old book full of stolen ideas.
If you can’t summarize arguments from your truth source then you probably haven’t sufficiently thought through counter arguments to said source. If you accept McDowell’s positions you should at least be able to tell us what one of them is and back it up with some evidence.
“God only wants us to acknowledge that He is our Creator and to live in harmony with others and with Him as He originally planned it.”
Except those that get a bit uppity who he’ll kill — that’s real justice for you. Also why is god so insecure that we have to acknowledge his existence otherwise he will place us in hell for eternity?
Cuz His existence, is your existence. There is only One Life in the entire universe, He IS Life. He is…all in all. There is no true separation forever, everything returns to its true, original state or origin.
My answers — no it’s not; no there isn’t; no he’s not; no he’s not; no there’s not; possibly.
Because He created us to relate to Him and we (Adam and Eve, our ancestors) turned their backs on His commands. It’s not insecurity, it’s love. He does not demand anything, but He wishes for us to love and relate to Him, just as you wish to be loved and love in return and have relationship with other people. This is how we were created: in His image. But, if he demanded us to love Him robotically, He would not actually be loving us in return, but dictating to us.
So, God is love, and just wants you to love Him and others, and the eternal reward is life in Heaven with Him and those like Him and us who follow Him. The eternal punishment for turning a back on His love is Hell.
It’s a choice-point for you.
There’s your problem. You actually believe that the Adam and Eve mythology is a history lesson. Can you actually say honestly that you experience zero cognitive dissonance when studying the Garden of Eden story?
I hate to disagree with you, but…. We are nothing like god. Because of two people ( Adam and Eve) and thier original sin, all of humanity it born into sin by defualt. Sounds like a very clever way of controling people to me.
Sorry, that was supposed to be a coment to Jesusislord.
If you’re curious read J.R.R. Tolkien’s “Silmarillion” as an allegory to the creation story. Note the similarity between Sauron and Satan and his jealousy that elves were made for the glory of higher beings.
I’m only referencing fantasy/fiction here because it may help you to understand that Adam and Eve are not mythology. And, if they are mythological, they still capture the essence of each of your comments: you are unwilling to submit to God because you, like all sinful man, including myself, is selfish. You talk about control because you do not wish to submit or be controlled.
But, there is freedom in Christ. We who accept Christ as Lord are forgiven, not perfect, just forgiven, and will live eternally in Heaven. I sincerely hope that your eternity is not Hell, for that is where those who refuse to submit and acknowledge the Lordship of Jesus Christ will live eternally.
This is the point: refuse to honor God, and you will die in Hell. This is not myth; this is Truth.
There is absolutely NO freedom in Christianity. It is TOTALLY about social control. After all, Jesus himself called you a sheeple. Go ahead sheeple, follow your shepherd…
:(
Also if it is truth, you have the onus of verifying it on you. And pointing to your bible doesn’t count. I could write down that a flying purple people eater exists and then point to my writing as authority and prove as much as you do.
In reply to LRA, I have no onus to prove anything. History proves Jesus’ resurrection and Nature proves God’s Power. Who’s to say God didn’t use evolution to develop the world as we know it today? Can you “prove” otherwise?
If you need proof, ask God to prove it to you. Pray not half-heartedly, but expecting an answer, and God will prove it to you and give you the opportunity, if you’re really searching.
Otherwise, the Bible is not musty in my house. At the very least, I have a code of living that is proven to be healthier physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually, than what much of what the “world” offers. At the very least, when I die, I am assured of living eternally in happiness. Should you reject this, you risk Hell. I’d rather be a follower of the Great Shepherd than be in Hell for eternity.
Again, simple child-like faith in the Truth is all that is required. The arrogance is Man assuming there is no God. The arrogance is Man leaning on his/her own understanding when there is so much more in the spiritual realm to be understood.
“I think we can all agree that the fact that something makes you happy doesn’t make it true or right. Otherwise we’d all be drunkards or drug addicts.”
I beg to differ. I know plenty of people who wouldn’t agree.
I am one of the people who don’t agree, but I think that was a bad example used to support a good point. “Just because it makes you feel good, doesn’t mean it’s true.”
Case & point: plenty of people lie to themselves to make themselves feel good. A diametric opposition to truth. If that made any sense?…
I’m sorry, I don’t understand, what is your case in point? That false is the opposite of true?
I think the point of the article is “sure religion makes people happy, but that doesn’t mean it’s true, and that doesn’t preclude other sources of happiness, so don’t tell me I can’t be happy without religion”. Do you disagree with any part of this message?
“…and ‘religion makes people feel good’ is not a strong defense against opposition to religion.” Missed one :)
No dissagreement. People can be happy without professing religion. Many people are happier without religion. Mostly because they feel restrained and unsatisfied with what their religion might “provide” or whatever. Can’t blame ‘em. I’d be unhappy, too, if religion left me wanting and it held me back. Mine doesn’t; therefore I’m completely satisfied and liberated. I’m sure people fell that, maybe not in the same way as me, without religion.
It is very hard to suppress the urge to proselytize, at the risk of being called evangelical. The sense of relief, even over things I didn’t realize I was worried about, is profound. And that’s just one of many deep and wonderful emotions I felt at the realization that Yahweh and Allah are exactly as imaginary as Santa Claus and Zeus. It’s obvious to me now that religions are just superstition, but it wasn’t obvious before, and I’m still trying to figure out what it was specifically that made it obvious to me. I wish I could bottle it and give it to you.
I find the promise of religious enlightenment or transcendence or satisfaction or liberation to be petty at best. These things can be based in reality, in truth. Who would want them from something artificial?
I realize you’ll consider my conviction to be the same as yours and everyone who has ever professed it. This is deeply frustrating.
I will never mention any of this in a debate of any kind.
“It is very hard to suppress the urge to proselytize, at the risk of being called evangelical.”
In my book, trying to get people to see what you believe is truth, isn’t a bad thing unless you just shove it in their faces. Go ahead and say what you’re thinking. I want to know.
“I find the promise of religious enlightenment or transcendence or satisfaction or liberation to be petty at best. ”
It would require a loaded response to cover that.
“I realize you’ll consider my conviction to be the same as yours and everyone who has ever professed it.”
I don’t think I get what you mean.
***Just so you know, I try not to make assumptions, so If you want to make a point clear to me, you’re gonna have to really spell it out, unless you want to be bombarded with questions. Lol. I still have a developing brain, so my thought process is incomplete.
Well, I mean, my conviction that “no gods exist” is the truth and “gods exist” is a lie, which you no doubt file in the same mental bin with all the other claims to truth. The frustrating part is that I can’t really fault you for it, of course you would. But I think there is a fundamental difference between the claim “this religion is true and those religions are false” and the claim “all religions are false”. You don’t see the difference, and I’m not sure exactly how to communicate it. Also, my claim is supported by evidence; not just a piece here or there locked away in a vault, but mountains, oceans, tidal waves of evidence… which is apparently never good enough.
I suspect that the specific thing that made it obvious to me was not any particular piece of evidence or any particular argument framed in a particular way, but the internal decision to look squarely into the abyss, to look at the question “is there a God?” honestly. Then everything made it obvious.
Idk why, but I’m not really getting this. It’s never this hard for me to understand something, yet your comment just flew over my head. I’m sorry. I really don’t know why I can’t soak it up.
“Also, my claim is supported by evidence; not just a piece here or there locked away in a vault, but mountains, oceans, tidal waves of evidence… which is apparently never good enough”
Evidence has and never will be enough for anyone, not even a flaming atheist like Richard Dawkins. Not dissing him, not saying he’s a liar. I’m just saying that it’s human nature to want more. No matter how convinced a person is by solid evidence, they will want more than that. It’s unavoidable.
“I suspect that the specific thing that made it obvious to me was not any particular piece of evidence or any particular argument framed in a particular way, but the internal decision to look squarely into the abyss, to look at the question “is there a God?” honestly. Then everything made it obvious.”
Can you tell me what made you decide to “look into the abyss”? I just want to understand where you’re coming from.
To be completely honest, atm, I am soooo overwhelmed with questions, I’m to the point of completely isolating myself from human communication until I sort them out. Not exaggerating. i can’t even sort out my thoughts to make a comprehendable response to this. I’m not the kind of person who just stops functioning, or has breakdowns. I NEVER get so mentally clogged that I can’t even write. NEVER. Yet here I am, not being able to write a comprehendable response, at the verge of tears because of so many things that are going on with friends and family. Sorry if I’m venting, but I want you to know that there’s a legit reason I’m not making ANY sense.
Anyways, go to http://iwant2knowyourstory.blogspot.com/ . And yes, I know it’s very primal. I made it because it’s the only truly effective way I’ve ever been able to understand people. Please write your story.
I had to type and retype this like 20 times to make it just this comprehendable. I’m going to bed…
A little latin for whoever reads this:
Aequam memento rebus in arduis servare mentem. ( Remember when life’s path is steep, keep your mind even)
–Horace
Easier said than done ;)
Arg! I just took like an hour trying to put together a response and I just lost the typing! *sigh* Oh well… I’m completely bombarded with personal stuff atm, so it’s really hard to focus enough to comprehend and respond to this. Sorry. I really want to. I’ll try to get back to this asap.
A little Latin for whoever reads this:
Aequam memento rebus in arduis servare mentem. (Remember when life’s path is steep, keep your mind even.)
–Horace
That was supposed to be a reply to rodney’s comment above. Oops.
I usually type forum posts/comments in a separate application, like Notepad, for this reason among others.
Well nvm. It the comment shows up now. So confusing… I guess I’m gonna blame it on the internet connection. Or maybe I’m going crazy and was hallucinating. Either way, TGIF! W00t!