Through seasons of fasting, being sequestered, prayer, study, no outside influences (no tv, no alcohol, no women, no caffeine, no sugar, etc) I have experienced this “mystical” realm. Our bodies (the flesh aspect) require, demand might be a better word that we constantly gratify its desires, food, comfort, sex, etc. If we deny the flesh of its desires, shut our ears to its constant screaming then we essentially diminish its power over us and we then become more sensitive to the spiritual aspect of our being and inversely begin to “hear” its longings, desires, etc which are always the opposite of the fleshly desires in that they are God-towards. So we “count the cost” the question being what do we want to hear, to know. The wisdom of this makes little or no sense to the natural, unrenewed man or mind I understand.

Don’t know if you’re going to check this again, but wanted to say something about the above. You assume here that you’re finding a “mystical plane” by shutting out the body’s needs. From a scientific perspective, another hypothesis would be that your body (including the brain) is a machine and by not keeping it fueled, oiled, and tuned up, you’re causing the brain to work incorrectly, causing it to fail at its primary function — representing the natural world. Either way, you have an “otherworldly” experience. But I think my interpretation may be a somewhat better hypothesis given what we know about how the body (including the brain) works.

Not to try to tear down any experiences that are significant to you, but I wanted to point out that even if I experienced such a thing, I wouldn’t immediately conclude that it implied the existence of God. It’s relatively easy to fool the mind, and I’m of the opinion that one must be especially careful about conclusions reached through intuition and inward seeking.

You are willfully ignorant, John.

Oh, and I would appreciate if you responded to this article:
http://unreasonablefaith.com/2008/12/29/believers-make-your-best-case-for-god/#comments
You got caught making yet another bigotted statement and haven’t responded on that article since. No retraction, no admission, no apology. That is how truthful you are, John. You speak often of the truth, but when it comes right down to it you LIE. You are a horrible witness for your beliefs. Again and again you lie and get caught and come back to lie some more. How do you expect to convert people with lies?

Thanks…as usual I appreciate the civility in which you intend to communicate. Thanks for sharing a little more about your personal experience, both the positives and the regrets which we all share in common.

Obviously, I was being a little tongue in cheek. Do I believe in education? Absolutely. I was only trying to make the point that it has its place…and when it comes to the mystical, the spiritual or the true essentiality or higher life states…it can sometimes be a great hindrence in that it exalts and fortifies the other faculties, ie reason, logic (intractably) above any others thereby diluting the siginificance of the innocent (original, child-like) capacities of man(kind).

I LOVE your quote about learning how to learn as I think that is one of today’s major limitations in the education system. Much of the awe…the wonder, etc is flushed out being reduced to memory skills or systematic processes (moo’ve’m out cow-hands) kind of approach.

As far as the mystical plane goes…I would have to go way back into my understanding of man’s true being, his history, etc to do this justice but here is a little overview.

First…I believe man’s true (core) nature to be that of a spiritual being and not merely (only) physical . I base this on both experiential and scriptural intuitions. A couple reference’s for you (for communicative purposes only)…”for the things which are visible are merely temporal, but those which are unseen…these are of an eternal (permanent, lasting) quality”. And “the things which are seen were made by that which is unseen”. I do consider (much to the chagrin of the forum) the quantum world (unseen) to be a model for the spiritual. I cant go into all the why’s here.

This is why I say I left the notion many years ago that my body was…me. A fairer analogy may actually be found in nature, particularly the pomegranate. While unsightly on the outside…what exquisite beauty on the inside and quite the teacher in itself. But then again…I’m kind of “fruity” lol. One would never suspect the inside to be so very illustrative or beautiful if he never “sliced one open”. It would forever remain a mystery. This is why i made the “mining” analogies…is there anything, or anyOne inside us worth “digging” for. Christ IN you the mystery of the ages…Col 1:26-27.

Through seasons of fasting, being sequestered, prayer, study, no outside influences (no tv, no alcohol, no women, no caffeine, no sugar, etc) I have experienced this “mystical” realm. Our bodies (the flesh aspect) require, demand might be a better word that we constantly gratify its desires, food, comfort, sex, etc. If we deny the flesh of its desires, shut our ears to its constant screaming then we essentially diminish its power over us and we then become more sensitive to the spiritual aspect of our being and inversely begin to “hear” its longings, desires, etc which are always the opposite of the fleshly desires in that they are God-towards. So we “count the cost” the question being what do we want to hear, to know. The wisdom of this makes little or no sense to the natural, unrenewed man or mind I understand.

One of the greatest misconceptions about Jesus, christianity, etc is that its about…religion (endless rule-keeping devoid of love) when in fact this is not at all the message He brought. True christianity is a spiritual (mystical) experience (Jesus saying I will be in you and you will be in me). We are essentially spiritual beings “trapped” in a physical form due to our having departed from our original matrix in the fall.

I am of course a believer, a big fool. I believe Jesus and have commited to the “journey” with Him. As I have more and more gets “opened” to me through trusting Him which requires that I divorce myself from my own reasoning (self or faulty learning & doubts) but afterwards I receive more and more and my reason becomes more in line with spiritual (eternal) truth and is therefore elevated and not limited.

Trusting Him is the thing. Few of us have any understanding of His true nature, love or heart for us so we (naturally) will not easily relenquish ourselves to Him…completely.

Obviously what I have shared with you I did not receive through reason but rather child-likeness and trusting which Jesus said were critical if I ever wanted to enter into this “kingdom” of God in the here and now.

But like I said…I’m a really big fool and have come to know and trust Him completely.

Thanks Dan…we can continue if interested but I think I have probably put you through enough for now.

Take care…JC

You still put any weight on formal education, degree’s…ie Harvard School of Divinity? Yea…I bet he got a BS (bull#$@%) degree there…or maybe even a Phd (piled high & deep) degree.

No man is a “learned’ man…this is highly useless in the things that pertain to life & peace & joy my friend.

If you really want to be “in the know” then all you need to do is go back to pre-school, before the indoctrination process begins and stay child-like…thats the secret to a “higher” education. lol

I do put weight on formal education — I put weight on my own formal education daily. My education in science and mathematics has helped me to excel at my current job and has opened up greater opportunities in other areas at my workplace. It has also deepened and honed my appreciation of the natural world. My exposure to philosophy and other liberal arts as a part of my formal education has led me to new ways to view myself, my fellow man, and the nature of the world itself. I was even able to squeeze in a few classes on poetry, literature, and music, and the art and insights into it those courses provided enrich my life to this day.

While I have learned much since college, it was in college that I learned HOW to learn, and I have no illusions that I could be where I am now without that education. The degrees themselves, which you use to mock the very notion of education, are simply signposts on the journey; they have no meaning beyond reminding one of the work put into the educational experience and the benefits derived.

I strongly disagree that education is not applicable to life or peace or joy. Learning brings me more joy than just about anything else in life; my one regret about the way my life has gone was that I didn’t stay in school and dedicate my life to learning.

Of course, there is something to your exhortation to remain childlike. An education is useless if you fail to question the things you are taught. But it was partially through my education that I learned how to question what I am taught, and learned to ask childlike questions. Let’s not forget that this was Einstein’s approach to theoretical physics, and it would be hard to deny that he was a learned man. And again, perhaps it was Emerson’s education that led him to question those things he had already learned.

But you were supposed to describe a little more clearly what this “mystical plane” is. I’m still not certain I understand.

Its been a few weeks, and you still haven’t learned just how ignorant you sound. Now you support willful ignorance. Whats next?

You stated that people need to go back to a child like state and stay there, then they will find the secret to a higher education. The meaning of this seems clear. The less people know, the less critical they are, the less skeptical, the more they will know.

The contradiction is clear. Your words are simply false. Wrong. Not just baseless, but outright wrong and provably so. Stop saying stupid things like this, because your words are the definition of willful ignorance. You act like this is the key to knowledge. Ignorance is truth! You fool. You sad sad fool.

Just the opposite…no shame in love. Father doesn’t shame us…that’s a product of the fall of man…Jesus restored us back to our original standing which is unconditional love, affirmation, acceptance…love.

No shame on me bro…

JC

So the secret to learning is to not know anything. Never have I seen a clearer and more obvious support for willful ignorance. You are anti-knowledge, John. Anti-intellectual. You attack that which you fear, and you clearly fear knowledge. Why? If your beliefs are true, wouldn’t knowledge, all knowledge, agree with your beliefs? Why are you so ashamed of your beliefs that you are unwilling to see them evaluated openly and honestly by knowledgeable and informed people? Why would you want to keep people ignorant?

You should be ashamed of yourself John.

You still put any weight on formal education, degree’s…ie Harvard School of Divinity? Yea…I bet he got a BS (bull#$@%) degree there…or maybe even a Phd (piled high & deep) degree.

No man is a “learned’ man…this is highly useless in the things that pertain to life & peace & joy my friend.

If you really want to be “in the know” then all you need to do is go back to pre-school, before the indoctrination process begins and stay child-like…thats the secret to a “higher” education. lol

JC

I thought we just called the things we couldn’t understand “The Aether”.

On a completely unrelated side-note; I recall from the dim recesses of my memory, my track coach from high school never cursed at us for having two left feet, etc. He always barked out, “Jimminy Christmas!”

Here’s another “Mystical Plane” which also happens to be the first 20 results on Google when you search for the words “Mystical Plane”:

http://www.amazon.com/Mystical-Plane-Of-Evil/dp/B000QNPE9I

Thx…I think RWE had more of what I would call a child-like “wondering” quality…which can play a part in a pre-lude sort of way to a higher, mystical change of consciousness I was referring to.

I disagree with your assessment of what motivated Emerson. Might I remind you that he attended Harvard Divinity School and only after intensive study of Christianity became something of a heretic. I have a feeling he was better versed in Christian theology than yourself and was familiar with the notion of revelatory experiences, and perhaps had a few of his own (perhaps one such event was what turned him away from the Book).

So I have to ask again that you clarify your question, because I am not at all sure what it is you are asking. What is the mystical plane? If I went there, how would I know where I was? Is it a state of being? A feeling or emotion? I think the other posters here might feel more obliged to take you seriously if you could describe what you’re talking about a little more clearly.

The persecution red herring is their “get out of being pwned free” card.

It’s a very common tactic among creationist forum trolls, and I’ve seen it happen an uncountable number of times on virtually every blog I have visited. Dan L’s “concern troll” comment was very appropriate, judging by Tim’s behavior in this and prior threads. Usually the concern trolls turn out to be the most disingenuous in their posts and motivations for posting as well.