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A UK nurse has been suspended for offering to pray for an elderly woman while on-duty:
Community nurse Caroline Petrie, 45, says she asked an elderly woman patient during a home visit if she wanted her to say a prayer for her.
The patient complained to the health trust about Mrs Petrie who follows the Baptist faith.
She was suspended, without pay, on 17 December and will find out the outcome of her disciplinary meeting next week….
Mrs Petrie says that she has taken advice from the Christian Legal Centre, which aims to protect the religious freedom of people who follow the Christian faith.
I know the nurse meant well, but it doesn’t seem like something she should have been doing. It’s fine to visit people and pray for them on her own time, but not on her employer’s. Honestly, if I’m sick in the hospital, the last thing I want is some nurse pestering me for my prayer requests.
What do you think — should she have been suspended for offering prayer to a patient?
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82 Comments
I understand that the nurse in question has been reinstated. A bit of a right wing hysteria coordinated by the right wing press and others saw to that. Apparently the reason for her suspension was that her actions were against the rules.
http://tinyurl.com/aqlx7k has an update.
Robert
Absolutly she should be suspended unless she had a relationship with the patient that enabled here to determine that this wouldn’t be considered offensive. It is clear that this wasn’t the case.
A telling point in the story is the nurse’s quote:
“I saw my patients suffering and as I believe in the power of prayer, I began asking them if they wanted me to pray for them. They are absolutely delighted.”
Of source the Christian lobby will be up in arms claiming this is more persecution but the NHS guidelines are clear on the concept of the acceptability of putting forward religious view points at work whether to other employees or patients.
I am a pretty radical atheist, but I have to disagree on this one. The nurse did not push her believes on the patient, nor did she pray for him without consent.
This is about the patients’ wellbeing. If he or she feels comforted by the thought that someone is praying for him or her, that’s fine with me. Whatever floats your boat. As long as it’s not replacing any rational form of treatment.
What’s wrong with the nurse asking “Do you want me to pray for you?”. A simple “Nah, thanks, I’m good” would suffice. Unless the nurse then shouted “Oh, you prefer to suffer eternal damnation?”
Seriously, offering a prayer to a suffering human being should not be what this fight is about. Let’s get some perspective.
I have to agree with Torsten. What is the harm in offering to perform a social ritual to a suffering person when, knowing nothing else about them, odds are they will find it comforting? It would be another matter if the nurse had simply started praying without giving the patient a choice — *that* would cross the line without question. But since that apparently is not what happened in this case, I really do not see how her actions could be taken as offensive.
As with Thorsten and RobG, I don’t really see the harm in this. Should we suspend nurses because they spend a few minutes talking with patients about their day? For asking how they feel? She’s taking care of her patients, and the mere fact that she even goes above and beyond her job description to do it should be applauded.
No, with what I know about this particular case, I have to strongly disagree. I would much rather have religious people asking me if they can help, than have no people ask at all.
The woman should have understood what the boundaries are and expectations are with her employer, North Somerset Primary Care Trust.
It is true she did not force her faith, either explicitly or implicitly in her offer, but since it appears to be outside the scope of treatment by a nurse “as North Somerset Primary Care Trust” seems to be indicating in suspending her pending the complete investigation, then she should have been aware of that.
It does appear North Somerset has the discretion of a child and is using dynamite to kill a flea. Certainly a correction to the nurse to not offer religious acts to others as part of the care as a nurse with Somerset and an apology to the patient seems sufficient.
@ Alex: I think there is something else to consider here – we are talking about a passive act as opposed to an active act (for lack of a better term). To me, it seems perfectly understandable that the nurse should not take any “religious action”, such as baptizing the patient, trying healing techniques, or even praying WITH the patient. But to offer the patient a prayer that will be conducted in the nurses’ spare time, in her private environment, is absolutely harmless. It’s an act of compassion – and denying it makes US look exactly as heartless as THEY want us to look.
Heck, if a dying patient asked me to pray for him, I would tell him that I hold no religious belief system – but I’d still do it if he insisted. It’s like leaving a light on for you little daughter at night, even though you KNOW there are no monsters under the bed. The rational thing isn’t necessarily the right thing when dealing with irrational fears.
Tort,
I agree with the passive nature of the act but in a litigious society that makes benchmarks out of the slightest nuance we should learn the boundaries and stay within them “with respect to our employers” (meaning for you litigious types that just because a boundary is set doesn’t mean it is valid but in this case an employer does have the validity to set the standard of nursing care and the boundaries such as no religious discussions or offers even passively).
Yes Tort, in a world of common sense and mature discretion this is, in the worst a mild slight, remedied by a simple correction to the nurse and an apology to the patient. However, we don’t live in that world as I see it. And in a world of mature consideration even the most adherent atheist can appreciate the attempt toward kindness or spirit of concern. Again I don’t believe we live in that world. While there are some that are mature, most of society is stuck in mental and emotional adolescence which lends itself to this kind of reaction by many. If a Muslim offered prayers for me, though I am not a Muslim, I would be struck by his or her thoughtfulness though I would decline the offer, not be offended and seek some kind of accusation of proselytizing or offensive violation of my privacy.
Alex, I see your point. I still think that we (as atheists, rationalists, liberals) have made it our goal to strive for that better world. And punishing the nurse feels so petty, so vindictive. Leave that to the religious zealots. I want to be the better person.
Again, I agree in principle – she has a secular job, and there is no reason to bring religion into it. But there HAS to be some leeway, some wriggle room – it’s the terrain of compromise, where cohabitation of different worldviews is possible. If WE can’t be reasonable, I’m going to return my membership card to the atheists club.
Think about this: what if the nurse had not phrased it in a question? What if she had told the patient “I will pray for you tonight”? Should we punish her for it? Should there be a law that prayer has to be consentual, like sex? If not – how can ASKING about a prayer be wrong? As I understand it, the rules are there to prevent religion from influencing her work and judgment. They can’t be there to turn her into a non-religious person while on duty.
To quote Ren & Stimpy: It’s meedness, udder udder meedness!
I’m pretty solid in my atheism but this does seem like a bit of an overreaction to me. Had I been in that situation, I likely would just have said something along the lines of “it doesn’t make any difference to me if you’d like to waste thirty seconds of your day by talking to yourself about me,” and then promptly forgotten about the entire incident.
The nurse only asked the patient if she wanted her to pray for her, she did not force her she asked her. Is the UK really a free and so called democratic country ? Did the patient say yes or no, that she did or didn’t want prayers. If she said no then the nurse should have shaken the dust off her feet and kept moving. What is this earth coming too!No wonder the planet is losing her protection.
It does seem a bit harsh to suspend her for offering to pray a patient, even if the offer was insensitive. One thing that I do not know is, was this a first-time offense, or does this nurse have a history of inappropriate conduct in the work place? Until I know at least that, I can’t say whether the suspension was deserved.
@ Steve: You’re right, of course – we may not have all the fact. We may need to remind ourselves that we discuss here is based on limited information.
Tarnation! I buy “s” for “factS” and “what” between “that” and “we”…
Seems to me that many of the tolerant comments above don’t take into account the fact that some of these patients might have some other religious belief than evangelical christian – might they not be offended by the suggestion of prayer?
The National Health Service employs chaplains of a variety of persuasions to offer religious services, it’s not what nurses should be doing, in my opinion.
Remember the complaint came from a patient (see the BBC News report at http://tinyurl.com/c58fyb). The patient was presumably sufficiently offended by the offer to pray.
@ GrumpyBob: No. Because it’s ridiculous to be offended just because someone offers you a prayer from a different faith. A muslim, a jew, a buddhist – everyone has the chance to say “Actually, christian prayers is not how I roll”.
Thinking about it: If I were a devout Catholic, I STILL wouldn’t mind a muslim praying for me. Worst case scenario: it won’t do anything.
I think the fact that people are ridiculously easily offended these days is a problem we should be working on – taking away you daughter’s videogame because a character allegedly mumbles “Islam is the light”? Puh-lease!
I have to agree with Torsten. To me, someone asking if I want them to pray for me is even more considerate than someone just blurting out that they will pray for me without asking. I’m not offended either way. To me saying they will pray for me is like them saying they are pulling for me. Shall we start suspending people for saying “Bless you.” when someone sneezes next?
Torsten – the fact remains that a patient *was* sufficiently offended to make a complaint. Isn’t that enough reason that nurses shouldn’t be acting in this way.
Yes, in that patient’s position, I would probably have asked the nurse to mind her own business. But remember, the patient and nurse are in a professional relationship in which one is responsible for the other. And to disagree with the nurse’s offer is difficult for the patient, who might worry about the consequences of annoying the nurse.
If the NHS regulations say that nurses should not behave like that, they are part of the terms of employment and should be obeyed.
@ GrumpyBob: I hear you, but the fact that the patient was sufficiently offended is not relevant. The question is: is this something to be offended about? Debatable, I know. Somebody could say “hello” to me on the street, and I could be offended. That doesn’t give me the right to complain about it.
“I would probably have asked the nurse to mind her own business.”? I’m sorry, but you seem to really deserve your nick: a nurse comes into your home, takes good (in all likelyhood) care of you, asks you whether she should say a prayer for you, and your answer is “Mind your own business”? Seriously?
I can’t… no, I don’t WANT to believe that.
In this scenario – who seems to be the better person, with the higher level of empathy?
Being an atheist does not equal being rude, or inconsiderate. That’s just what THEY want you to believe ;-)
From other reports I’ve read, the nurse was known to have offered prayer cards to other patients — this wasn’t the first time she had been reprimanded (hence the suspension).
But what I want to know (since I have never been a Christian) is why do these people have to ask permission? The asking of permission seems to me of more benefit of the nurse than the patient. I wonder: Did the nurse, after being refused, NOT pray for this woman?
@ Mrs.Crackle (sorry for hogging this comment section, btw): She doesn’t HAVE to ask permission: she can pray for whatever or whoever she wants. She’s being considerate, obviously knowing that some people don’t want it. It’s also a way to let the patient know that he is being prayed for. That alone gives comfort (assuming the patient is a christian).
Did the nurse pray for the woman anyway? We can’t know. But my guess is: yes. Because as a christian, she believes that the patient is misguided in her dismissal. The urge to help through prayer is usually stronger than the respect for another persons (lack of) belief.
I get really tired of being hit with the, “Have a blessed day” when I’m shopping or conducting other business in public. Seems rather presumptuous to me and assumes that the receiver follows a Christian faith. I don’t know any other faiths or non faiths that close with such. I find it offensive and grow weary of it. Seems to me it assumes alot. respectfully submitted for your consideration in a humble and Chrestionly spirit
I tend to think the situation is analogous to being heterosexual and being hit on by a member of the same sex. A person can either be flattered that someone finds them sexy, or annoyed that they are assumed to be receptive of same-sex advances. Both are logical, but only one is particularly pleasant…y’know, move along the whole ‘we have to live together on this Earth and so might as well be nice’ thing. The aggressiveness of the proposition tends to affect how appropriate each reaction is, IMO.
She shouldn’t be suspended …the first time. She should be warned to stop. Progressive discipline after a warning is the way to handle this.
The patient may be of another faith, or no faith at all, and the nurse may become bias after finding out, or try to “convert” them. This could cause real anxiety in the patient (mental health).
The arrogance of even asking the patient implies, somehow, this is a practice which will work for the them. The assumption is also the nurses ability isn’t enough, but prayer may do the trick. If that were the case the patient wouldn’t need the nurse at all, they could simply pray themselves back to health.
@knowdoubt
Next time you encounter “Have a blessed day,” counter it immediately, yet politely, with “Thanks, but I have other plans.” It usually has the desired effect.
I suppose whether or not the suspension was warranted, we won’t know till the Lifetime Movie comes out. Even then, it’ll be on the side of the person that sells the story.
Truly, we weren’t there. We only have second hand reports of what the nurse represents.
Perhaps she was overly aggressive. What kind of prayer did she offer? Was it the prayer of salvation? I might be a little miffed at that, well, maybe not. Me, I just let people know I’m not interested and move on.
Or maybe the person that complained was an atheist that was tired of being told they didn’t have a moral compass. Who knows what will make a person snap?
I suppose unless we have all the information, speculation will run rampant with our opinions of what we thought happened.
Either way, wonderful way to begin a Saturday morning.
@ Patrick: “The arrogance of even asking” – seriously?
OF COURSE the nurse assumes that prayer works – that is called FAITH! To her, it’s another tool at her disposal, and there is no reason to neglect it – IF the patient agrees.
Your assumptions are all over the place: the nurse does not believe that prayer can REPLACE treatment. Nor does she claim that treatment without prayer is somehow lacking. Is it so hard to fathom that someone is confident in his/her abilities, yet still resorts to prayer as added comfort?
I can’t believe I am defending a believer here, but be it as it may: a lot of people, even atheists, change their mind about God once they have a terminal illness. It may be studid and transparent, but it’s their right to do so. Based on that fact alone, the nurse has any right to ask a sick person whether he or she wants to be prayed for. The patient may not have thought about it, but he/she could come to the conclusion: “You know what? Actually, I would like that.”
Asking is neither arrogant nor wrong. I find it arrogant and quite rude to be offended just because a person approaching you has no idea that you don’t share his/her belief system/sexual orientation/favorite snack food.
I think that the biggest factor in all of this is authenticity. If someone is genuinely offering you care or concern by asking to pray for you, saying “God bless you”, etc. and this upsets or offends you, then, in my opinion, you should probably reassesses your social/emotional stability. I don’t care how ludicrous the action that is tied to their genuine care is; so long as it is not injuring anyone, I fail to see the problem with it. In fact, if any manifestation of someone’s deep seated care for you offends you, then I’m sorry, you’ve got some issues you need to overcome.
On the flip side, if it is a truly inauthentic gesture, and furthermore it really is just some subtle display of pretension from someone trying to proselytize, then yes, I could see how one could take offense. However, even if this truly is the case, and it’s anything short of harassment, I still fail to see how someone could be so offended that a formal complaint would be in order. To borrow a phrase from another crusader against religious dogma, “Let it be. Let it be. Whisper words of wisdom. Let it be.”
Oh, and as for semantics… the follow up link that was posted said that hospital guidelines forbid nurses from giving “spiritual guidance.” To me, this means leading some sort of ritual or giving theological/doctrinal insight. Offering a prayer (again, assuming that is all that this was) can hardly be construed, to me, as “spiritual guidance.”
Assuming we have all the facts (and this is a big assumption), I’d say this nurse was perfectly within her rights as a citizen of a free country and an employee of the hospital.
@ Wade: Thanks for putting it better than I ever could.
I always thought the religious guys were the uptight, tightly wound, easily irritable ones. My atheism has given me a very relaxed attitude. Even if a religious fanatic screams in my face “You will burn in HELL!!!”, I can hardly muster up the energy to say “Yeah? Guess we’ll see about that in time”.
’tis true: If the nurse somehow tried to pressure the patient, it’s inexcusable. But we are talking about what we know – and as far as we know, she didn’t.
When I was in the hospital for the birth of my first child, I inexplicably woke to find some strange woman in my room one day, staring at me, who asked if I wanted her to pray “with” me. I said “no”, rolled over and tried to go back to sleep. I have no idea who she was, where she came from, or why she was in my room. My religious preferences were clearly stated in my file, and I believe on the chart at the foot of my bed. This was after my son was born, all was well, and I was going to be going home in the next day. And yes, I was very annoyed by this intrusion. Had I wanted someone to pray for me, I would have requested a priest (I was still claiming Catholicism at the time).
I think more telling on this whole thing are some statements made in this article at the Times Online:
“When asked if she would do it again, Mrs Petrie replied: “Yes.” She added: “I would like to get this issue resolved and I’m absolutely delighted that I have been offered to go back.”
In a statement last night, North Somerset Primary Care Trust said that it recognised Mrs Petrie had been acting in the “best interests of her patients”, that nurses did not have to “set aside their faith” in the workplace and could “continue to offer high quality care for patients while remaining committed to their beliefs”. The trust also admitted that, for some, prayer is recognised as an “integral part of health care and the healing process”.
….
Andrea Williams, director of the Christian Legal Centre, said: “This is a great victory for Mrs Petrie and for common sense. It highlights the importance of being able to take personal faith into the workplace.”
It doesn’t sound to me like she has learned from tnis. On the contrary, it sounds like she will be emboldened to do more of this sort of thing. Goody, more faith in the workplace.
@ Digital Dame: What happened to you was inexcusable, but I don’t think it’s comparable to this case.
Not only do I think it is absolutely in sync with her faith that the nurse won’t “learn from this”, but I actually think she has no reason to! Plus, for her, it would be a sin not to offer her spiritual compassion to a suffering human being.
Again: how can the offer of prayer be offensive, even punishable? Where is the tolerance?
Can’t we focus on people screaming “God hates faggots” at soldiers’ funerals, on “scientists” trying to inject ID into the school system, on “good christians” killing doctors, and setting clinics on fire?
Chastising a nurse for offering prayer, that’s not a fight.
For the most part, I have to agree with the right-wingers on this one. The nurse acted out of goodwill and was offering what she believed to be a genuinely valuable service. Furthermore, she does not seem to have been pushing either the prayer or her beliefs on the woman by doing so. From that information alone, I would say that the suspension was unwarranted.
But if Digital Dame’s guess is correct and the patient’s religious preference was easily accessible for the nurse, then I would say that she was acting out of line. It would have been better in this case for her to offer a discreet prayer for the patient without ever getting her involved. And if she did, indeed, have access to this information, taking into account the warnings she has already received for the same violation, I would say that the suspension was warranted.
One other thing that comes through in the tone of the article and later additional information is that the woman had offered to use her working time – as a nurse – to provide religious support to the patients. While prayer [i]may[/i] be helpful, it is by no means a certifiable method of treatment, and this would constitute idling on the job. Again, a suspension may be in order.
@Torsten
You’re ok with this because you don’t find her particular brand of religion objectionable. What if this nurse had been a Satanist, or Asatruer, or Wiccan? Or some other thing you’ve never heard of?
As Mrs Grackle mentioned earlier in this thread, this was not the first time this woman had been disciplined about this. And I seriously doubt she would be as tolerant of other faiths doing the same unto her. It will just bolster the Christian sense of superiority.
She should have been suspended, not because praying is intrinsically wrong, but because praying on the job is intrinsically wrong. She should have been doing her job and using a medical approach to try to cure her patient, not a superstitious approach.
Shouldn’t a construction worker be suspended for praying for a building to get built during the time that he should actually be building it?
Shouldn’t a writer be suspended for praying for an article to get written during the time that he should actually be building it?
Shouldn’t any person be suspended for praying for his job to get done during the time that he should actually be doing his job?
@ Digital Dame: I don’t take the “repeat offender” angle seriously, because (afaik) that’s an assumption. If it were true, though, I’d agree with you. Please let’s keep that in mind.
If a Satanist, Wiccan, or Pastafarian asks me whether he should pray/skin a cat/dance naked in the moonlight for me, I would answer the same: “No, thanks”. It’s not that I find the nurses’ brand of religion less objectionable – I find all religion equally moronic.
She ASKED. Asking means giving the other person a CHOICE. Being offended by being given the choice to turn down an offer seems absurd to me.
I would even simplify the “being approached by a person of the same sex” analogy: What if you are approached by a person of the opposite sex that you simply find extremely unattractive? Is THAT person not allowed to ask for a date?
We have a saying over here that roughly translates to: “Don’t ask, stay ignorant”. All progress is made by asking questions. The term “the arrogance of even asking” goes against everything that I believe.
Do people sometimes annoy me with their questions? Yes. But do I want to take away their right to ASK questions? That would be a definitive “no”.
@ Lucas: If she indeed wasted her working hours on prayer: absolutely. But the assumption up to this point was that she offered to pray on her own time.
You’re ok with this because you don’t find her particular brand of religion objectionable. What if this nurse had been a Satanist, or Asatruer, or Wiccan? Or some other thing you’ve never heard of?
How do you figure that follows? In any case, the conversation would have gone:
Nurse: “Would you like to participate in religious activity X?”
Patient: “No, I would not like to do X.”
And X can be pretty much anything.
One other thing that comes through in the tone of the article and later additional information is that the woman had offered to use her working time – as a nurse – to provide religious support to the patients. While prayer [i]may[/i] be helpful, it is by no means a certifiable method of treatment, and this would constitute idling on the job. Again, a suspension may be in order.
It is no more so than picking up a glass of water for a patient who’s thirsty. “Glass of water” is not generally a medical treatment. We do many things, and expect nurses to do many things, to make a patient more comfortable while they are being treated, and this is as much a part of their job as making sure the doctor’s prescribed protocols are being administered. This nurse just happened to guess wrong about what would make this particular patient happy, and this particular patient is kinda whiny about that fact.
The patient is a hypersensitive idiot to even file a complaint about this — unless there was a lot more going on than the article reports. And her superiors who suspended her are complete morons. I find it difficult to believe that rational people would even entertain the idea that someone should be suspended for merely asking a question.
Here’s a wild idea. How about when someone asks if you want them to pray for you, you just say, “no thanks.” I know that’s just too difficult. I mean the notion that someone has the temerity to offer to speak a few harmless words to their imaginary deity is just so offensive, it must warrant suspending them from their job.
This has been a very interesting discussion! I am a Christian, a nursing student, and the son of a hospital chaplain.
I think offering a prayer to an unknown patient is inappropriate. Also, depending on the type of prayer offered, it could be extremely inappropriate and worthy of suspension or termination. There’s a huge difference between praying for God to aid someone in a difficult time (whether you think he actually will aid that person or not), and praying that God rescue someone from the eternal damnation that surely awaits them if they don’t repent.
In the former case, I’d say a reprimand at worst. In the latter case, the nurse should be terminated. Since we don’t know what the exact offer was, it is very challenging to judge.
Personally, I wouldn’t offer an unsolicited prayer to a patient. However, if the patient requested a prayer I would consider it completely appropriate to take a few minutes of work time to pray with them, if I am not urgently needed elsewhere.
@Torston
Isn’t it an assumption it is a prayer for “comfort?” Maybe it is a prayer for “healing” or to be without pain. Who knows? Isn’t it also an assumtion she is praying to a Christian diety?
Let’s flip the script and say the nurse prays to Satan or Wotan or Thor for “comfort.” I can say with certainty there are nurses who practice all of these. How would the patient feel then?
Wouldn’t it be better to say to the patient, “I hope you get better soon” and leave it at that. She is a professional who is getting paid for a job based in science, and likely not versed in the nuance of different religions. Yes, Thorsten, I think arrogance fits perfectly.
You said: “Based on that fact alone, the nurse has any right to ask a sick person whether he or she wants to be prayed for…” Actually, she has no “right” whatsoever …legally or ethically, and shouldn’t do it.
That being said, we will have to disagree on this issue, Thorsten
@ Patrick: No, it’s not about “agreeing to disagree”.
The idea of the nurse praying to Satan has been answered above. It makes no difference at all.
Whether the prayer is for healing or comfort, makes no difference (at least none that I can see). Let’s file it under the more general term “wellbeing”.
It is an established fact (read the articles) that the nurse was a devout Christian? What’s the point of assuming otherwise?
Appearantly, you don’t understand the nature of faith. The nurse considers it a strong tool, much more effective than saying “get well soon”. I can understand that she feels the need to use it as much as possible. But she was considerate enough to check with the patient before.
I think this is going off track, because we lose focus of the basic facts:
- She is not supposed to practice her religion “on the job”
- She didn’t (as far as we know, feel free to point me to evidence stating otherwise). She asked a patient whether she could provide comfort by praying. The patient said “no”.
- Again, she didn’t.
Let’s say you have a restraining order saying that I can’t come to your house. I call you up and say: “Hey, can I come anyway?”. You say “no way”. I don’t come over. Have I just violated the restraining order?
En dubio pro reo
I actually have a lot of personal experience with nurses, both in a hospital setting and at home. The job of a nurse is not constant activity: there are times when there is nothing to do but sit and wait until it is time for the next treatment, or something happens that requires a medical response. So this nurse was probably not shirking her responsibilities by taking a moment to pray — she would have had plenty of time with nothing better to do anyway.
I also met a hospital chaplain during an extended stay at a hospital. As with Digital Dame, my religious preference (“None”) was right there in my file, but the chaplain stopped by anyway and offered to say a prayer. I really didn’t mind — I knew it would not have any medical benefits, nor would it affect my mental or emotional state, but I figured, here is a woman who has, for better or worse, dedicated her life to this social service, and if letting her say a prayer gives her a feeling of accomplishment, then in the end there is a net positive outcome for all involved.
The points made about the difference between a prayer for comfort or health and the difference for salvation of the soul is important, and it would not be hard to change one or two things about the scenario to make the nurse in question’s actions highly inappropriate. But based on what we have seen repeated of the articles here, she really was just being a decent, empathetic human being and offering something she thought might be a comfort to her patient.
The point is this nurse was not hired to provide any sort of spiritual guidance, prayer, comfort, anything. If that’s what she wants to do she needs to retrain and go into the ministry.
Yes, Torsten, it was a Christian. This time. That is irrelevant. What if others are now seeing this as a green light to go ahead and start toting around incense in case one of their patients wants to invoke Kali? This is not the job of a nurse. Medical professionals are not hired to provide spiritual services. This is patently ridiculous.
@ Andrew
You offer a very interesting and valuable insight. Given your background, I’ll defer to you on how appropriate or inappropriate this action was.
@ all
(Again, working with the knowledge we have, and also assuming that if this were some overtly proselytizing it would have been reported as such in the article…) Even if this was an inappropriate gesture, it seems it was still a gesture of care and compassion, and I worry about someone who would raise a formal complaint concerning such an action.
If you are offended by a genuine act of compassion (regardless of the religious act that is associated with it) then you are not failing as an intellectual or rationalist, but you are failing as a human being.
And as for this nurse “wasting hospital time” praying, so long as this wasn’t a half hour prayer (and as Andrew noted, she wasn’t immediately needed elsewhere) I don’t see it as anything different than the normal time that many people spend doing random personal tasks at work. (ie, calling your wife to tell her you’ll be home at such and such time, going to the bathroom, making a cup of coffee, etc.)
@ Digital Dame: “If that’s what she wants to do she needs to retrain and go into the ministry.” – since when is praying the exclusive right of “professionals”?
I’m sorry, I would’ve expected a little more compassion and tolerance.
I feel a little sick, but I need to say: I think the punishment outweighed the crime. Assuming this is a first-time offense, a slap on the wrist or official write-up would have been sufficient. Being fired is a little excessive.
I’m a practicing conservative Jew and sort of an atheist (that’s not as contradictory as it looks), and I do get a little uppity about Christian morality and beliefs being forced on me, but in this situation saying “No” would have been enough. I wouldn’t have been offended in the first place, but even if I had been, I think a simple disciplinary measure along the lines of a warning or whatnot would have been just fine.
“I’m a practicing conservative Jew and sort of an atheist (that’s not as contradictory as it looks)” – yes, it DOES look contradictory. Atheism means not believing in a religious deity, judaism means believing in a God.
Care to explain? I am seriously curious.
@cooledskin
“I feel a little sick, but I need to say: I think the punishment outweighed the crime. Assuming this is a first-time offense, a slap on the wrist or official write-up would have been sufficient. Being fired is a little excessive.”
She was suspended not sacked and is now working again.
@Thorston
I didn’t say we “agree to disagree” Thorston. I said we will “have to disagree.” My position stands. Peace.
@cooledskin
This was apparently not the first time she had been reprimanded for bringing her religion to her patients.
@Torsten
You’re on an atheist blog, why would you think we’d look favorably on this? No one is saying she can’t pray. She can do all the praying she wants in her own home, her church, on a park bench. It is not, however, acceptable to bring it to her job. She can pray in her head all day long while she’s working, as long as she can still make rational decisions while she’s doing it.
That said, here’s a quote from Mrs. Petrie, the nurse in question:
“Mrs Petrie said: “I stopped handing out prayer cards after that but I found it more and more difficult [not to offer them]. My concern is for the person as a whole, not just their health.
This was after she had been reprimanded for a previous incident. She already KNEW she wasn’t supposed to be doing this, but as an evangelical Christian it seems to be beyond her to abide by the guidelines under which she was hired. If I violated the Code of Conduct where I work, I’d expect the same treatment.
You’re on an atheist blog, why would you think we’d look favorably on this?
So far at least two Atheists, Torsten and myself, have said they have no problem with this, and at least one Christian, Andrew C, who says he thinks she should have been punished. (There have been other comments for or against punishing the nurse, though I don’t know how those individuals define themselves.)
So…the religious identity of the people seems to have little-to-no predictive power over how people are going to react to this situation, much less where they are reacting (i.e. an Atheist blog).
I’d suggest that Wade got it the best here:
“If you are offended by a genuine act of compassion (regardless of the religious act that is associated with it) then you are not failing as an intellectual or rationalist, but you are failing as a human being.”
This is not an issue of what Atheists or Theists like. This is an issue of being about to identify and appreciate the intentions behind other people’s actions and react appropriately. If there was an element of *force* associated with the offer, that would be another thing again. But when it comes to voluntarily choosing whether someone will undertake an offered act on your behalf or not, the space for legitimate offense is pretty damn narrow. Does it hurt so much to say “no, thank you” or even “sure, if it will make *you* feel better”?
That last paragraph in my post should read “…an issue of being able to identify…”.
A preview button would be *awesome*. :)
@Digital Dame
I hadn’t seen the story that she all had already been reprimanded for the same type of incident before. The last bit of sympathy for her has now disappeared and without trying to over generalise it sounds like another case of a believer thinking that the rules shouldn’t apply to them.
Part of the problem, with some of the posts, I see is that the culture in the UK towards religion is somewhat different to that in say the US. Here in the UK offering to pray for someone could easily be taken as forcing your religions views onto someone else regardless of the intent and violating the patients own religious freedom — it seems that many of the posters on this thread are unaware of how private religion is treated.
The NHS guidelines embody this ethic in that it allows you to take part in a pray or other religious activity but not to offer it unsolicited.
I DO believe that this differs from nation to nation. Here in Germany, religion is not taken that seriously. Offering to pray for someone is considered an act of kindness, not of fundamentalism. Since both our major churches (catholic and protestant) are very low key, no one makes a big deal out of it. We don’t have reborn christians, and there is not tendency to try to convert other people. You are usually born with your affiliation to a church based on your family history.
And yeah – the German pope has just now royally fucked things up by inviting a holocaust denier back into the church. Sheesh…
Nurse: “Would you like me to say a prayer for you?”
Me: “Feel free. Now I’d like to ask you a question…… why did you go through all the necessary medical training if you believe that prayer can heal people?”
@ boomslang:
Answer: “Nobody said praying alone heals people – but it helps the spirit. That’s my belief. Nobody prays to get a broken bone straightened out.”
I agree with many, I personally, would not have taken offense. But the fact of the matter is the patient did and comes down to interpretation. What if in the patient’s head this made her think, ‘well, does this nurse think I’m dying?’.
I worked at a hospital for three years, and at the same time was going to school to become a nurse. This is a tricky situation and one needs to be professional needs to respect the patient and the number one priority of the nurse is the patient and ‘critical care’. Keep them comfortable and help them with their pain. Personal beliefs of the nurse are to be kept personal, because one never knows what upbringing, what lifestyle and how the patient will interpret actions that are OUTSIDE of the medical spectrum.
@Digital Dame
You bring up some good points, especially her other quotes, as well as the one from the Trust that said that prayer is an “integral part of health care and the healing process.” That blew me away!
I also highly agree with you on this:
If someone offered to cast spells, or to sacrifice an animal for your health, your reaction would most certainly be of more alarm. Of course, the woman didn’t offer anything such as this, but it would have been for the same purpose… to perform an action that has no relation to the purpose of the nurse’s visit, to aid recovery.
@ McBloggenstein:
Casting a spell? Why would I give a s**t?
Sacrifice an animal – that’s a bad example on two levels:
- It’s animal cruelty, and hardly comparable to offering a prayer
- Ever heard of animal testing in the name of medical science?
“that has no relation to the purpose of the nurse’s visit, to aid recovery” – there is a mixup here. Nobody said that the prayer will have a causal influence on the illness. But the fact remains that knowing a person prays for you can give a certain level of comfort. Thus, there is a very clear purpose.
“that prayer is an “integral part of health care and the healing process.”” – yeah, that’s just plain stupid. Religion at its best.
There’s absolutely nothing wrong with praying for someone. Whether you guys like it or not, we are free to do this. When my mother was in the hospital a nurse prayed for her to recover. There’s nothing wrong with that.
Only those who absolutely can’t stand the thought of prayer would object to it. It is but a kind gesture of hope. Whether you think it works or not isn’t the point.
It’s not meant to cure people. It’s meant to encourage them and make them feel better. It’s simply another form of comforting a patient.
I really wish people would be more open minded about this fact.
@Torsten
For the “casting a spell” bit, I simply meant that most would probably think that to be at least a little more strange than prayer. Harmful? Of course not. But as you say, knowing that someone is praying for you may offer some comfort, while I am saying that offering something possibly more strange, such as casting a spell, could easily offer some discomfort. Point being, one brand of religion is easier to stomach than others.
However, does the fact that someone knows you are praying for them help them? Read this:
http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/02/06/stop-praying-and-cover-your-garden/#comment-13966
As for the animal sacrifice, you say it is not comparable to offering prayer. Of course it isn’t, that’s why I said that she didn’t offer “anything such as this”, meaning they are not comparable, but I added that they “would have been for the same purpose”. To aid recovery.
Perhaps no one said literally “She prayed for her because she thought it would heal the woman”. However, either she made the offer simply because she thought it was something that the old lady might want to hear, or she offered prayer because she thought that it might have some effect.
Did you watch the video on the article provided?
She says:
What else could “the power of prayer” mean?
@Torsten
“But the fact remains that knowing a person prays for you can give a certain level of comfort. Thus, there is a very clear purpose.”
The argument could be easily made that knowing that someone is praying for you could lead a patient to believe their condition is worse than it actually is.
This generated quite a bit of controversy. I really don’t have a problem with people asking to pray for someone as long as their employer allows it. But since it didn’t she was clearly in the wrong.
Also, as some have pointed out, if she believes in the power of prayer, why ask? She could just pray for them. If she thinks that is helpful to them, then great.
I know that many evangelicals are taught to use the question “Is there anything I can pray for you about?” as a conversation starter to try and convert people. I don’t know if this was the case here, but it wouldn’t surprise me at all if it was.
@ John: No, I don’t think that argument can be made, since (and I am beginning to sound like a broken record here) SHE ASKED! The patient said no, so the nurse didn’t pray (afawk). Your point would only be valid if the nurse had declared “I WILL pray for you”.
@ Daniel: I don’t think it has been clearly established what the employers’ guidelines mean. Is it spiritual activity to ASK someone to pray for them LATER? I don’t think so. Saying that I will have a hamburger tomorrow won’t make my appetite go away today.
Again: there has been no praying. There has been no spiritual counselling, with or without consent. All we have is a nurse asking a patient if she would like to be prayed for. I can not fathom why that would generate such a lengthy discussion, and why disciplinary measures are called for.
And bringing up satanists, and slaughtered animals? That’s like religious zealots arguing against gay marriage on the basis of “sure, men/men sounds okay in theory, but what if it ultimately promotes men/animal relationships?”.
To me, and maybe it’s because I’m German, this is ridiculously PC, when the mere possibility of offending someone requires absurdly strict rules. My advice to the patient? “Get over it. She’s a nurse, not the antichrist – as far as we know.”
And thanks to the time difference, I have to go to bed now (way past midnight in Munich).
I sincerely enjoyed the spirited exchange.
Best regards,
Torsten
I am agnostic and i would not be and am not offended by those who offer/pray for me. I consider it an act/statement of good will. It’s like when you say to someone Merry Christmas. They have to get an attitude and tell you they don’t celebrate Xmas. I consider it all an extension of good will and well wishes. No one is harming me or asserting their beliefs on me.
Well Tort,
It appears by way of the responses of the many with which you have contended that my belief that “most of society is stuck in mental and emotional adolescence which lends itself to this kind of reaction” and that we are a “litigious” world, is rather valid.
I actually thought about this one for awhile. At the first, the immediate reaction was going “Whoa, somebody the wrong cerials on in the morning.” and thought I wouldn’t be offended by this question. Than I read little and reaaally started thinking about it.
When I was going heading towards my divorce (my husbands’ family were somewhat religious and I am not, he fell in love with another woman) my mother-in-law tried to support me on the subject. And said “I will say a prayer for you and your marriage” That irritated me, since I had no hope on that matter that God would actually help in this case at all but didn’t say anything to her, she was trying to comfort me. She knew my statement on the matter, yet choose many times to ignore the fact that I was a non-believer. But still, even though the offer was nice, it certainly irritated me at the time. And I remember going in my head “How in the world could God really affect a mind of man on that kinda situation.” But I and propably her as well knew it was over.
The statement of “I’ll say a prayer for you” is kinda final. It says that you have no faith in the people that are trying to heal someone and put it into god’s arms. Elderly people might panic on that subject. Because I think they see it on the same line, it’s trying to be the last line, comforting yourself to God. And if you don’t believe in it, there’s no hope in people either huh? Some people have the “problem” of over-thinking about things. “So she’s saying a prayer? Is there no hope? Have the doctors talked about this at all? Will this be the end of it?” Panic and mayhem. All people certainly won’t think that way but some might. And when you’re at that state, sick and without energy, you don’t want to think about it like that.
Just a point of view. “I hope you’ll get better soon” has some hope in it, for everyone. Nobody’s offended by it. “I’ll say a prayer” has no hope for someone.
Correction “Somebody got the wrong cerials”.
Not the brightest idea write 4.30 am.
@Daniel
I know that many evangelicals are taught to use the question “Is there anything I can pray for you about?” as a conversation starter to try and convert people.
Really? I honestly didn’t know this. Do they really think that it’s a good idea to approach people this way? I mean, I guess it could work on people who have no exposure to or opinion about the Christian religion, but it still seems like there might be more subtle ways for evangelicals to approach non-believers (or people of other faiths) other than starting off the whole conversation with an offer to pray.
To me, it seems like a better approach would be to start off with extremely vague psuedo-philosophical things, and then based on the responses of the mark…err potential convert…slowly work their way up to more direct questions.
For example, they could start off with, “Hey, y’know, have you ever thought about why we’re here?” or “Hey, what do you think happens after we all die?”…and then very slowly work their creationist evangelical dogma into the conversation.
But then again, I guess it is easier to teach people to just go for the throat from the beginning since their mission is to convert as many people as possible in as little time as possible. Time is money!
Torsten: “Nobody said praying alone heals people.”
Perhaps “nobody” on this thread said that. Notwithstanding, the question remains—-why *wouldn’t* “praying, alone” heal people? If the person making the “distant healing” request – in this case, the nurse in question – is asking a being they believe to have unlimited free will(omnipotence), I simply don’t see a logical reason why this being’s powers are only assumed to be effective when they are employed in tandum with those of mere mortals. ‘Care to elaborate?
Continues…. “- but it['praying'] helps the spirit.”
If, by “spirit”, you mean the “outlook” of patient who’s being prayed for, it depends on the individual. Many people who have deconverted from Christianity(and other faiths) are simply not interested in superstition in *any* capacity, regardless of how “well-meaning” someone may be. If the nurse had asked, “Hey, would you like me to slip my lucky rabbit’s foot under your pillow?”, she could probably expect the same types of negative reactions from many patients, including people who believe “prayer” works.
Continues… “That’s my belief.”
Okay.
Continues….”Nobody prays to get a broken bone straightened out.”
Remarkable. This seems to be said with the “eye of omniscience”. How on earth would you know the thoughts of every person of “faith”, including what “limits”(if any) they put on their respective deity? But more importantly, is the implication that “God” has limits as to what he/she/it can “heal”? I’m curious.
@Torsten:
Nobody said praying alone heals people.
Well, nobody except for…oh I dunno…JESUS CHRIST!!!:
“And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.”
- James 5:15-16
“Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.”
- Mark 11:24
and my all-time favorite:
“I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.”
- Matthew 21:21
Prayer is fun…as long as you don’t believe in it :D
I wish I would have kept the source for the version I read because it said that the patient had no problem with the nurse praying for them and that it was another person who over heard the conversation that reported it. Hmm… I wonder which story is true?
Unknown Nobody:
Oh grate thanx for sharing ur third-hand hearsay… Are you one of the authors of the bible???
HURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
@Torsten
It’s perfectly clear what the guidelines mean and unsolicited offers to pray for someone are not allowed. The whole idea is to protect vulnerable patients from conversion tactics. If the nurse can’t accept that then she should leave the NHS and work someone else.
@Unknown Nobody
No that was the first time when she was warned for giving out prayer cards. It seems she is another believer who feels the rules shouldn’t apply to them.
Regarding what Unknown Nobody mentioned about a third party making the report:
(for the other Americans reading, “sister” is what they call nurses in the UK, she wasn’t a nun). So apparently despite the fact that the patient in question was not herself ‘offended’ she still felt it merited being mentioned to other NHS personnel. Perhaps she didn’t feel comfortable confronting Mrs. Petrie herself, but she evidently was concerned enough to bring up a day later to someone else. Nurses (and all medical personnel really) are in a position of power over their patients, and many patients will not stand up to doctors, nurses, etc. Especially older patients, who tend to do whatever their doctors tell them without questioning.
I was a bit doubtful on this one (suspension of the nurse) until I read that it was against the NHS guidelines to offer prayer. I don’t think that is the case in US hospitals – although I’ve had a bad experience with a social worker who, instead of helping me understand how I was going to feed and bathe myself with a cast from ankle to groin, thought she could do some quick psychotherapy on me which just upset me further. I can just imagine what would happen if a nurse thought I need some spiritual guidance instead.
I personally find having people offer to pray for me embarrassing, but if they want to go off on their own and do it and it makes them feel like they’re helping, that’s wasting their own time and I’m okay with that. That’s merely embarrassment. I would be offended if I was expected to take part in it, especially if I were ill and consequently feeling a bit more self-centered. People who are ill are in a weakened and vulnerable state – some may be comforted by prayer but other’s might be panicked. If you’re a religious person, though, you like to err towards the former.
Okay, so she was suspended and had done this multiple times and had received multiple complaints? Given that, I suppose I’m not overly upset then.
@cooledskin
I also think her attitude as reported hasn’t exactly helped. She seems incapable of actual acknowledging that she has done anything wrong. The good thing is as she’s a bank nurse the work might be a little on the thin side from now on — on the other hand she may become a cause célèbre for religious freedom in the workplace or as I like to think of it my religious views have to take precedence other your non-religious views and your other religion views.
And therein lies everything we need to know about prayer…
“What do you think — should she have been suspended for offering prayer to a patient?”
If the patient asked for the prayer, then no. If the patient did not want a prayer, then yes. (Although I should mention that the patient should have complained first and the nurse continued to pray anyway, while on shift…. THEN she should be suspended or fired.)
I’m a nursing student, and it’s interesting b/c there is a lot of emphasis placed on assessing and meeting the spiritual needs of the patient. I have no clue what I’ll do if a patient asks me to pray for/with them. Perhaps I’ll schedule a meeting with the church chaplain for them or just smile and be polite (but not really take that as a time to go in a tirade about atheism).
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