A popular Christian pastor, John Piper, thinks spanking is okay. Actually, that’s a bit of an understatement. He’s really excited about spanking.
He believes God makes us suffer, so we should imitate him and make our children suffer by spanking them.
No, I’m not kidding, and no, this isn’t a parody.
Here are some quotes from “Would Jesus spank a child?“:
If Jesus were married and had children, I think he would have spanked the children.
Actually, I think the wonder-working Jesus would have been able to control his kids without hitting them, don’t you? If he could walk on water and rise from the dead, it seems doubtful he’d need to spank his children to keep them in line.
But why would someone think it’s a great idea to hit children? For Piper, it’s a view of God who hurts his children because he loves them:
Deep down, does this person believe that God brings pain into our lives? Because … God disciplines every son whom he loves, and spanks everyone that he delights in (my paraphrase). And the point there is suffering. God brings sufferings into our lives, and the writer of the Hebrews connects it to the parenting of God of his children….
God uses suffering to discipline his children. So do we.
Oh, so God’s like an abusive husband who hits his wife because he loves her! I get it now. He’d be gentle and kind, but that just wouldn’t be as effective, you know?
God also kills his children throughout the Bible. This seems only a couple steps away from, “But God said to kill our children if they talk back! And he talked back to me! God hurts us if we disobey him, and we should hurt our kids if they disobey us! That’s what the Bible says, officer! I’m the one in the right here! I’m just following God’s holy word!”
Can it get any worse? Why yes, it can:
Now, you don’t damage a child. You don’t give him a black eye or break his arm. Children have little fat bottoms so that they can be whopped.
That’s kind of like saying kids have hair to be pulled, or girls wear bras to be snapped. He continues:
Spanking is so clean! It’s so quick! It’s so relieving! A kid feels like he has done atonement and he is out of there and happy…. I just think spanking is really healthy for children.
I just don’t know how to reply to that. Clean, relieving, and healthy for children? What an odd perspective.
So what do you think — would the biblical Jesus have spanked his children? And of more relevance, should we spank our children?
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220 Comments
Wow! I always knew that christians were secretly sadistic but couldn’t show it clearly. Thanks for finding these quotes and aiding in my search.
“God uses suffering to discipline his children.”
Blessed be those who blame the victim, for they will always believe their relative good luck is confirmation from the Almighty that they are righteous.
I wonder if the good pastor was spanked as a child. I’m guessing quite a lot. He seems to hold a masochistic admiration towards abusive father figures.
At least that would make his statements a little less inexcusable, though not less idiotic.
First off, I’m pretty sure children have fat little bottoms so that they can sit in comfort. That’s certainly why I have one, though I may have overdone it a bit.
More substantially, I was involved in a debate on just this topic with a group of evangelicals some years ago, and there is nothing you can do to change their minds. The best I could do was irritate them by consistently referring to the practice as ‘beating your children’.
I believe the main advocate at the time was James Dobson – if you want to be really outraged try doing a little research on his views. I particularly (dis)like his idea that some kids are “just asking for it.”
For an end-to-end analysis of the topic of human suffering and how it’s explained in the bible, I recommend the new book by Bart Ehrman; God’s Problem: How the Bible Fails to Answer Our Most Important Question – Why We Suffer.
I’m not opposed to mild corporal punishment, as long as it’s delivered in a carefully controlled fashion. If it’s accompanied with a parent losing their temper, it’s a dangerously bad example for a child, and the strong implication is that physical violence is okay. If you can ensure that it’s accompanied by a clear explanation to the child of why what they’ve done is wrong, and administer punishment in a dispassionate way, I think it can be appropriate.
Care should also be given with the extent of the punishment; sure, in some ways children are resilient, but in others they are pretty delicate. I firmly believe that any punishment which causes pain or distress for longer than about a minute is inappropriate.
Personally, I wouldn’t use corporal punishment at all – in order to punish a child dispassionately, and make sure they understood why they were being punished, I think I’d need be in a state where it’s easier all round to use non-physical punishments. But I wouldn’t automatically assume that someone who did use corporal punishment was abusive; although witnessing it would probably make me sensitive to any other signs that they crossed a line into abuse.
It’s tricky because effective punishment needs two things – first, to be immediate, because children will have trouble equating bad behaviour to punishment if there’s a gap; and second to not inadvertantly reward bad behaviour by giving children more attention than good behaviour.
Well this is cute for you to blog about. I know atheists and agnostics (personally) who spank. So that’s proof you’re just fishing for crap about Christians so you can whine more about them.
I agree that some of his statements are a little “off” in how they come across. But I do agree with his overall assessment. Spanking did great for me. It’s not “abuse.” It’s just another thing to whine about on the sliding scale of “relevance” (which is a freakin’ WHIP). We need standards.
The main issue is where it comes from – the heart of discipline or anger. Many parents spank or discipline in other ways out of their anger or own selfishness, NOT to help the child. So even if someone “reasons” with their child (stupid) and it comes from anger and selfishness then I don’t agree with that either.
But spank away. And STOP picking issues to whine about Christians. Atheists spank too. Agnostics spank too. And there’s NO WHERE in the Bible that says “be thouest the greatesteth personeth evereth by no spankingeth your brat child.”
Why it’s a big deal that John Piper likes spanking, I have no idea.
You’re fishing bro, you’re really fishing.
The last few weeks have been fairly sad on INTELLIGENT blog topics. Muslim stuff was ok but that’s about it.
Like “Confused” I don’t have a problem with mild corporal punishment in certain situations. Giving a two-year-old a mild swat on the bum for throwing a temper tantrum isn’t abuse, regardless of how many times people claim that it is.
But this pastor being genuinely excited about it is pretty messed up. If a parent thinks spanking their kid is “relieving”, they’re a lousy parent.
For the record though, in 15 years as a Christian I knew plenty of parents who spanked their kids but never heard one say they were happy or relieved to do it.
My main problem is this pastor is really excited about spanking and says he gets that way from his view of God. That’s just weird and borderline sadistic.
Yeah the whole “God uses suffering as discipline” is troubling language to use when discussing spanking small children. Is the goal of spanking to make children behave or is the goal to cause them to suffer? Sorry but John Piper and the whole gang of Cartman (RESPECT MY AUTHORITY) pastors running around lately are scary.
Plus there is the whole Christian Domestic Discipline people who claim women have fat bottoms made for spanking too. I wish I never came across CDD. I will never be able to look at a Christian couple again without wondering if there is wife spanking going on.
Giving a two-year-old a mild swat on the bum for throwing a temper tantrum isn’t abuse, regardless of how many times people claim that it is.
Given Piper’s language, I suspect it is not just a mild swat on the bum. The CDD people spank their wives with 50 plus times – often with belts or wooden boards. The goal is to get them into hysterical tears. They explicity say that.
I used to be okay with spanking until I read some of the harm that can be caused by it through my psych studies. I used to think “Oh, well, I was spanked and I turned out okay!” But really, I just didn’t know what damage to look for. I won’t repeat the books of why not spank here–you can google it and find loads of info for yourself, but I am now very anti-spanking except for in the case of an emergency when you need to get the child’s attention fast (i.e., they are about to stick their finger in the electrical outlet).
Spanking was the primary form of punishment in our house. I watch Supernanny a lot because I don’t want to fall back on it when I don’t know what else to do. It amazes me the results she gets without ever once resorting to spanking.
Yes, Jesus would have spanked his children. He followed the laws of the Jewish scriptures, which also teach to kill your child if they dishonor you. Jesus even quoted this teaching in Matthew 15:4, 19:19; Mark 7:10, 10:19; Luke 18:20.
We should avoid spanking our children. In the few occasions I have done so, I have always done it in anger. If parental punishment comes in a time of anger, it becomes more vengeance than punishment. When we tell our children never to hit, but continue spank them we are being hypocrites. It is not difficult to teach our children to respect us without being physical.
I agree with lauradee,
I would only spank in an emergency (like my small child is about to run in front of a bus), but there are many many many ways to give immediate and age appropriate discipline to shape a child’s behavior.
Time out is a great one. But also, positive reinforcement works wonders even on younger children (3-4 years old). My sister in law uses a sticker chart linked to certain rewards. She sets goals that are specific to each of her two children (such as: No temper tantrum today gets three stickers, then she says to my nephew: You look like you’re about to get upset, do you want to lose a sticker or do you want to use your words to tell me what is wrong?)
Anyhow as a teacher I wasn’t allowed to spank, so I used other means of reinforcing good behavior and extinguishing bad behavior. I know it’s harder for parents, though, because those kids know how to push buttons!
Excellent post Wintermute. But spanking does teach a lot. It teaches that it’s ok for a bigger person to violate your boundaries. It’s ok to hit. It’s ok to be hit. Love is violent. It’s good to be violent. You are hit because you are bad/do bad things. Be afraid of authority. Sneak next time – don’t get caught. I could go on – spanking teaches a lot – but nothing good.
I was spanked by my parents. It was when I was just on the very edge of reason (I can barely remember it) and it happened maybe twice. I think that the way it was used was to establish that if I did something really bad, this might happen, and afterwards it was only used as a threat rather than something that actually happened. Within a couple of years they were reasoning with me or using punishments involving taking away privileges instead, and I’m pretty sure that they didn’t like spanking in the first place. I’m not sure if I’ll use it when I have kids; it’s technically illegal here but I’m pretty sure people are continuing to do it. If I have to spank my kids regularly I’ll know something’s gone horribly wrong with my parenting, at least.
One thing that this does remind me of is the last time I saw someone spanked (sort of). I’ll warn you now, we’re heading into freaky geeky territory: I play an internet RPG, and that’s where this happened. A couple of my closest friends are in a loving lesbian relationship with a domme/sub power dynamic (the sub is a Christian, by the way; she goes to Oral Roberts University). Something happened in-game to cause the sub to hurt the domme accidentally, and to punish her, the domme ordered her over her knee then spanked her. I got the same kind of impression from this writing that I got from that incident; yes, it’s about punishment and power and control, but also something about enjoying it for its own sake, and possibly sexual overtones. The difference was that the sub in this case kissed her partner before bending over; the children of this guy and whoever listens to his views are probably not going to be quite so accepting and willing partners.
Now that I’ve completely destroyed any impressions of normality you might have about me, I should point out that there are an awful lot of people on the internet and in real life who enjoy spanking that way, both giving and receiving; I’ve dated a couple of them, but I’m not one of them myself. Between adults, I think it’s ok, but if you as a parent are doing it to your child for those reasons, I think you have crossed the line to not just physical, but also sexual abuse.
I think it’s a good example of how the Bible can be used to twist people’s behaviors and rationalize/justify cruel actions.
I’ve never had to spank my daughter and she’s wonderfully well-behaved around us and around others, so I don’t see much of a need for spanking, though I’m not entirely opposed to it.
However, I agree with Daniel about the “glee” that this pastor has with the whole idea of spanking. It almost seems like he’d like to spank kids regardless of their behavior because his whack interpretation of the Bible seems to indicate that suffering is good.
Oiy!
I think it depends on context. If you’re hitting the kid out of anger, then you’re definitely in the wrong, since you’re letting the child control you, and teaching him/her that violence is an acceptable outlet for frustration. If a spanking is given now and then, I don’t see the harm, as long as the parent is clear to the child about what he/she has done wrong and that the spanking is a direct result of bad behavior.
Honestly, though, most spanking isn’t nearly as upsetting to a kid as taking away the videogames, dessert, or time with friends.
I agree with Daniel and confused that mild spanking isn’t an abuse if done with right intention and temperament. My dad didn’t spank because he couldn’t do it without anger, but my mom didn’t have that problem. My favorite was “this is going to hurt me more than you” which at the time I didn’t believe. But I never doubted she loved me, and I’m not carrying deep emotional scars from it. Like others here as I reached adolescence, they found punishments that were more effective than spanking considering my age and pain tolerance.
Some parents do get a joy out of corporal punishment and I think that shows some sort of mental problem. Children also react differently to spanking, I’ve got one child that if he gets a swat he’ll cry and another if he gets one gives a death glare. So spanking has been effective with the one and though its never pulled off of the table with the other, different punishments have been more effective.
I think one of the problems that I’ve seen with parents that hate corporal punishment is that often they try to reason with children like they are adults. I remember seeing a woman trying to explain to her two year old that eating too much candy would lead to obesity and diabetes. I had to turn around to keep from laughing at the scene being played out, as the child was listening to the speech with a look of puzzlement. Or my other favorite I’m going to count to 3 okay 1, 2, 2.5, 2.75…….. . That’s simply showing that you can be manipulated and pushed. Punishment is effective when its done immediately, is consistent, and is done in a way that the child knows that their parents still love them. BTW here’s link to show not all studies say spanking is abuse.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1191825-2,00.html
Spanking is so clean! It’s so quick! It’s so relieving! A kid feels like he has done atonement and he is out of there and happy…. I just think spanking is really healthy for children.
Yeah. REAL healthy. My parents used to spank me with a bread paddle, all the time. Now I can’t even look at one without having my butt cheeks tense up involuntarily.
Interestingly, my elementary, junior high, and high schools all used corporal punishment as the default disciplinary action. My parents — conservative Baptists in the middle of the Bible Belt — refused to sign the releases allowing our principal to beat either my brother or me. They never spanked us, not once, choosing instead to reward good behavior, take away privileges for bad behavior, and cultivate an overall respect for the rules in our home. This guy is a total crackpot, and a lot of religious types beat their kids with glee, but it’s not 100% by any means.
Mental and physical abuse are rampant throughout the evangelical subculture. It reinforces the pathologically low self-esteem that forms the basis of their theology.
I’m sure Piper does find the topic exciting. There is a complicated relationship between pleasure and pain, and sublimated eroticism is an important part of Christian theology. I’m convinced that the emphasis on hell is a form of titillation. Many fundies still believe that in heaven, they’ll all be gathered on a humongous mezzanine, watching the rest of us being roasted alive for all of eternity. It’s a sadomasochistic fantasy, and it really gets a lot of them off.
That being said – Piper is an abomination, a Calvinist who believes that God has predestined the vast majority of human beings to eternity in hell. This is a man who said, twenty years ago, while his children were young -
I have three sons. Every night after they are asleep I turn on the hall light, open their bedroom door, and walk from bed to bed, laying my hands on them and praying. Often I am moved to tears of joy and longing. I pray that Karsten Luke become a great physician of the soul, that Benjamin John become the beloved son of my right hand in the gospel, and that Abraham Christian give glory to God as he grows strong in his faith.
But I am not ignorant that God may not have chosen my sons for his sons. And-, though I think I would give my life for their salvation, if they should be lost to me, I would not rail against the Almighty. He is God. I am but a man. The potter has absolute rights over the clay. Mine is to bow before his unimpeachable character and believe that the Judge of all the earth has ever and always will do right.
Translation: “God can send my kids to hell. I don’t have a problem with it.”
On Hemant’s blog, some months ago, I said something along the lines of “Imagine being one of his children and reading this.” One of his boys actually responded, thanked me for my concern, and asserted that the issue is not whether or not it’s palatable – but whether or not it’s true. The denial was palpable.
I believe all three boys have followed him into the ministry. Needless to say, they all wound up being as psychologically devastated as he is.
I know that fundies are damaged. I should be more compassionate, but they’re such miserable examples of walking fertilizer that I can’t find it in myself to care.
Back when I was a Christian, I remember losing a lot of respect for him when he tried to make the argument we still HAD to tithe 10%. Greedy little mongrel.
The people who wrote the bible must have come from some really screwed abusive homes since the god they made up show all the charechteristics we find in men that abuse their wives and kids. You have the crazy unreasonable punishment for every minor offense always telling you he beat the crap out off you because he loves you. And then there’s the mad jealousy that got him to use 3 out of the 10 commandments, supposedly the most important principles for a good and holy life on the standard I love you but if I catch you even looking at another god you’re dead line
I think Jeff Eyges hit the nail on the head (forgive the expression). You can almost sense this guy getting aroused the way he talks about “fat little bottoms” and how it “relieves”. I think the only one getting relief is him. He’s clearly got a spanking fetish. It’d be funny if we find out in a couple years he was paying dominatrixes to whip his ass. Y’know, for the atonement. ::smirk::
Dan, I asked if there’s a difference between spanking for discipline and spanking out of anger. You said yes, and that there are appropriate scenarios for spanking as discipline.
In your opinion, do you think the Bible teaches that parents should spank their children in anger? I understand your objection to John Piper’s expressed glee and joy. But aside from that, do the authors of the Bible really instruct parents to physically abuse their children in anger?
There is more weird logic in the pastor’s article than just him being all excited about spanking children.
This goes back to the “god is evil” idea. If we follow this logic, god is responsible for all the suffering in the world. And, ultimately, hell must be heaven?
Wait, girls don’t wear bras to be snapped? Oh dear, I’ve got some apologizing to do. ;-)
That guy’s not the only one who spanks those whom he delights in.
This supports my view that Christianity is hostile.
Pavlovian carrot/stick, reward/punishment (eternal punishment!), as if were were animals without any innate ethics, is hostile.
A wise friend of 28 years, now in his eighties, once said to his class: “It is the ultimate act of hostility to teach a child that God is hostile”.
Okay, I’mma put a stop to this right now:
The line “Spare the rod and spoil the child” does not appear anywhere in the Bible. It is a (somewhat paraphrased) line from a satirical poem written centuries later.
Instead, the Bible has this to say on spanking:
“Withhold not correction from a child: for if thou strike him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and deliver his soul from hell.”
My mother was very fond of spanking to deliver souls from hell. Fortunately for me, she recognized that the level of punishment she had received from her mother was incredibly excessive and managed to keep it toned down with us. Not that it didn’t hurt. To this day, if I goof off for too long instead of working I get a phantom ache in my derriere. (It didn’t help that I would intentionally refrain from crying out as she hit me. She would keep going until I made sound.)
Thinking back at the pain I went through, I can honestly say that I believe there were benefits. I have a considerable threshhold for pain, which is very useful. But perhaps best is that I can look back and realize that while spanking persuaded me to obey, it inspired none of the lessons and values that I would take into my adulthood. I learned those via reasoning and empathy (plus one threat of hellfire).
The most epic punishment I ever received came during my teenage years. In order to break a bad and rather dangerous habit
This plays a bit on the “mirror neuron” phenomenon that enables you to feel guilty when someone else is angry at you. By telling me to invent my own punishment, she basically forced me to admit that I had done wrong, and then to face the level of wrongness associated by meting out a suitable punishment. (In the end, I used my high creativity to invent a punishment that fit the letter of the crime without being too unpleasant, but contemplating the whole thing beforehand had a profound effect.)
Is the inverse true? If god likes it when parents beat their kids, does he hate parents who don’t beat their kids?
I don’t know anything about psychology, but I find it very interesting how quick those who were subjected to physical discipline are to defend it.
I really think there is some Stockholm Syndrome-like coping mechanism that convinces children they deserve physical punishment, as opposed to any other kind. This carries into adulthood, and is reflected in their own child-rearing technique.
These days, when I sit down and think about hitting another human being, I realize that it’s always wrong: even if we convince ourselves that it’s for the good of the child, the act itself is still wrong. Hell, we don’t even allow prison guards to hit convicted murderers and rapists, why should we hit our kids?
Parents need to realize the gravity of the act of striking a child, if they are going to even consider doing it, and I think that parents who were hit themselves are inherently less capable of grasping the seriousness of it.
…Wow, I sound like those liberal anti-spanking people my parents hated so much.
Read (as much as you can stand) of Bible Based Baby Beating by Jim Benton: http://saltosobrius.blogspot.com/2006/10/jim-benton-on-bible-based-baby-beating.html
If your kids are microwaving pets, I don’t think that a spanking is going to do them any good.
This Marcionism has led you down a slippery slope there my friend. Have you ever considerd…reconsidering?
The reason I ask Marcion is not due to judgment, its just that I really never hear any love, compassion, tenderness from any of your posts and God is love.
Just wondering.
Spanking and slapping are not the same? How would YOU prefer to be hit? A child should never, never NEVER be hit. There’s no way around it – there will be trauma and ISSUES because the person they trust violated and betrayed them. I’m shocked that our society is not long past this discussion. Spanking/hitting/corporal punishment – whatever euphamism you want to use – it is ABUSE – it is ASSAULT – it is WRONG.
** ‘the redemptive power’ of childhood suffering **
Those old time diseases, bring ‘em back, they were good enough for me.
Yes ma’am, by jingo . . . why I can remember when it was every child’s right to suffer as the good Lord intended with:
1. chicken pox: and if you’re real lucky God’ll give you shingles at age 65.
2. measles: two kinds. I had both at the same time; I survived. My parents were afraid of heart damage or death. What did they know? I loved the delirium induced by 104 F fever.
3. mumps: don’t suck on a lime candy. Plus you get to look like John McCain on both sides of your face!
4. polio: who wouldn’t want to be brave like FDR — or better yet end up in an iron lung.
5. leukemia: well Jesus hasn’t seen fit to show them doctors how to cure all forms yet. But, I’m sure He will in the fullness of time.
6. Almost forgot: diphtheria/pertusis/tetanus: hell, those affected everybody. But, kids and oldsters got to enjoy coughing their lives out. And, lockjaw . . . who wouldn’t run that risk.
Parents you can expose their kids to the ‘redemptive power of suffering’ by not vaccinating them. But, that’s OK because suffering is better than the avoidance of suffering.
Think of it this way. Your kid might not live to pollute the gene pool with your genetic disposition to gross stupidity.
Once, my two year old managed to squirm out of her car seat and stand while I was driving (back then car seats were used in the front of vehicles). When she wouldn’t sit down as per my request, I reached over and swatted her behind, hard enough to make her take notice and sit down. She burst into tears, too, but from shock, pain,.
That was the only time I ever struck either of my kids. I think they’ve grown up to be fine adults. Of course, there was sometimes a tendency to drop the H-Bomb – “You’re grounded for a month!” – which was counter-productive at best.
Time-outs and temporarily canceling privileges seemed to work best.
This is something I am quite passionate about, so reading this touched a sore spot (sorry for the pun) for me. I could go on and on all day, but bottom line… NO we should not spank our kids. I think the best way to gain respect is to respect the other person. Children, very young children, can reason much better than most people give them credit for. I have been very successful at reasoning with my 2-year-old since she was barely over a year old. Now does this mean she never throws a tantrum? Of course not. But I would honestly be worried about a 2 year old that didn’t ever throw a fit. But we talk about it, and she calms down.
Spanking teaches a child, “OBEY ME!” I would much rather my child know the reasons for right and wrong, speak intelligently about them, and make her own desicions and there are many other methods of discipline that foster this much better.
Yikes! That makes me scared for any children of that man or his followers, and, hell, I plan on spanking my kids! But I’m not EXCITED about the idea or look forward to it. I hope I would never have to do it.
But.. geeze..
When I worked in childcare, obviously we had to keep the kids under control and without laying a hand on them. If we had hit them, their parents would have taken us to court. But we managed to keep somewhere in the region of 70 kids (about 10 kids per supervisor) at any one time under control and behaving relatively well without resorting to physical punishment. This was usually done by rewarding them with praise when they were behaving well, and asking them to sit in the corner by themselves and think about what they’ve done if they were behaving poorly, or taking the time to talk to them about why they were behaving poorly and making it clear why their poor behaviour is not acceptable. This sort of treatment seems to work for the majority of children (especially once you’ve built up a bit of trust and a rapport with them), so I don’t see why parents, who can have a much closer relationship with their children than a mere childcare supervisor, don’t take this approach and instead feel the need to resort to physical punishment. And I’ve been unfortunate enough to witness some parents resort immediately to quite forceful physical punishment instead of trying any other approach first.
Similarly, Mother Theresa loved her some suffering (other people’s of course) as it brought them closer to the Lord.
Mentalists.
What age of children are we talking about? Is it the 5 month old child in the picture you provided. If not and this is not a parody isn’t it a bit misleading?
Spanking works. I don’t think it is the first choice. There is a difference between spanking and beating. And who would spank an infant?
Spanking is not a Christian issue only.
Well, I don’t think this is so much a spiritual issue. I work as a social worker with a local Children and Youth agency, and trust me, it’s certainly not been my experience that most people who abuse their kids are committed Christians.
There are people out there from every stripe, and philosophy who can be abusive. I personally would not consider every type of physical discipline to be abuse. The law certainly does not.
I think it best to consider the age, and temperment of the child, the nature of the issue, etc. What type of discipline works, and is best for one child, may not be for another.
if we wouldn’t have sinned in the first place, there wouldn’t be bad children. No need for spanking.
But we did.
Now we have to learn from mistakes which takes discipline. Discipline never really feels good.
Piper is not advocating Go brethren and spank away, he is saying, as far as parenting goes, kids need to be disciplined; spanking associates pain with a wrong action. Its psychology. No it does not work for every one. But he never said that it did.
Perhaps the context of the sermon was more in order. Perhaps for him, many parents were in disagreements with parenting styles. For christian parents, Piper probably felt the need to address it in a biblical way. He equated Christ with this idea in saying that he would spank. I don’t agree with that. Christ does not have kids, we can’t and shouldn’t assume anything on him. But God, he spanks the crap out of israel in the OT. They never learned, so he had to save them out of their own mistakes. As parents, the idea is to keep our kids from doing wrong that will harm them. That’s the redemptive aspect of God that I do believe you have missed.
If you don’t want to spank your kids, then don’t. What he is saying is not scripture, its simply a perspective to either take or leave.
Before this thread winds down, I’d like to throw in two more points:
1. Most fundies take child-rearing advice from Dobson – a pathetic excuse for a human being, a man who smacks his dachshund with a belt for having the presumption to want to sleep next to the space heater, instead of its doggie bed on the other side of the room. Why doesn’t Dobson place its bed next to the heater? That isn’t the point – the dog refused to obey! The poor thing’s lucky it hasn’t got an immortal soul; it would merit eternal damnation for its rebellion!
As I said – it’s all about control.
2. Re: Christian theology, punishment and sublimated eroticism – it can be witnessed as it finds its ultimate expression in the self-flagellation orgies displayed in some Catholic countries. The Muslims aren’t immune to this sort of thing, either.
We really are an incredibly fucked-up species. Christians present themselves as the cure, when in reality they are the most egregious manifestation of the illness.
Piper “If Jesus were married and had children, I think he would have spanked the children.”
You “Actually, I think the wonder-working Jesus would have been able to control his kids without hitting them, don’t you?”
You fail. Spanking doesn’t equal hitting. That’s all that really needs to be said, besides that if parents did still spank their children we wouldn’t have all the crime and disrespect for personal property rights we have now. Fact is kids need to be spanked and you don’t really need a god to tell you that. Just get your head out of the sand.
Jeff,
I don’t agree with Dr. Dobson on all points by any means, especially the gay marriage issue, but I understood this doggie miscreant took to sleeping on top of the warmed toilet seat at night, and would not relinquish his comfy post no matter what. He was growling, and baring those sharp little pearlywhites every time nature called. (Maybe the story has been changed in the tellin.)
Anyway, if you have a strong-willed dog, you had better be the alpha, leader of the pack, especially if it’s a big doggie. Wouldn’t use a belt, though.
I’m a push over myself, so when we went to the breeders to pick out our beautiful border collie, I definitely didn’t pick that pushy pup who growled, and showed his cute teeth when I put my hand near the puppy chow bowl, a bad sign of things to come in my book.
Instead, I have lay back Jack!!!
And, hey, I’m a Christian, definitely a lover, not a fighter. Don’t want to control anybody. :)
Grace,
That’s the way I heard the story, but you may be right. Bottom line – Dobson is a tool.
Grace said: “I don’t agree with Dr. Dobson on all points by any means, especially the gay marriage issue, but I understood this doggie miscreant took to sleeping on top of the warmed toilet seat at night, and would not relinquish his comfy post no matter what. He was growling, and baring those sharp little pearlywhites every time nature called. (Maybe the story has been changed in the tellin.)”
Irrelevant. Any dog trainer worth their salt will tell you NEVER to hit a dog to train it. It only makes them mean. I’d be snarling and baring my teeth too if I was his dog.
Wouldn’t Jesus have performed a miracle and made his children behave? I mean if he can cure leprosy, blindness and death, I’m sure he could have coped with a bit of ADHD.
I personally thought it sounded like this man enjoys a good spanking when he’s been a bad boy himself, and is projecting that publicly in a way that he think will be acceptable to his audience. Sort of like how that Haggard is a self-hating homosexual who preached against homosexuality to his audience. But that bit about children’s fat bottoms freaked me out just a tad. And that stuff about it making children happy. Freak.
Love of good requires hatred of evil. Because I love children I would demand severe punishment for rapists and child-molesters. This is one reason I find it difficult to be either an orthodox Christian or a classical Marcionite, because both of those systems would allow a rapist to go to heaven if they merely believed in Jesus. My antipauline Marcionism does not allow that. In my system, everyone pays for their sins in the end in a proportional way (not just a standard eternity in hell for any and every sin regardless how big or small). Its about minimizing your sins to minimize your punishment, not getting a skip hell card and escaping scott-free.
Here is the ignorance of the article in full bloom.
Daniel quotes Piper and then responds:
________________________________________
God uses suffering to discipline his children. So do we.
Oh, so God’s like an abusive husband who hits his wife because he loves her!
________________________________________
You see? Yes indeed those of you with eyes do. Poor Daniel treats the parenting of a child to that of marriage with a spouse. Hmmm…apparently his instinctive view of women is rather “devolved” if he equates the authority and tutelage of a parent to a child with that of a husband to a wife.
Tsk tsk. More aimlessness.
It never fails; everyatheist blog I read has a resident troll. He doesn’t like the blog or anyone on it – but, for some reason, he never leaves.
A more relevant question might be whether Jesus ever spanked the monkey.
Whoops, wrong username.
Jeff Eyges
Alex – why are you here?
______________________
While acknowledging its social rudeness, why are you here? Is there supposedly some demarcation of virtue you are implying that sets you and others above my intentions? Are you really interested in going down a road of sanctimony and fascism such as this?
I’m posting this again because it makes more sense at the bottom. Also, about his born evil crap, I didn’t say that. Nor do I advocate spanking a baby. What kind of morons are you?
I’m not talking about abuse, just regular spanking. I can’t help it you don’t know the difference. And I would dare say that in the case of abuse, the parents are hitting (not just spanking) more out of anger and frustration from other concerns than for actual discipline.
Where does the bible say “only hit your kid on the butt”?
I’m not talking about the Bible. I don’t see this as a religious concept. That’s just common sense, which unfortunately many people lack (due, in my opinion, to drug and alcohol use). But look, let’s say some drunkard is tired of listening to his kid jabber on about Ninja Turtles so he punches him in the face. Well, that’s definitely abuse. But let’s say a loving parent tells their kid not to shave the next door neighbor’s dog, and they do it anyway, and then they spank them. The situation is totally different, the purpose is totally different, and the intensity is totally different. If we don’t teach our kids to respect other people’s stuff we will create a society of criminals. At the same time, however, if we go around knocking our kids around because we don’t want to talk to them or we’re just idiots who don’t know what to do with them, the result will also be a society of criminals.
Sounds like you’re contradicting yourself. What are you justifying?
Spanking? Spanking out of “anger and frustration”? What’s your point?
But you believe it, don’t you?
What kind of loving Christian – er, hostile, verbally-attacking name-caller are you?
“But you believe it, don’t you?”
No I don’t believe people are born evil. I’m not a Calvinist.
“What’s your point?”
That spanking and abuse are not the same. Spanking and hitting are not the same. Spanking and slapping are not the same.
But mostly, that giving a kid a timeout for microwaving the neighbor’s cat is not enough. The kid wasn’t born evil, but they are evil now, and saying “Don’t do that again” does not meet the case, giblet-head.
“What kind of loving Christian – er, hostile, verbally-attacking name-caller are you?”
An antipauline Marcionite almost agnostic.
I believe in spanking my child not because of any religious or non-religious views, but merely because it seems to have a stronger impact on his perception of certain actions. When he gets into the real world and is fending for himself, no one is going to be watching over him constantly. He will need to be able to make good decisions and know there could be consequences to those decisions and that sometimes they cause pain. If I shelter my child from all pain while under my watch, I’m doing them a serious disservice.
By doing that , Shawn, you’re really just teaching him pain-avoidance. You aren’t teaching him the critical discernment skills and self-discipline he’ll need to “fend for himself”.
This is unbelievably EVIL. I was spanked as a child – I suffered years of post-traumatic stress, drug addiction, violent marriage (love = violence, right??? I hit you because I love you??? What else is spanking supposed to teach???)
When I had my child, I decided that NO WAY was I ever going to hit. Hitting is bad. Period. It wasn’t that long ago that hitting your wife was acceptable (but only if she was “bad” and “deserved it”). We are now horrified by this. Why would it EVER be acceptable to hit a child? Someone completely defenseless? It also used to be ok to hit your servant or slave to keep them in line.
There is no such thing as “good hitting” and “bad hitting”. It’s all bad. Parents who hit are lazy and uninformed – usually not evil. But they need to be told that this is NOT how to raise a child.
Two more points – my son is now 23 years old (never been spanked). He is gentle, well-adjusted, moral, etc.
Last point – my parents spanked because “Dr” James Dobson, that evangelical devil – said in his book that you should spank children between the ages of 18 months and 12 years (I guess spanking outside of that age group would be wrong). Evangelical christians are very, very guilty of massive child abuse (and trying to legitimize it). Sometimes I wish there was a hell….
Whoa, whoa there! “I found a sadistic Christian” does not lead to “Christians are sadistic.” The majority of Christians, just like the majority of humanity in general, are perfectly decent, intelligent people. Those Christians just happen to be misguided on a point or two. But you would have no more trouble finding an atheist who believes in beating children than you would finding a Christian who believes in beating children. The atheist would just have a different justification they tell themselves for why it is right.
I particularly (dis)like his idea that some kids are “just asking for it.”
To be honest, in some ways, kids sometimes are – deliberate bad behaviour is often about trying to attract attention, even if it’s negative. The trouble is that corporal punishment reinforces this attitude in kids.
The problem for me is that “the strong implication is that physical violence is okay” is made whether you’re rational about it or not. It’s much easier to give the message that physical violence isn’t OK at all, and then introduce those times when it is later (e.g. self-defense, war, etc.)
Incidentally, another way of irritating the evangelicals was to refer to it as violence :)
I generally figure that kids are asking for attention, not a spanking; if they genuinely do want to be hit something has already gone very wrong.
Yeah, it’s okay to pick on all those false religions, but not Christianity! Actually, I think if anyone is whining here, it’s you whining that we have to stop making fun of your religion.
Now I’d be more happy to pick on an atheist if they were excited about child abuse, too. I’m an equal opportunity skewer. Just send me a link, and if it’s good, I’ll be happy to do a post on them.
I’m actually not opposed to mild spanking at an early age. But after you can reason with them, reward good behavior, and take away privileges/treats, then I think spanking is the wrong way to go about punishment.
My main problem is this pastor is really excited about spanking and says he gets that way from his view of God. That’s just weird and borderline sadistic.
My experience is most all parents spank for themselves more than the children. It’s that desire you have when you want to kick the dog. But you shouldn’t actually do it.
“So even if someone “reasons” with their child (stupid) and it comes from anger and selfishness then I don’t agree with that either.”
Yes, heaven forbid a parent consider their child a human being worthy of respect. Whew, glad you dodged that bullet.
/sarcasm
And there’s NO WHERE in the Bible that says “be thouest the greatesteth personeth evereth by no spankingeth your brat child.”
You are correct. The Bible says to killeth your brat children.
Shorter Stephen Webb: “Waaaaah!!!”
Piper is a major leader in evangelicism and drawing his rationale from the bible. How does: Biblical leader = athieists and agnostics (personally) who spank = whining?
And there’s NO WHERE in the Bible that says “be thouest the greatesteth personeth evereth by no spankingeth your brat child.”
It wouldn’t matter if there were, because people like you would simply choose to obey or ignore it as you please, making up your rationalizations as you go – you know, like you do with the other inconvenient parts of the Bible.
Stephen, I replied to this issue above in stating that the bible is clear:
“Spare the rod and spoil the child.”
This is the biblical justification for using violence on children. I don’t think Daniel is being nit picky, I think this is a legitimate question. Many churches, including the one I used to attend, advocate spanking of children based on that verse.
Stephen Webb, Drive-By Shooter:
What are you doing here?
Before you do any more drive-bys:
Go back and read the answers you claimed you wanted to your questions in the “Ted Haggard Is Completely Heterosexual” forum – and answer the questions asked of you!
Oh look! Stephen “Basically I Just Owned You” Weber made a post on the Internet! Still trolling for your invisible sky demon, Stevie? Shouldn’t you be abusing children or something?
We are allowed to pick on Muslims but not Christians? hmm anyone see the logical non sequitor here?
On to your main point. Of course you know atheists who spank as well as christians who spank. The difference is that there is no “atheist” reason to spank. There is no equation between spanking and atheism. There IS an equation between Christianity and corporal punishment. That was the point.
Corporal punishment is strongly recommended in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament). Most of the biblical quotations advocating corporal punishment of children appear in the book of Proverbs.
Prov 13:24: “He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes (diligently).”
Prov 22:15: “Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.”
Prov 23:13: “Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.”
Prov 23:14: “Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell (Shoel).”
Prov 29:15: “The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame.”
So unless you believe that there is a definition of “rod” that means ” a stern talking to” or “a time out” then we can in fact paraphrase this to biblical instruction to beat our kids.
To summarize:
“He who beateth his child shall save him from the natural idiocy that cometh with being a child and from the hell that awaits him from his evil actions. Further(eth) since a child learneth only through pain he ist a shame to his family who is not beaten into submission.”
AND finally
“Don’t worryeth your parental heart, because tho it may hurt him, it won’t killeth him, making you the greatest parent on earth”
peace
Sorry I am still laughing at the “mocking Christians is stupid but mocking muslims is intelligent blogging” inference. lol
“I’m actually not opposed to mild spanking at an early age. But after you can reason with them, reward good behavior, and take away privileges/treats, then I think spanking is the wrong way to go about punishment.”
Agreed. If fact I remember as a kid wishing my parents would go back to spanking. I don’t know exactly when they stopped, but when I was around 6 or 7 they got much more creative with their punishments. My younger siblings still got off with just a swat on the bum, but I had to have my dessert taken away (mild), TV taken away (medium), or spend an entire day doing yard work (yikes).
I also am an equal-opportunity offender!
At least to any group showing hostility, muddled thinking, rationalizations, attacks rather than reason.
Christians don’t have a monopoly on it; merely a very large market share! And I do detect some whining.
To all people in all groups:
Your right to choose to be an asshole does not discriminate on the basis of race, color, creed, religion, age, gender, orientation, or country of origin.
nice
Well, that would help with overpopulation…
Sadly he is incorrect Cello. It says to beat him AND to kill him in different places. Must be for different crimes. lol
The bible really isn’t a very nice place for children :)
Yes, that is true, but John Piper is very popular in the evangelical world, even among many moderate Christians. So this isn’t really a few people, it’s quite a few people.
What bothers me about this is that he published a book without even considering the vast amount of research that says there are problems with spanking. It’s his opinion with no fact behind it.
Rob G, the bible is clear:
“Spare the rod, spoil the child”
I call Christianity “hostile”.
Since atheism is simply the lack of belief in Gods, and not a complex system of behavior and ritual like Christianity, exactly what atheism-based “justification” would an atheist have for beating their children?
Seems to me there are a lot more reasons to beat your children if you’re a Christian. For one, God demands it. And if they go so far as to disrespect you (or a large number of other trivial infractions), you are specifically commanded by God to kill them.
It takes demented sadists to make these grim fairy tales up, demented sadists to preach it to others as if it is a good thing, and demented sadists to believe it and practice it.
Just because you pick and choose and don’t take the nastier parts of the bible literally, doesn’t mean that those parts aren’t there and that there aren’t many others who do take it literally. All your non-literal interpretation does is make you a heretic deserving of death (as stated in the bible) and condemn you to burn in hell for eternity (as stated in the bible).
oh, I just re-read my comment and wanted to clarify that when I said, “Yes, that is true,” I was referring to the majority of Christians being perfectly decent people.
I am not entirely sure if this part is true:
“But you would have no more trouble finding an atheist who believes in beating children than you would finding a Christian who believes in beating children.”
Perhaps, but that is an interesting assumption. I would like to see stats on that. Anecdotally speaking, I have found Christians more likely to spank/beat their children.
Actually it’s just an article, not a book.
Oh, my mistake. An article, then. Thanks for catching it.
When Jesus was a kid, he ran off at least once and they looked all over for him (Luke 2). What a disrespectful kid! They should have stoned him. :)
DON’T *SPANK* HIT *SPANK* OTHER *SPANK* CHILDREN *SPANK*!
AND when “we” [that means "you"; I don't have any or want any] teach them to lie by our own dishonesty and hypocrisy – the actions that speak louder than words – then tell them to be honest and to tell the truth… well, you see the results.
In your kids, in your mirror…
I remember one time my mom was spanking me out of anger, and to get back at her I kept laughing as loud as I could every time she hit me.
She was not amused.
Then Dad came home.
There was, uh, no more laughing.
My very fundie dad spanked me in anger so hard one time that I was screaming every time he hit me. And what had I done to deserve it?
I had hidden my favorite toy to prevent my half sister from destroying it and he said I was being selfish.
Do you think there’s a difference between spanking for discipline and spanking out of anger and frustration?
Funny, I had the exact same experience.
Ditto here. My mom spanked me on several occasions with little effect. When my Dad got involved, it was a different story. I only remember two spankings from my father. But I remember them vividly.
We must have respect from our children or we are in big trouble. But there is a fine line between respect and fear.
Certainly I do (see my post above), but the bible says spare the rod and spoil the child. It does not say thou shalt not spank thy child in anger.
Yes. Out of anger is always bad IMO. For discipline is only appropriate when they are too young to be reasoned with or it is simply impossible to reason with them for whatever reason. Spanking should ALWAYS be a last resort. I hope it’s never something I’m excited to do — if so, that probably means it’s a really bad idea.
Yes, thankfully not all believers follow their holy text nor their theological convictions to the logical conclusion.
This was an interesting post.
I’m convinced that the emphasis on hell is a form of titillation.
IME, many Christians just ignore the whole concept of hell. But for the ones that don’t, I wonder if there is some sort of measurable emotional high they get from the thought of eternal damnation. There’s certainly preachers that seem to get awfully excited by it.
The Bible doesn’t specify — it just says to beat your kids (Prov 13:24; 19:18; 22:15; 23:13; 23:14). It also says to stone them if they disrespect their parents (Lev 20:9). Thankfully, if Christians even realize its in there (I doubt most do), they think it’s stupid and don’t do it. But most still look to the Bible for advice about spanking for whatever reason, and it says SPANK.
Anyway, the Bible says to make your kids suffer. It says suffering is good. I actually think Piper makes a good biblical argument — it’s consistent and logical.
But I also think it’s not good to spank kids once they can be reasoned with.
“God disciplines every son whom he loves….”
This statement, imho, reveals the sickness in Calvinism. The celestial child protective agency needs to take the unloved children away from papa Yahweh and probably (after due diligence) the loved sons too.
I thought the proverbs you referenced were clearly referring to discipline instead of beating a child in anger, but I could be wrong.
As for the Leviticus passage, I’ll be honest up front, I’m not entirely sure what to make of it. We have
“If there is anyone who curses his father or his mother, he shall surely be put to death; he has cursed his father or his mother, his bloodguiltiness is upon him.”
I’m not sure ‘cursing’ your parents is to be interpreted, as you imply, as ‘any and all forms of disrespect.’ I could be wrong though
Daniel, just wondering…are you a parent?
Daniel-
I agree. I’m just pointing out that that bible does not differentiate about how to use a “rod” on one’s child.
What forms of verbal disrespect do you believe fulfills the biblical direction to kill your children?
Sure, it is saying to hit them for discipline. But it’s also not saying “but be sure not to be angry when you do it.”
It seems pretty straightforward that when you want to hit an animal or a child, you’re angry with them. Sure, you’re doing it to discipline them, but the hitting desire is there from the frustration.
There are many interpretations of that passage, because it is pretty crazy. I like “Question-I-thority”’s question — what could a child possibly say to their parents to deserve getting stones thrown at their head until they die? It’s just another crazy barbaric law in the OT. There are hundreds of others like it.
Well, in case you missed it, on another thread, Jesse is asserting that the slavery in the Bible really isn’t that bad, so you can see where he/she might be going with this.
MAD Magazine, circa 1970 cartoon:
“Don’t [smack] hit [whap] your sister!”
It’s a version [differently worded, of course!] of:
“In THIS life, you get away with all the good stuff and I can’t because I’m good. You get your rewards now and I don’t. You are going to be in for a very big surprise/very nasty shock when you die. Then I shall get mine [the good stuff, my reward at last], and you shall finally get yours! [It will be punishment - eternal punishment for the likes of you!] At long last, I will get mine and you will get yours! Bwaaahhaaahhaaaahahaha….”
How does anyone miss that Christians are hostile?
Your childhood experiences sound terrible. While I think you are wrong about everything you said, I think your childhood gives you an excuse for having a skewed view of child suffering.
ANON-
“Okay, I’mma put a stop to this right now:
The line “Spare the rod and spoil the child” does not appear anywhere in the Bible. It is a (somewhat paraphrased) line from a satirical poem written centuries later.
Instead, the Bible has this to say on spanking:
“Withhold not correction from a child: for if thou strike him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and deliver his soul from hell.”
STRIKE HIM WITH THE ROD!!! BEAT HIM!!! How is your point about sparing the rod valid here?
The point is that christianity advocates using a “rod” on children (violence).
So, what now? How does the bible say “do not abuse your children”.
Oh, wait, hmmm. It DOESN’T.
“Thinking back at the pain I went through, I can honestly say that I believe there were benefits.”
Glad your abuse benefitted you.
Mine was damaging and took a long time to get over. I used to get beat for stupid stuff… like hanging up a shirt wrong, or not washing a dish correctly, or hiding the few gifts I got from my grandmother (who I loved dearly) from my bratty half sister. And all while my dad and stepmom sang hallelulja on Sunday and justified their shitty parenting with the bible.
< italics /Okay, I’mma put a stop to this right now
Are you going to spank us? :)
Ted Haggard’s Soul mate!
Actually, much sicker:
Haggard at least was involved with consenting adults. And no cruelty.
I take it back. Haggard is far preferable to this sicko.
Oops, typo. I meant Stephen “Basically I Just Owned You” Webb. Whenever I see his name I automatically think of Stephen Weber the actor hiding in his mom’s basement and/or stalking the halls of deserted mountain hotels:
http://www.dvd.net.au/movies/t/08367-3.jpg
I was spanked as a child. Not particularly badly, but it was enough for me to decide that I am never, ever going to hit my own children.
It may not have done me any harm, but I am absolutely certain it didn’t do me any good, either.
Elliot, your reference to Stockholm syndrome is very insightful. It forms the basis of virtually all of their apologetics. It’s the logic of the abused child, “Daddy doesn’t really want to hurt me. I’m so bad that he has no choice. I make him do it.” How many times have we herd fundies say, “If you reject God, he’ll have to send you to hell. It will pain him to do it, but he’ll have no choice.” And it makes perfect sense to them when they say it. It’s the expression of countless generalizations of physical and mental abuse.
I was abused as a child, and I’m vehemently opposed to striking children, under any circumstances. I’m one of those liberal anti-spanking people your parents hated.
Says the guy with the claymore.
No, I me “we”.
Actions always speak louder than words to our children. I try every day to teach my children by example, not by doing as I say. Hypocrisy is never effective.
Well, I thought we agreed there’s a distinction between spanking for discipline and spanking out of anger. Do the proverbs imply one ought to discipline in anger? This doesn’t seem to follow from the fact they don’t explicitly forbid anger-driven discipline.
And like I said, I’ll have to do some more research on the instructions in Leviticus that you raised. I think an atheist makes a fair argument that a set of unjust laws could not have been issued by a just law-giver.
Good Point.
Of course it’s out of anger.
Why else would someone hit a kid?
A good way way to <i.tell them to be honest, while teaching them hypocrisy by the parents’ actions.
Yeah, I was too, pretty bad actually.
So, I’m not saying everyone who was smacked around is going to defend it — because you and I are obvious exceptions — but I think the generalization stands that if you were spanked as a child, you’re more likely to accept it as an appropriate disciplinary recourse.
NO
There is a wide chasm between respect and fear!
Like, they are two completely different processes!
The scariest spanking I ever got was from my mom. My dad had to ask her to stop. I can’t remember what I did to piss her off so badly.
For the record, she’s a wonderful and patient woman who raised four kids. She just “snapped” every ten years or so. And then she kicked ass and kicked it mightily.
Machiavelli said something to the effect of: if you want people to follow you, love only lasts a lifetime; fear lasts forever.
Not that I think your children should fear you. In fact, quite the opposite. Just thought I’d throw in a note about the relationship between fear and respect.
Machiavelli said that the ideal was that people both love and fear you, but if you can only manage one, go for fear.
How sick and twisted, to equate (or even sorta equate) respect with fear.
Ah, we need to go back to the ways of our forefathers and ancestors.
They worked the earth…
and had hard, agricultural lives, or sweat-shop lives full of long hard hours, child labor, deaths in infancy, deaths in childhood, deaths in childbirth, food full of rot and bugs, and few bleeding-heart liberal things like divorce. There were fewer meddlesome domestic-violence and abuse laws. Women knew their place and settled for what they had, by god, not gadding about searching for a better deal. Wife-beating and abuse were kept private as a family matter. Didn’t have all those heart-bleeders messing with the sanctity of the family.
Oh, for the good old days!
Daniel is not claiming that it is. He’s claiming that an influential preacher is telling people that God wants them to beat their children, whether the parents think it’s warranted or not.
Given the demographics, it’s a stone-cold certainty that the majority of child abusers in America are at least nominally Christian, just as the majority of child abusers in Saudi Arabia are Muslims. This does not tell us anything about what a majority of Christians or Muslims believe. However, when people use religion as an excuse to abuse, this is worth pointing out.
That depends on where you life. In a lot of Europe, all forms of physical discipline are legally considered to be child abuse. I have to say, I don’t hate that approach.
I disagree. I believe, statistically, that resorting to corporal discipline diminishes as one moves up the social ladder – with the exception of conservative Christians. They cling to it out of an obsession with control, because they were abused themselves, and as we discussed earlier, as a result of sadomasochistic tendencies.
yeah, Grace, except that the bible CONDONES, nay requires using a ROD to BEAT your child.
Well said! Atheists have no moral obligations that are prescribed to them on the basis of that lack of belief so it would be impossible to have an atheist justification for anything, let alone violence. As a matter of fact since the decision to become an atheist is based on the total lack of evidence for a divine being the only “tenet” of atheism would be to have a respect for critical evidence. Since there is plenty of evidence out there against spanking as a matter of course, I would say that atheists are intrinsically LESS likely to spank then Christians whose tome of moral instructions commands it.
Peace
Slight straw man there – Rob didn’t say that an atheist would have an atheism based justification for beating their children, just that there will be atheists who do consider it appropriate. And I place money on the fact that there are.
Honestly, for all Pipers posturing on how he’s acting out the will of God by smacking his kids about, I have a suspicion that a good chunk of it is post hoc justification of losing your temper with your children and lashing out at them.
I’d say being an atheist probably doesn’t make you less tempted to beat your kids, it just means you don’t have a “get out of conscience free” card for it.
On a side note, when I read it, I was surprised by how little the bible had to say about who will spend eternity burning in hell. Certainly in the Old Testament, the majority of punishments threatened were very clearly in this life (God will punish you and your children to the nth generation, for example, but no mention of whether this punishment extends to an afterlife). I may be wrong – many years since I read it – but I don’t think it’s stated that not taking the bible literally will get you sent to hell. These are teachings that have been elaborated on by the church over the years, but the bible is strangely quiet on them.
Although I detailed the simular verses in the bible that state the very same thing. “Spare the rod and spoil the child” was first written in a poem by Samuel Butler in 1664 and is not a biblical verse.
I only correct you because Christians will take any opportunity to do it first in an effort to discredit what you are saying.
Look at the book of proverbs for the biblical instructions to beat children.
See below: putting a stop to this illiteracy and misquoting right now.
Stop stuffing words in the bible’s mouth, er, pages!
It’s got enough crap in there without you making stuff up.
The duds, er, dudes that wrote it already made enough stuff up.
That’s the redemptive aspect of God that I do believe you have missed.
Yeah… we haven’t missed anything. You’re the one who’s missing the point.
And Piper is a waste of oxygen. The world would be vastly better off without him.
But God, he spanks the crap out of israel in the OT.
PML. This is too true.
But the also demonstrates the inherent problem with using the Bible to support child spanking. It is too easy to take it to actual abuse – as the Bible is rampant with spanking the crap of people.
<blockquote houch
kids need to be disciplined; spanking associates pain with a wrong action. Its psychology.
No, it’s not. It’s animal conditioning, using pain/punishment. Reward-punishment Pavlovian conditioning that uses the lowest, most ancient brain centers dealing with survival only. It treats people like animals that can’t learn except by pain/punishment. No doubt that is the sick view you actually do have of people.
I’d say that bypasses psychology (”psyche” = Greek root word “mind’ or spirit”).
If you don’t believe people, or children anyway, are capable of reasoning, or have any capacities beyond mere animal survival, then you’re treating them as if they (mere animals) don’t have any mind or spirit, and ‘psychology’ is irrelevant to you.
With enough punishment, the child comes to the conclusion: “What I am is not acceptable. I must conform to the expectations being demanded of me, or I will die.” Or at least: “I will suffer pain”.
Nice way to raise thoughtful, reasoning adults! – by treating them as if they have no capacity of thought or reason.
Don’t give birth to, and raise, some sick children being conditioned with that belief.
I call bullshit on the whole ASSumption that “we ’sinned’ in the first place”.
An unfounded belief.
Now go teach your kids from birth to be dishonest by your actions, then tell them with words that they need to be disciplined to learn to be honest.
(Or, to unlearn the dishonesty and hypocrisy your actions taught them!)
When you see your newborn baby, believe “this thing is born evil”, treat it according to that belief, and then tell them with words that they must learn to be “good”.
They will learn from you… that they are not born with innate ethics, that what they really are is unacceptable, and that they must conform or die.
(You’re a big person and they’re tiny; you are capable of killing them and they know it, long before language is learned.)
Spanking teaches a child, “OBEY ME!”
That is precisely the point. It’s all about control – as is their entire belief system.
You’re an idiot. And I didn’t need a god to tell me that, either.
Marcion-
Many criminals in prison are there BECAUSE THEY WERE ABUSED (BTW, read the research on abuse and brain damage to the frontal lobes and its affect on people who grow up to be criminals). So you want parents to spank/hit them MORE?
At what point should a parent quit using a “rod” on his/her child? Where does the bible say “do not abuse your child”? Where does the bible say “only hit your kid on the butt”?
It doesn’t!
You’re sick.
You have the belief that people are born evil.
That’s sick.
How much evil and crime is due to you, and people like you, looking at a newborn baby and thinking, “That thing is evil.”
Then you treat it based on that belief. You think it doesn’t get conditioned by your beliefs? That happens even when you’re not beating your beliefs into it!
The sickness starts there.
THEN you create a religion that is supposed to “cure” it.
Jeff…
What you’re describing and what you loathe (like us all) is a form of religious oppression which is controlling and manipulative. A rigourous attempt to assuage a seemingly angry God by adhering to endless, pointless rule-keeping dogma is a fruitless existance often resulting in harsh measures to “keep up appearances”.
The problem is that what we typically see in the so-called “christian” world is merely religion dressed up on the outside, external behavior modification techniques that mask remaining, inner character flaws, etc. This is akin to changing your socks but never washing your feet, it still stinks.
The true message & offer of Christ has nothing to do with these external dressings, but rather an internal change of nature, His within…us. Christ IN you is the mystery of the ages Col 1:27.
Christ has nothing to do with external religion, but rather true spirituality…the inner life. An entirely new nature. Unfortunately this “religious” stigma is attached to Jesus even though He was always at odds with the religious leaders of His day. They couldnt stand Him.
There is more than meets the eye when it comes to Jesus Christ. The question is…will we be content NOT to know the Truth. Or what will we be appeased by?? For me (I know, I know I’m a nutcase) but I was simply not content to know half-truth. I had an insatiable desire to know THE truth and it lead me to a deeper comprehension of the things of God. I have much to learn and am nobody special…but He really is.
Thats why I say things like…there is more, cuz there really is.
Take care,
JC
Trust me, I know. I was brainwashed by this stuff since I was a very small child.
It’s just so sad. I don’t want my child (or any child) to be a mindless drone – obeying simply because she was commanded. Spanking may work short-term, but wouldn’t you much rather have a child that can think for themselves – and think critically; able to make wise choices – once they reach adulthood? Unfortunately I know way too many people who can’t look at it that way… just beat your child into submission! It makes me sad.
The world would also be better off without sin.
Elliott–
Exactly!
Not I!!!!
Thanks-
I’ve seen the verses and I knew the word “rod” was in there in reference to hitting children.
“Many criminals in prison are there BECAUSE THEY WERE ABUSED”
Have you got in links to that as to my ignorant mind it seems very easy for the two to be associated in typical environments but without causality.
I’m not talking about abuse, just regular spanking. I can’t help it you don’t know the difference. And I would dare say that in the case of abuse, the parents are hitting (not just spanking) more out of anger and frustration from other concerns than for actual discipline.
Where does the bible say “only hit your kid on the butt”?
I’m not talking about the Bible. I don’t see this as a religious concept. That’s just common sense, which unfortunately many people lack (due, in my opinion, to drug and alcohol use). But look, let’s say some drunkard is tired of listening to his kid jabber on about Ninja Turtles so he punches him in the face. Well, that’s definitely abuse. But let’s say a loving parent tells their kid not to shave the next door neighbor’s dog, and they do it anyway, and then they spank them. The situation is totally different, the purpose is totally different, and the intensity is totally different. If we don’t teach our kids to respect other people’s stuff we will create a society of criminals. At the same time, however, if we go around knocking our kids around because we don’t want to talk to them or we’re just idiots who don’t know what to do with them, the result will also be a society of criminals.
I have seen parents spank a child that young, and they are certainly doing so based on the teaching of a christian group that advocates strong discipline from infancy to create obedience in children. I have seen parents use the trapezius hold on their children, or hold their children off the ground by one arm as a form of control. I have heard a preacher advocate beating children with a belt until they show complete surrender. “Broken” was the actual term he used, iirc.
Spanking is certainly not just a Christian issue, but I have never heard of this kind of behaviour actually promoted in any other setting.
Any dog trainer worth their salt will tell you NEVER to hit a dog to train it. It only makes them mean. I’d be snarling and baring my teeth too if I was his dog.
Yes – I should have said that as well.
Yeah – and we humans who were beaten and still have our minds left snarl and bare our teeth at it, too.
We certainly don’t go all Stockholm Syndrome and say, “But it’s good! That’s what it took to make me tun out alright, so I believe in it!”
Well – that has not been my experience. We disagree.
Fundamentalism, as a movement, may be only about a century old, but what today’s fundamentalists believe is what most Christians have believed for most of the past 2,000 years.
The question at hand has been, “Does the Bible support Piper’s position?” I think it does – one of the many reasons I reject it as a viable guide to living.
As far as the religious leaders of his day (I assume you mean the Pharisees) not being able to stand him – don’t trust the accuracy of the reporting. Everything stated about Jesus’ interactions with the Jewish authorities – especially the part about their involvement in his trial – is contrary to Jewish law. It just didn’t happen that way.
John, with all your rambling, this is one of the best things you’ve said.
I disagree with your possible assumption that the “inner character flaws” are humans born evil, needing a “christian cure”, and defining “character flaws” can be fuzzy thinking fill of assumptions.
I think we choose our beliefs and actions, and this includes the ones that go against whatever is actually real, and against well-being of life.
But anyone who doesn’t believe in character flaws, I would challenge to “look at yourself!”
And in the words of T. Lane Skelton, my wonderful sociology professor: “It’s one Band-aid after another.”
Without sin, or without the concept of sin?
Personally, I think the world would have been better off without flesh-eating bacteria…
The pastor in question makes the argument that “I don’t want to hurt you, but what choice do I have, when you don’t do what I tell you?”; this is exactly the tack that spouse-abusers take, so the comparison is valid. It’s not “he’s advocating treating your children like your wife”, but “he’s advocating treating your children the way wife-beaters treat their wives”. Do you really not see the difference?
I am glad that you recognise that a biblical view of marriage (in which the wife is required to submit to the husband, even if she’s being beaten) is “devolved”, though. That shows great progress for you.
I read your writing twice, and it still reads as aimless.
You never gave a straightforward, literate, reasoned, intelligible answer to any other posters who asked you questions.
You seem to find something wrong with deploring the beating of anyone, as Daniel does, and other posters do.
The best I can pick out of your aimless rambling, since you draw and then insult the comparison of wife to child, is that you do not deplore the beating of children.
Say something straightforward and reasoned, and then answer with reason – no more drive-by hostility shootings.
Instead of awaiting you answer, to be honest, I await your hostile, name-calling, point-free verbal attacks.
Here are some links:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16061571?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11732971?ordinalpos=2&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
On each of those pages are related articles if you want to read further.
:)
Also:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18678408?ordinalpos=9&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
And one more just for good measure:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15753199?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=2&log$=relatedreviews&logdbfrom=pubmed
another good one:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18514903?ordinalpos=3&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
How do I go further than just the abstract — I’ve tried various bits but can’t seem to get to the full paper?
Jeff, don’t'cha know? They troll because they love you. And want you to believe the shitloads of woo they inherited from their wacky sky-god religion. Why won’t you believe??*
*and by “believe,” we mean, “Surrender logic, common sense, and reason to fear, superstition, and outmoded ways of looking at the world/cosmos.”
Alex is out to prove a point but I’m not yet sure what it is and I don’t believe he knows what his point is either. So far my best guess is that he’s doing some sort of charity sponsorship to avoid any questions that are directed at him.
Jabster-
Look at the top right corner and see if it says something like “free article available at such and such website (where, if you click it, it will take you).
Otherwise, do you have access to a university library? If so, then you can use their online services to access these journals (which all require subscriptions as they are professional journals).
No luck there as university is but a distance memory for me! Why on why is it that governments can’t provide free access to this sort of information considering just how much of it is funded by tax payers in the first place.
Yes! That is a very good point!
Well, I hope you at least could get the idea from the abstracts.
The basic point is that abuse can cause both trauma to brains and even a change in neurotransmitter levels that affect people’s abilities concerning impulse control, empathy, etc. These people have behavior problems and some end up in jail.
Now, the guy in the video above says:
“Now, you don’t damage a child. You don’t give him a black eye or break his arm. Children have little fat bottoms so that they can be whopped.”
First of all, how hard is he going to whop his kid? Whopping a kid can be damaging, despite his command to not damage a child.
Secondly, not abusing a child is a humanist approach to child rearing, not a biblical one.
My argument is that the bible says to use a rod on your child to beat him.
But as we have seen, there is growing scientific literature on why this should not be done.
Just another reason to reject the bible.
As a slight aside I’m very much for far more openness for all medical studies not just those funded by the taxpayer — there is far to much ‘bad news’ that gets buried by pharma that the public have a right to know about.
… and thanks for the pointers when I get time I’ll try and look into it more but for now I’m going to try and finish off a book about critical appraisal in medicine.
Hmmm. I wonder if your city library pays for access to scientific journals?
If not, why not become a member of a library at a large city like NYC? Surely they have access to those journals, and all you’d need is an online password from them to access them.
Likewise, you might be able to pay for a membership to your alma mater’s library. Hence having university access as an alum.
It might be worth looking into! :)
While I am sure you would insist you are a logician of some sort, the skill at which you employ such is quite absent in your attempt to provide the equivocations and conclusions above.
You use the words “beaten” “beating” and “abuse” yet no where in the article do I find them. Hmmm…yes this might be a case of projecting onto the words of others the thoughts of the protester.
Man, you are spot on.
Speaks for me!
And people do have a choice, and they do make it, and denying that they made a choice doesn’t negate the fact that they made it.
If people have choice (right, free-will Christians?), then God has infinitely more choice.
A choiceless God is the most nonsensical concept of the month.
“I was abused as a child, and I’m vehemently opposed to striking children, under any circumstances. I’m one of those liberal anti-spanking people your parents hated.”
Me too.
We condition people as if they were animals.
I know they are animal life forms, but psychologically…
This Pavlovian reward/pain-punishment is animal-like conditioning.
I think it can’t do anything but imprint the belief that *you*, the mere child, have no higher brain functions or ability to reason. You are a mere animal, to be beaten into submission to me.
The “wise choices” you speak of come from the higher brain centers and cortex, while the animal conditioning simply beats obedience born of fear into the ancient stimulus-response/survival brain.
A child learns: “I must conform to this demand or I will die.” Or, at the very least, “I will suffer pain.”
Nice way to form fully functional adults!
How’re you gonna treat your kids?
Look at a newborn baby and think, “That thing is born evil”?
I’m sure he did – he was human!
If he masturbated and had sex, that would mean he was truly human.
Blasphemy! Next you’ll be wondering whether Jesus went to the bathroom!
He did nothing but hate-filled name-calling, reason-free verbal attacks on any poster challenging him in an earlier forum.
It’s a nearly psychotic, flaming hate.
Watch for his coming vicious verbal attacks.
If he is trying to convert people to Christianity – Christian love! – his hate is going to do wonders repulsing them.
If he masturbated and had sex, that would mean he was truly human.
Either that, or sex is so awesome that even gods can’t resist.
Yawn…the typical lefty tactic, demonize a philosophical opponent because you are out of ammunition.
Alex – why are you here?
Good morning, Mr. Hater. We get the message that you are opposed but we haven’t seen any philosophy yet.
And Alex should know — he’s an expert at demonizing his opponents!
See?
Yeah, nothing like Alex’s thoughtful, considerate, reasoned replies.
What philosophical opponent? Philosophy implies knowledge/logic, of which you have none.
No, you have incoherent, dogmatic bullshit.
Nothing philosophical about it.
No, I’m no logician, just a regular human being. However, I’m pretty sure that merely claiming that my logic is lacking is insufficient as a rebuttal. Can you point out any actual logical flaws?
Yes, you’re right. I refer to the same concepts with different words which carry different connotations. Should we always let the first person to speak define the terms that will be used? If someone speaks of “surprise sex” should I refrain from using the term “rape” in my reply?
Besides, I never actually used those terms when speaking about hitting children (which is the context in question), only about people hitting their spouses. Are you claiming that this doesn’t constitute abuse?
When you say I “attempt to provide the equivocations and conclusions above”, do you mean that I fail to so so? If I haven’t provided them, how do you know what you’re arguing against? The only problem you actually identify is that I use different words (when referring to a different topic) in my response; is that sufficient for you to decide I’ve not said anything of note?
See? It begins!
Alex-
How old are you? You seem to have the mental maturity of a teenager. You are awfully sure of yourself but have no real knowledge, evidence, or logic to back up what you say. That just screams teenager to me.
You refuse to acknowledge that you have only SPECULATION on your side while we continually provide evidence for our claims. We discuss, in detail, why we think what we think. You, on the other hand, just blather.
If you want to be taken seriously, then stop your dogmatic rants and start engaging the criticisms put to you.
Other wise, shut the hell up. We are tired of your clanging.
I’m here to talk to other atheists and people who are opposed to the attempts of conservative evangelicals to commandeer this society.
You obviously disapprove of this blog. You don’t like its host; you have contempt for everyone here and for every aspect of their belief system. I assume you’re a Christian; in any case, you aren’t converting anyone here to your way of thinking. All you’re doing is inspiring vitriol. Yet you remain.
I read a number of atheist blogs. On every one, there is at least one guy in residence who disapproves of the blog’s premise, disagrees with everything that is said and despises everyone there. From time to time, I ask one of these guys why he remains. I rarely get an answer.
So, I’ll ask you again – why are you here?
Imagine that you’re living in Jesus’ time. You’re curious what he’s like, so you join the crowd gathering where he’s meeting with the people.
At some point, he says, “Excuse me a minute. I’ll be right back.” He goes behind a rock, lifts his robe, and takes a healthy. Uses whatever they had back then, leaves, whatever, I don’t know if they had enough water to wash with, as they do now in some countries.
Then ho goes back to the people, and picks up where he left off.
How do you feel about the man, knowing he’s as human as you are?
Of course Jesus took a shit! He was human!
claidheamh mor
He [alex],,, hate-filled name-calling… a nearly psychotic…Watch for his coming vicious verbal attacks.
See? It begins!
______________________
Yes it does indeed begin. And your groups begins by calling me “hate-filled”, “psychotic” and verbally vicious…
Amusing that your mirrors are as broken as they are while you attempt to fix the mental acne that scars your every thought.
I think AnonyMouse is as sicko as you do.
I had the same kind of treatment, and it was at least as damaging.
Anony and the other “I got beaten and benefited” ones are sick.
I had to repress a puke at that.
You’ve said nothing specific, nothing useful, and have not answered the questions put to you at all.
You have done name-calling, verbal attacks, and have been vicious. All of your replies have been ‘drive-by” type verbal attacks that ignore the specific questions put to you, do not contain any factual content, but do contain sarcasm and attacks.
You contribute nothing – zero – useful to these forums.
The sarcasm about “I feel the call… the love… alex’s hateful spews are converting me… I think I’m turning Christian”, was to make the point that you are full of hostility and are repulsing people, but you ignore looking at yourself and do nothing but attack others.
You are full of hatred.
Unfortunately, the lowlife was using anecdote, not just telling others what to do. I’m really glad I was not one of his children, and that I was too old to be spanked by the time my family got involved with this guy’s group.
“If we don’t teach our kids to respect other people’s stuff we will create a society of criminals. At the same time, however, if we go around knocking our kids around because we don’t want to talk to them or we’re just idiots who don’t know what to do with them, the result will also be a society of criminals.”
So at what point do we not have a society of criminals?
Marcion- you seem to have some kind of christian bent. That means you have to answer to the bible at some point. It says to beat your kids with a rod.
Everything we know about child psychology says that spanking doesn’t actually teach children anything. Well, other than that it’s OK to hit people for not doing what you want. Children who are disciplined with loss of privileges and positive reinforcement turn out to be more respectful and better behaved than those who are hit.
America is amongst the most accepting of physical punishment for children, and also has a higher proportion of its population in prison than any other country in the world. Obviously, spanking is not entirely responsible for this, but it seems odd to suggest that spanking helps prevent a “society of criminals”. Especially when compared to somewhere like Sweden where any form of spanking is illegal and classified as child abuse. Compared to America, Sweden has almost no crime, without any spanking of children.
Please do not double post. It makes the comment area more confusing than it already is. Thanks! :)
had there not been sin, there wouldn’t be flesh eating bacteria.
Sorry-
Sin has NOTHING to do with bacteria. Bacteria is part or nature which is opportunistic (we eat other organisms don’t we? why be surprised that other organisms eat us?) Sin is supposed to be about not following god’s will. What has bacteria (or other natural disasters) got to do with that?
So according to Christina, the presence of flesh eating bacteria is CAUSED by sin.
Ummmm, EVIDENCE please????
No, you’ve got none. you lose. buzzzzt! You’re out.
We should put that on a bumper sticker:
Had there been no sin, there wouldn’t be flesh-eating bacteria.
I’m sure we could market it to fundies.
If God is love, then why the existence of hell? No, NONE of us is on the wrong path ultimately. We may disagree, but ALL of our paths are valid in terms of ultimate reality (if such a thing exists). Now in terms of society, certainly I have problems with our differences, but I live by a standard that we are responsible to each other. Hence the reason that I even bother to argue with other people.
John C, my friend, is this lack of love accusation based on my defense of spanking? You’re a supposedly orthodox Christian right? So you’ve read Hebrews 12:6, right? “For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.” If you’re against spanking, perhaps its time for the Lord to spank you, because “if ye be without chastisement,…then are ye bastards, and not sons.” (Heb 12:8) But if you’re not referring to my defense of spanking but to my use of the term “giblet-head” I was just being comical. Giblet-head is a funny word. I was called all sorts of names for merely saying that extreme cases of disrespect for personal property deserve a spanking, so why shouldn’t I level these same sorts of terms back at the “generation of vipers” (Jesus’ phrase) who are in favor of raising up rapists and thieves who are never disciplined in any way? You need to check yourself John.
“I’m not judging you; I just think that you’re wrong, and that I’m a more loving and compassionate (and therefore better) person than you”.
Do you even know what the verb “to judge” means?
This realization is one of the major reasons why I left. When I was taking psychology classes for my degree, I realized that God’s understanding of human psychology would have to be pretty pathetic based on what the Bible teaches, and if God was really omniscient, he would know better.
If the only form of attention they can reliable induce from a parent is a spanking, it amounts to the same thing.
So, you believe that God must make the same moral judgements as you do? If it could be demonstrated without the possibility of error that God did forgive repentant sinners, how would that affect your faith?
Marcion-
What you don’t realize is that rapists and child-molesters already HAVE been punished.
How do you think they got that way?
Do you think a child molester just woke up one day and said, gee, I think I’ll molest me some little boys today? NO! They were molested as children! Their sexual boundaries were SO violated that they became broken, sick people.
Does this excuse their behavior? In terms of society, absolutely not! They need to be locked up so that they cannot spread their sickness to others.
But do you really think that a loving God can’t see what this suffering has done to these people? (Let’s not even get started on the problem of evil/freewill thing here).
Child molesters and rapists didn’t become what they are because they weren’t spanked.
Your justification of spanking fails on this level.
ps. You said “Spanking and hitting are not the same. ”
Spanking IS hitting. It is hitting on the lower back, buttocks, and/or upper legs.
BTW Getting hit on your butt hurts as much as getting hit on the face. I know because my abuser hit me in those places and many others.
You need to undergo a grace awakening Marcion. Vengence is the Lords.
The only law is the law of love.
Do you believe in a vengeful god, John? How does vengeance fit in with perfect love?
I’ll just point out that vengeance and justice are not the same thing, first.
Another point. A child who is cruel to animals HAS PROBABLY ALREADY BEEN ABUSED HIMSELF. Children who are treated gently and rationally (with non-violent natural consequences for poor behaviour) simply DO NOT become violent. They learn empathy. We are not that different from animals. I have two cats who are treated with gentleness and lots of love. They too are gentle. It would be out of character for one of them to scratch or bite. This is how children are (a little more complicated, but the idea is the same). Any child who is extremely “bad” has already had traumatic experiences and clearly needs therapy.
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