Comments on: Hitchens on the Morals of an Atheist http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/01/08/hitchens-on-the-morals-of-an-atheist/ Reasonable Thoughts on Religion, Science, Skepticism, and Atheism Sat, 21 Nov 2009 05:46:43 -0500 hourly 1 By: MrGravy http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/01/08/hitchens-on-the-morals-of-an-atheist/#comment-9155 MrGravy Wed, 21 Jan 2009 16:52:30 +0000 http://unreasonablefaith.com/?p=1635#comment-9155 LH, you succinctly summarise the source of all religion when you say: "All this metaphysical babble is pointless word gymnastics and only serve to reveal their lack of knowledge about modern systems science." Religion is the result of fear and misunderstanding, the people who assembled the various religious dogmas lived in a universe they could not possibly understand, or even contemplate. As Mr. Hitchens points out in his book, the time has now come where even the most simple amongst us have access to the sort of knowledge which allows us to see through the myths, stories and lies of religion. LH, you succinctly summarise the source of all religion when you say:

“All this metaphysical babble is pointless word gymnastics and only serve to reveal their lack of knowledge about modern systems science.”

Religion is the result of fear and misunderstanding, the people who assembled the various religious dogmas lived in a universe they could not possibly understand, or even contemplate. As Mr. Hitchens points out in his book, the time has now come where even the most simple amongst us have access to the sort of knowledge which allows us to see through the myths, stories and lies of religion.

]]> By: moralitywithoutgod http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/01/08/hitchens-on-the-morals-of-an-atheist/#comment-9154 moralitywithoutgod Wed, 14 Jan 2009 00:36:08 +0000 http://unreasonablefaith.com/?p=1635#comment-9154 Love it. I think this is at the heart of most religious views of atheism. Without God, people would be raving, immoral lunatics - or so they think. Our family makes a point of living a highly "moral" lifestyle - manners, kindness to others, civic service, strong character (interesting - some views of what morality represents could vary wildly) etc. all without God. Our Christian acquaintances assume we have Jesus in our hearts, but in reality we have reason, and know that without the basic tenets of "morality," -those things that make living with other human beings possible and positive (sometimes)- we cannot function or hope to continue as a human race. It's liberating to live morality without God. Our morality is true and genuine, because we are doing what we do for the goodwill of our fellow humans without the assumption that we'll secure a ticket to a heavenly afterlife. Love it. I think this is at the heart of most religious views of atheism. Without God, people would be raving, immoral lunatics – or so they think. Our family makes a point of living a highly “moral” lifestyle – manners, kindness to others, civic service, strong character (interesting – some views of what morality represents could vary wildly) etc. all without God. Our Christian acquaintances assume we have Jesus in our hearts, but in reality we have reason, and know that without the basic tenets of “morality,” -those things that make living with other human beings possible and positive (sometimes)- we cannot function or hope to continue as a human race. It’s liberating to live morality without God. Our morality is true and genuine, because we are doing what we do for the goodwill of our fellow humans without the assumption that we’ll secure a ticket to a heavenly afterlife.

]]> By: LH http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/01/08/hitchens-on-the-morals-of-an-atheist/#comment-9153 LH Mon, 12 Jan 2009 09:32:04 +0000 http://unreasonablefaith.com/?p=1635#comment-9153 I'm tired of hearing that same ridiculous argument about how materialism fails to account for organization simply because subatomic particles move randomly. It's greedy reductionism and fallacy of composition at its very worst. Randomness doesn't equate evenness. To take just one example - van der Waals forces. Is Robinson aware of how randomly this force arises, how weak it is at the atomic level, but yet how strong it is at the cellular level? It is also wrong to assume that system level properties are simply the additive properties of components. Once a system is established, it can exhibit top-down feedback control to the component level, constraining their behaviour. You don't have to look at complex vertebrates like human beings to see this happening - look at the coordinated behaviour of slime molds and multicellular bacteria! Indeed, higher level systems behaviour such as minds and "souls" are emergent from component interactions, but they not created without material components. If they believe in the existence of the supernatural so much why not simply assemble purely supernatural systems without material parts? How about a supernatural supercomputer that can fit in your pocket? Or supernatural machines that can replace amputated limbs and broken spines? All this metaphysical babble is pointless word gymnastics and only serve to reveal their lack of knowledge about modern systems science. I’m tired of hearing that same ridiculous argument about how materialism fails to account for organization simply because subatomic particles move randomly.

It’s greedy reductionism and fallacy of composition at its very worst.

Randomness doesn’t equate evenness. To take just one example – van der Waals forces. Is Robinson aware of how randomly this force arises, how weak it is at the atomic level, but yet how strong it is at the cellular level?

It is also wrong to assume that system level properties are simply the additive properties of components. Once a system is established, it can exhibit top-down feedback control to the component level, constraining their behaviour.

You don’t have to look at complex vertebrates like human beings to see this happening – look at the coordinated behaviour of slime molds and multicellular bacteria!

Indeed, higher level systems behaviour such as minds and “souls” are emergent from component interactions, but they not created without material components.

If they believe in the existence of the supernatural so much why not simply assemble purely supernatural systems without material parts?

How about a supernatural supercomputer that can fit in your pocket? Or supernatural machines that can replace amputated limbs and broken spines?

All this metaphysical babble is pointless word gymnastics and only serve to reveal their lack of knowledge about modern systems science.

]]> By: cooledskin http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/01/08/hitchens-on-the-morals-of-an-atheist/#comment-9152 cooledskin Sat, 10 Jan 2009 22:54:28 +0000 http://unreasonablefaith.com/?p=1635#comment-9152 Hitchens is very bright, and he likes to use facts. What I don't like is that he failed to point out the problems inherent in Robinson's questions. I suppose he assumed that we're all intelligent enough to see them... But some people aren't. I appreciate that he was tackling them questions from within the parameters they set forth (no small task), but breaking that intellectual "fourth wall" would have also been valuable. Robinson makes me a little nauseous. Hitchens is very bright, and he likes to use facts. What I don’t like is that he failed to point out the problems inherent in Robinson’s questions. I suppose he assumed that we’re all intelligent enough to see them… But some people aren’t. I appreciate that he was tackling them questions from within the parameters they set forth (no small task), but breaking that intellectual “fourth wall” would have also been valuable.

Robinson makes me a little nauseous.

]]> By: Jim http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/01/08/hitchens-on-the-morals-of-an-atheist/#comment-9151 Jim Sat, 10 Jan 2009 00:21:57 +0000 http://unreasonablefaith.com/?p=1635#comment-9151 “Religion often has the affect of making very intelligent, very sensitive people talk in a most terrible form… ... of piffle." Great quote. Great interview. I also appreciated that the interviewer actually had two brain cells to rub together and could manage to even *slightly* stand up to the intellectual dominance of Hitchens. “Religion often has the affect of making very intelligent, very sensitive people talk in a most terrible form…

… of piffle.”

Great quote. Great interview. I also appreciated that the interviewer actually had two brain cells to rub together and could manage to even *slightly* stand up to the intellectual dominance of Hitchens.

]]> By: chris reeves http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/01/08/hitchens-on-the-morals-of-an-atheist/#comment-9150 chris reeves Sat, 10 Jan 2009 00:21:45 +0000 http://unreasonablefaith.com/?p=1635#comment-9150 What a genius! Hitchens speaks the truth. What a genius! Hitchens speaks the truth.

]]> By: Grimalkin http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/01/08/hitchens-on-the-morals-of-an-atheist/#comment-9149 Grimalkin Fri, 09 Jan 2009 16:55:08 +0000 http://unreasonablefaith.com/?p=1635#comment-9149 That was awful. Hitchens hardly answered any of the guy's questions at all. Even when he did actually stay on topic, it was all poorly constructed. Had I watched that as a Christian, I would have shaken my head and the sleazy-looking drunk guy who mumbles a lot and can't seem to answer any questions. The only bit he did relatively well was when asked about Stalin & co. Even then, though, he didn't follow his arguments through to their conclusions. He left is all vague, allowing the interviewer (and me) wondering if he meant to blame religion. It took prodding for him to actually explain what he meant, and by then he'd gone back into his mumbling stupor mode. I've never been a fan of Hitchens, and this certainly isn't going to make me change my mind. That was awful. Hitchens hardly answered any of the guy’s questions at all. Even when he did actually stay on topic, it was all poorly constructed. Had I watched that as a Christian, I would have shaken my head and the sleazy-looking drunk guy who mumbles a lot and can’t seem to answer any questions.

The only bit he did relatively well was when asked about Stalin & co. Even then, though, he didn’t follow his arguments through to their conclusions. He left is all vague, allowing the interviewer (and me) wondering if he meant to blame religion. It took prodding for him to actually explain what he meant, and by then he’d gone back into his mumbling stupor mode.

I’ve never been a fan of Hitchens, and this certainly isn’t going to make me change my mind.

]]> By: Daniel Florien http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/01/08/hitchens-on-the-morals-of-an-atheist/#comment-9148 Daniel Florien Fri, 09 Jan 2009 14:49:24 +0000 http://unreasonablefaith.com/?p=1635#comment-9148 @John C: Because I liked it, and I wanted something with a little snow for the winter season. @John C: Because I liked it, and I wanted something with a little snow for the winter season.

]]> By: Jing-reed http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/01/08/hitchens-on-the-morals-of-an-atheist/#comment-9147 Jing-reed Fri, 09 Jan 2009 05:17:46 +0000 http://unreasonablefaith.com/?p=1635#comment-9147 Dan L. asks: "Who was the other guy? Bit of a pompous ass." His name appears at 12:18 - Peter Robinson of the Hoover Institution. More info: http://www.hoover.org/bios/robinson.html Hitchens is brilliant, as usual. Dan L. asks:

“Who was the other guy? Bit of a pompous ass.”

His name appears at 12:18 – Peter Robinson of the Hoover Institution.

More info: http://www.hoover.org/bios/robinson.html

Hitchens is brilliant, as usual.

]]> By: lonlonmilk http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/01/08/hitchens-on-the-morals-of-an-atheist/#comment-9146 lonlonmilk Fri, 09 Jan 2009 05:01:29 +0000 http://unreasonablefaith.com/?p=1635#comment-9146 Since when was it advantageous for social animals to evolve the impulse to steal? That host is an idiot. Theft, like all other moral actions is about game theory, and in a society where you are very likely to meet someone again, the possible negative is much greater than the small reward. Theft is largely an illogical act. Since when was it advantageous for social animals to evolve the impulse to steal? That host is an idiot. Theft, like all other moral actions is about game theory, and in a society where you are very likely to meet someone again, the possible negative is much greater than the small reward. Theft is largely an illogical act.

]]> By: John C http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/01/08/hitchens-on-the-morals-of-an-atheist/#comment-9145 John C Fri, 09 Jan 2009 03:49:06 +0000 http://unreasonablefaith.com/?p=1635#comment-9145 @Daniel- I was just wondering how it is that you decided to feature that (particular) graphic on your homepage? I think its fantastic...was just hoping to hear your thought process on the selection out of all the millions of possibilities...why that one? Thx John @Daniel-

I was just wondering how it is that you decided to feature that (particular) graphic on your homepage? I think its fantastic…was just hoping to hear your thought process on the selection out of all the millions of possibilities…why that one?

Thx John

]]> By: Metro http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/01/08/hitchens-on-the-morals-of-an-atheist/#comment-9144 Metro Thu, 08 Jan 2009 23:56:13 +0000 http://unreasonablefaith.com/?p=1635#comment-9144 @Daniel: If you've read Hitchens, you know he <em>is</em> often on the verge of drunkeness. It's one way to distinguish himself from his brother. @Daniel:
If you’ve read Hitchens, you know he is often on the verge of drunkeness. It’s one way to distinguish himself from his brother.

]]> By: McBloggenstein http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/01/08/hitchens-on-the-morals-of-an-atheist/#comment-9142 McBloggenstein Thu, 08 Jan 2009 22:24:01 +0000 http://unreasonablefaith.com/?p=1635#comment-9142 "I recommend The Origins of Virtue by Matt Ridley" Ooo, looks good. I put it on my Amazon wish list. Thanks! “I recommend The Origins of Virtue by Matt Ridley”

Ooo, looks good. I put it on my Amazon wish list. Thanks!

]]> By: strawdog http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/01/08/hitchens-on-the-morals-of-an-atheist/#comment-9143 strawdog Thu, 08 Jan 2009 21:50:19 +0000 http://unreasonablefaith.com/?p=1635#comment-9143 Hitchens is brilliant again! Who is the buffoon interviewing him? Hitchens is brilliant again!

Who is the buffoon interviewing him?

]]> By: andyb http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/01/08/hitchens-on-the-morals-of-an-atheist/#comment-9141 andyb Thu, 08 Jan 2009 20:23:36 +0000 http://unreasonablefaith.com/?p=1635#comment-9141 Hitchens does superior so very well. For anyone interested in a related topic, I recommend The Origins of Virtue by Matt Ridley. This is a discussion of how altruism might develop from evolution. Hitchens does superior so very well.

For anyone interested in a related topic, I recommend The Origins of Virtue by Matt Ridley. This is a discussion of how altruism might develop from evolution.

]]>