Glad I didn’t work with this wacko, because I might be dead. A gunman came to work with a semiautomatic handgun to kill co-workers who were not Christians:
A 24-year-old ski lift operator who fatally shot the general manager of the Eldora ski area was determined to kill co-workers who weren’t Christian, according to court records obtained Thursday.
The documents, filed Wednesday in Boulder District Court, said witnesses told authorities that Derik Bonestroo walked into a building at work, fired a gun into the ceiling and said: “If you’re not Christian, you’re going to die.”
General manager Brian Mahon was shot and killed Dec. 30 at the ski area west of Nederland, Colo., in Boulder County.
Witnesses said when Bonestroo asked Mahon’s religion, Mahon said “Catholic” and Bonestroo shot him twice: in the chest and head.
If I were there, I would have said I was a Christian. I have no problem lying to a madman to save my life. If he didn’t believe me, I’d have asked Jesus into my heart right there to prove it. And then if I had a chance, I would have tried to get his gun and shoot him before he hurt anyone else. Psychopath.
Of course, he’s not a real Christian. Just a poser. He didn’t really believe. Thought I’d anticipate that comment in advance.
It’s not like God would ever want someone to do that. I mean, he didn’t ask Abraham to wrap up and kill his only son, did he? He never told his chosen people to massacre another nation and slaughter all their women, children and animals, right? God is love and would never ask a human being to hurt another!
(via)
1minion: That was going to be my question, Jerdog. Do some good with all that “evil” stuff for a... 
Phil E. Drifter: Schools teach conformity. They teach you to sit down and shut up and be quiet and be... 
Nelly: ditto 
Anthony D Jacques: I love how God saying “Thou Shalt Not Kill” comes off so Do as I say, not as I do. Christians are... 
Leah: These people came to my school and protested…. I can’t help wondering if maybe they are just a... 
gmcfly: Someone needs to read Romans 13. 
230 Comments
God made sure HIS only son died… Yeah, sure, he came back for a few days, but still…
>Of course, he’s not a real Christian. Just a poser. He didn’t really believe. Thought I’d anticipate that comment in advance.<
Oh, he believed, he just didn’t understand. Then again, the thou shalt not kill rule does appear rather flexible in the bible. In the not too distant past non-Christians would have been burned or stoned.
Here is a story that talks about God’s work as well. Only this guy was actually CHANNELING the Lord through his hands. It’s quite exciting to know God has the time to do these things in amongst all the paperwork and such.
http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_32612.aspx
This is simply a more extreme example of how much hatred many Christians have.
It’s just a more extreme example of the hatred that expresses in pushing for laws that force everyone to live by their Christian beliefs (forced prayer in schools, forced births by banned abortion, banned gay marriages, etc.); name-calling, verbal attacks both overt and covertly disguised with “excuse me”, “I’m sorry”, and questions; their contempt for anyone who does not buy their beliefs and therefore must be hopelessly stupid; and the vitriol and invective that spews out in posts written by Christians on this site. (And anywhere else.)
It’s just a little more obvious when it finally expresses as murder.
And yet, my Christian friends don’t understand why I fear Christianity…
Crazy! I used to live in Boulder, and I’ve been to Eldora!
So strange. What could have been going through his mind that drove him to prepare and carry out this act? I wonder why he thought he should take it upon himself to cast judgment, rather than let it happen when we die (what supposedly happens).
I have a question about this. If, hypothetically, I read a news story about a person who went nuts and killed a bunch of people for being religious, and said that anyone who wasn’t an atheist deserved to die… would I be justified in fearing atheism?
““If you’re not Christian, you’re going to die.”
“Witnesses said when Bonestroo asked Mahon’s religion, Mahon said “Catholic” and Bonestroo shot him twice: in the chest and head.”
Uhh did I miss something because are Catholics are Christians correct?
Not according to evangelical christians. When I was a kid, my sunday school class was supposed to go on a visit to a catholic church. The parents were horrified, and the trip was cancelled. Even other denominations of evangelical churches are all going to hell, because their doctrine is “wrong”. You have to be very lucky to be the one evangelical church that actually has correct doctrine, because these are the only people going to heaven. Amazing, isn’t it? All that sniping over whose interpretations of a 2000 book written by ignorant men is correct?
As a Reverend, I say anyone whether a Jew for Jesus or a Catholic, who follow Jesus Christ is indeed Christian.
wow maybe I should read my comments before I post them.
I think it’s very clear that this rampage is due to a dangerous combination of scripture and psychoactive substances.
As evidence, I submit that Derik Bonestroo anagrams to “book ired stoner.”
Whoa! Very John C-esque! :)
VidLord, Daniel has detailed his study of the Bible a number of times. It obviously hasn’t impressed him much…
God is NOT within me… and I’m going to be just fine without him, thank you.
Let’s keep being afraid…
In Canada:
http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Local/2009/03/06/8650181-sun.html
In Brazil:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29531755/
….”The sexual touching began when she was 12 or 13. Then he used sex toys on her and eventually, six months later, had sexual intercourse. She was sexually naive, having been raised as a fundamental Christian….”
… “her younger brother was routinely forced into sex acts by the stepfather and he had sex with his fundamentalist Christian mother who belonged to the swinger subculture that swaps sex partners…. ”
I guess these are just samples of rotten apples?, what do you think Telepromter?
I think we should speak up and stop pretending that because of these sick people we can’t judge the whole religion organization.
Teleprompter, I agree with you, those hideous were not done *because* they were christians. Christianity didn’t push them to do it, but neither try to avoid it.
It makes me really sick when these people preach “jesus loves you” and “god is love” and they can at the same time make such a horrible acts.
Not only they brainwashed their kids as “fundies” but also messed up their heads. I wonder how many times those parents talked about god with their neighbours. I wonder if those sick parents went to the same church were I used to go…
The point of something like this is that being a Christian says nothing about whether a person is capable of murder which is widely regarded as one of the worst crimes a human being can commit. It in fact can give actual justification to the murderer because they believe their crime to be for a righteous cause.
Being an atheist has nothing to do with whether a person will commit an evil act either. But it also does not promise reward for such a thing.
Christianity gets touted as inspiring true peace, happiness, and morality in people and that’s certainly not universally true. Even if some people do find happiness in it, there are plenty of perfectly happy atheists. What use is religion in this context then? If anything it only ever gets twisted into justifying murder. An athiest murderer cannot make the same excuse, such a person would be just plain bad or mentally ill.
Hello, Daniel,
Here in Brazil, we are horrified because of this: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,505183,00.html
Notice that the raper has NOT been excommunicated.
I take it you guys aren’t familier with the “left behinf” game where you kill people you aren’t able to convert.
@ demar
Besides Columbine, here’s another incident that you think might have happened somewhere in the past.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=bb4_1194559199
I didn’t know about this until not too many years ago.
Mormon-led Massacre
Hypothetically speaking, for the Christians…
If this man did this because he was mentally ill, could he have still been a “true” Christian? Because if he really did believe, he would be saved by faith, no matter how many people he killed.
But if he was a Christian and full of the grace of God, wouldn’t he NOT kill, as good works are evidence of salvation? Is mental illness stronger than grace?
And if he was mentally ill and not able to understand or live in reality, and he was not a Christian, is he in hell right now? Are the truly mentally disabled held accountable for accepting Jesus as their personal Lord and savior?
If God damns a mentally ill person who has little control over himself, is that just? Or if God pardons mentally ill people, isn’t it good to be born with a servere mental disorder, to be sure to avoid hell?
Or maybe it was a demonic possesion. I have questions about that too but they can wait.
The most salient aspect of religious fervency is narrow-mindedness, i.e., A person’s inability to tolerate any religious view other than his or her own. This simple fact is well understood by religious leaders and very easily exploited. First they use rhetoric to whip their followers into a religious frenzy; then they foment hatred and violence against those who do not share their creed. Derik Bonestroo and others fanatics like him emerge as the fruits of their efforts.
When things like this happen, religious moderates are quick to decry such atrocities and admonish us not to associate them in any way with people like Bonestroo. Yet, as members of the 85% of Americans who call themselves Christians, they tacitly endorse the blank checks on hatred and violence that their leaders are handing out to the fanatics.
When moderate Christians bite into the cherries they’ve picked from the Bible, they should be mindful of the pits within.
If a mentally unstable atheist walked into a room and said, “Every believer in here is going to die,” and he had been listening to some atheist speaker (about the problems of religion and how the world would be better without it) until he decided to do this, would you blame other atheists for saying, “Yes, the world would be better without religion?”
It’s the same relationship. As far as I know, no atheist supports a holocaust of believers. For my part, if self-declared Christians tried to run a holocaust against nonbelievers, I would be willing to die opposing it… in the name of Christ. I say that because I know that that is what God wants us to be doing, loving and helping others. Biblically, we are called to oppose these things (for example, see Isaiah 58*) – the oppression of other people – not create it. Biblically, that’s exactly what God did by sending Jesus – to love and help others – even to the point of dying for it.
And Christian means “little Christ.” Its aim is to make little Christs. But even Jonah the prophet didn’t know the heart of God… he was the one who wanted God to kill the city of Ninevah for being wicked, sick, twisted (everyone is, and everyone isn’t); but God said, “Nah, I’d like you to preach to them instead.” To love them. To help them.
Jonah sure believed in God, but he didn’t get what God was all about. On the whole, I think the Jonahs produced by Christianity receive a lot more attention than do the little-Christs.
I ramble so much…. I apologize for my not-brevity. Farewell.
*Isaiah 58 has a lot to say about hypocrisy in religion, actually. It’s directed toward people who claim to believe in God but don’t do the work of his hands. Which is significant because it shows that biblically, God sees religious hypocrites as a problem, too. I think Jesus had a lot in common with atheists. After all, the religious hypocrites (Pharisees) were the only people he ever got angry with. (I’d say he was a closet atheist that oddly took delight in bringing masses of people to God, but I don’t think that he would have died for his own claims if he didn’t believe himself. Or at least I wouldn’t. I think.) Er… I’m rambling again. Bye!
I’d lie about being a Christian too. Then, when I get the chance, I’d take out my concealed carry weapon and end the situation.
Daniel: “He never told his chosen people to massacre another nation and slaughter all their women, children and animals, right? God is love and would never ask a human being to hurt another!”
You’re obviously interpreting the bible literally. When God said this it was about the INTERNAL struggle within, the battle between good and evil – it had nothing to do with the literal depictions written down. If you interpret the bible literally you’re obviously foolish and immature. You must study it over the course of many years to grasp what is implied. God is within you – all he asks is that you accept him! God IS love!!!
@VidLord: To interpret the Bible literally is neither stupid nor immature. Keep in mind that we live in a society where virtually everything is said to be interpreted literally. The Hebrews didn’t; they often used metaphors.
In many places, the Bible was not written to be taken literally, yes.
Unfortunately, to call names only proves the point being made on this blog. The point is, religion drives people to anger and hateful acts. As a Christian, when you get mad and start using your tongue as a sword* in the Great Religion Debate, you become a hypocrite. After all, you believe that God is love, God wants us to be like Him, and therefore our faith should make us want to be more like love. Atheists, on the other hand, don’t endorse this conviction of self-transformation, so they get off easy. They’re just mad at a bunch of hypocrites for being hypocrites.
If you don’t get mad, you don’t become a hypocrite, and therefore you no longer justify their anger through your actions. If you want to really live your life for the God of Love, you have to be above reproach.
I know, it’s not fair. But it’s still true.
***God Bless y’all***
*That’s a metaphor… please don’t take it literally.
Holy Sh@@! I knew about this shooting (as I live near Boulder), but I didn’t know the gunman was a christian zealot. Not good. I’m actually going skiing THERE next weekend, so please pray for me, I mean, wish me luck…….
Hee hee…. I’ll pray for you.
Not worth quite as much as taking a bullet for you, though. But hey… I do what I can.
***God Bless y’all***
You are really twisted in your viewpoint.
Have you forgotten the Columbine massacre where only Christians were killed?
Do you know about the millions of Christians who have died for their faith over the centuries?
Do you know about the Christians who are currently being tortured and killed for their faith today?
Physically, you are here, but you have already died.
Do you know about the millions of christians who have killed for their faith? Far more people have been murdered by christians than the other way around. This idea of christians being persecuted is propoganda.
I would contest that statement…
Remember that the early church was slaughtered for no reason other than their faith.
Christian persecution means China and the Middle East. It’s a myth in the United States. All we suffer is the animosity of people who are biased against Christians as a group. (I, personally, view this as a stereotype – correct me if I’m wrong.) Christians, too, are people, though, and we are just as guilty of said animosity as anyone else.
Ironically, I believe that the ugliness of religious intolerance is all rooted in sin – the very problem Christianity seeks to solve. (Personal definition of sin: self-centeredness at the expense of other people)
Christians are people, too, though. I wouldn’t need the Christ if I didn’t love sin. To me, Christianity is the rejection of that love of self in an attempt to love something better. Like other people. (Matthew 22:36-40: The greatest commandment is to love God and to love others.) So to me, people who hate others because of their religion have missed the point. Furthermore, if they think that it’s what God wants, then they don’t know God! (Have I said “correct me if I’m wrong” yet? That goes for here, too. Anywhere, in fact.)
I would ask those millions of Christians you mentioned who have killed for their faith, “Where, in the New Testament, does God say to murder for your faith?”
As far as I know, it doesn’t. (Again, correct me if I’m wrong.)
——–
PS. Yo, Mr. Moderator man. (Or woman… whatever you are.) The chances that you’ll read this are slim. But I just noticed this here comment policy, which happens to BEGIN with the words “No evangelizing.” … ! So I cut off on the “God Bless y’all”s at the end of the posts; I know that it’s not evangelizing, but I figure it might annoy people, so enough said. Yeah… please don’t delete me.
Glad I found another skeptic. Religion. the three siblings of Abraham in particular, have morphed into a cavalcade of political power monsters and deadly control freaks.
Christianity is finally shown in the light of day, no longer is it fashionable to cover up the horrors they perpetrate.
Islam never bothered to cover its deadly problems. Judaism has always advertised it’s passion for ‘laws’ and justice … but never bothered to apply those same laws to itself, especially under the excuse of being threatened.
Religion in general has lost my respect. I do, however, respect individuals of faith who wander blindly, believing in the peaceful side of their faiths.
Horrific acts of violence must be recognized for what they are … the conflict inside people about the contradictions their religions demonstrate. Religions love to use the word zealot to distance themselves from their radicals.
I welcome you to my blogroll at TruthHugger.
Daniel: I just came across this story and just wanted to share my comment and story with you.
First, I am a Christian, did the bibe school thing, all the things you say you have done. I really don’t like to use the term Christian, cause what the title brings with, just as you have written in your story. Crazy People!! Just as you are an athiest, I am a believer. I too struggle sometimes with everything. Why would God do this, why does God allow all the bad things to happen? Where is God, God is nowwhere! Does God exist or not?
I have a 6 year old son. I would do anything for him. He is very special to me. I love him very much. I’m sure you have someone you love very much and would do anything for.
My son who is a part of me, sometimes does bad things. He disobeys, throws fits when he doesn’t get his way, gets mad when I don’t get him a toy the store. The typical kid stuff. I have to punish him sometimes. I take away his toys, make him go to his room and yes I have taken a paddle to him. I have made him cry! On those days when he is at his worst and I have to punish him, at the end of the day when I am putting him to bed, I look at him and he looks at me. We talk, and he doesn’t ask me why I spanked him or why I made him cry. I don’t ask him why he was bad. He looks at me and say’s “Daddy I love you” and I reply “Son, I love you too.” Unconditional love!
No matter how much we question God about what he has done or hasn’t done. No matter what we say, No matter what we do, He is still looking at us and saying “I love you”.
To those who say they don’t believe in God, I would say it doesn’t matter, God believes in you.
BB
“Have you forgotten the Columbine massacre where only Christians were killed?”
As wintermute and others pointed out, the Cassie Bernall story is mostly false. Also, “only” Christians were killed? I find that hard to believe, and would very much like to see you prove it.
“Do you know about the millions of Christians who have died for their faith over the centuries?”
Do you know about the millions of innocent people whose murders were motivated by Christianity? These people, the victims of witch burning, the Crusades…
“Do you know about the Christians who are currently being tortured and killed for their faith today?”
Do you know about the millions of other people being tortured and killed for myriad reasons today? While it’s sad that anyone is tortured or killed for any reason, it’s not really a valid argument against pointing out the crazy ones who are doing the torturing and killing, now is it?
That is incorrect. The Ten Commandments tell us how to act towards God and towards others. An individual has no right to kill another individual except in one scenario, the death penalty. The difference is that it is not one individual pronouncing judgement on another, but rather a judge appointed has, on the basis of the laws of the land, ruled that death is the appropriate penalty.
“1. It looks like the magnetic properties of the North Pole are being disrupted. Possibly, this would be necessary to guide a missile to its target over the Pole, so that it would accurately reach its intended target.
2. the USA is within easy range of the latest Russian missiles.”
So then do you want to actually put forward any evidence for the first point?
“Physically, you are here, but you have already died.”
That statement is such sanctimonious crap! Your condescending attitude won’t score any points here.
DL, in your example of 2 Kings 10, according to all of Hebrew law those Baal priests deserved death. They directly led the Jewish people astray from the Lord, and as king, it was Jehu’s duty to fulfill the law.
If someone broke a law that our nation deemed worthy of the death penalty, wouldn’t you expect our government to follow through with retribution?
BB,
I am sorry, but the comparation does not make sense.
I love my children as well and I know the love me, and I know the exist. We talk, we laugh, we go to the park, we read books, we eat together. They listen to me, I listen to them. We hear each others voice.
No matter what they do, I will never curse them forever (neither theis kids, or their kids’ kids), or kick them out of my house (eden).
I will never ask them to put a knife in anothers chest to prove they love me (Abraham). And I will never kill our dog (jesus) to forgive them for something they didn’ do. I will never bet love with them (job)
I could go on and on with samples…
Hey, and when my kids ask me for money I hand them a tooney.
That is real love.
And yet after reading about this shooting, some people will still think atheists are morally inferior to Christians. When’s the last time an atheist went on a shooting spree? When’s the last time an atheist blew up a church? Or flew a plane into a building?
Many would say that Atheism has led to the millions of babies being killed via abortion, and the assisted suicide killings of the elderly.
Atheism FTW!!!!
Both of your examples are pre-Christian old testament (Hebrew Bible) examples, not Christian examples. I am unaware of any specifically Christian teaching (i.e., after Christ actually showed up) authorizing murder, political killings, or familial killings.
You may recall that God didn’t actually allow Abraham to kill his son. God’s blessing of the Israelites’ military conquests is a deeper theological issue, and certainly cannot be compared with the psycho you described.
The reason you anticipated the argument that he wasn’t a true Christian is because you know he is acting inconsistently with Christian doctrine. Christian doctrine (as stated in the New Testament) authorizes the believer to seek voluntary conversion of others through persuasion, voluntary suffering of persecution (allowing oneself to be imprisoned), and loving service of both Christians and non-Christians.
You may also recall Peter attempting to take the sword to the Roman guard who came to get Jesus for crucifixion, and after Peter cut off his ear, Jesus miraculously put the ear back on and rebuked his own follower rather than the non-Christian. That is Christian doctrine.
It is also Christian doctrine that Armageddon is coming…
Interesting post.
Even more puzzling to me is all the debate that this has started in the comments section. It tickles me. Very much indeed.
I don’t believe this story about some psycho killing a co-worker has anything to do with the Bible. Someone who is obviously mentally unstable associating themselves with religion or belief does not make a realistic statement about that group. Saying that all Christians are murderous because one man says he is going to kill everybody but Christians, is like saying that all Muslims are killers because some extreme faction of Muslims try to kill all non-Muslims. It’s a unfounded generalization.
jtornado – “All of those men you mentioned above did things which they had been very clearly told not to do.”
they offered unauthorized fire before the LORD.
You don’t find that the least bit odd that God would instantly kill two people for this? You don’t question the validity of this story in the slightest?
You don’t think that two Priests – who had spoken to God, the creator of the universe, and were instructed to burn something in a certain fashion, would deliberately disobey him and burn it in a different way? Why would they do that? If they were Priests certainly they would have nothing to gain by deliberately disobeying God right? Especially after he told them how to do it.
Attack the story with logic. It’s just anther example of absurd desert scribbling.
The bottom line of an argument about religion is that if people do not begin to value life on the earth then it leaves room for people with radical ideas to infect the world with them. If someone is willing to belief in ONE certain thing whether it is a religion, higher power or a paradise after life then there WILL ALWAYS BE RADICALS. EVERYONE should doubt, no matter what you’ve been taught, no matter how much a belief in a higher power helps you get through the day, no matter how much it may cause a rift in ones own family. If we ever accept ANYTHING as a singular truth we are resisting progress. Whether you have a PHD in Biology or are a lifelong Christian, you should doubt. The reason why doubting is so important is because if someone does not believe they know something 100% it will immensely reduce the chances of a person being radical for a certain cause. So if you are a moderately religious person, take a second to look at the bigger picture and you may just see that by believing in a certain religion, you are, in fact, the base of the pyramid. /\ If the moderates who make up the base begin to doubt their belief, the radicals, who are the tip, will be forced to collapse. Maybe then will we be able to truly value human life on earth.
So, schizophrenia is NOT the degradation of the ventral tegmental area of the brain?
Wow, I had better call the neurologists about that!!!
Actually, I think chalking it up to demon possesion is writing it off- very irresponsible. Fortunately, their are many doctors and medical researchers working every day to try to help people with mental illness. Its hard work but they do it.
It’s lucky that demons can be driven out with anti-psychotic drugs, then.
There is no way of determining whether a person is a “real” Christian or not. just as there is no way of determining which religions are “true” and which ones are “false.”
Some Protestants, for example, insist that Catholics are not real Christians. Many “mainline” Christians insist that Mormons are not Christians and that their religion, like Christian Science, is just a cult.
Christianity, shortly after it was founded, was considered a cult. The difference between cults and mainline religions is that the latter somehow managed to survive long enough to be considered “respectable.”
The bottom line is that a “cult” is a recent religion that you don’t like and a “real” Christian is one that you like and that a “false” one is a Christian that you do not like.
Harleigh Kyson Jr.
“I am unaware of any specifically Christian teaching (i.e., after Christ actually showed up) authorizing murder, political killings, or familial killings.”
Well, there’s always Anani’as and Sapphi’ra, who were killed by God – or by Peter invoking the power of God – for daring to keep some of their own money from the early Christian community. [Act 5:1-11, and remember that little lesson next time you're tempted to complain about income tax.]
“God’s blessing of the Israelites’ military conquests is a deeper theological issue, and certainly cannot be compared with the psycho you described.”
You’re right. Joshua and the Israelites killed more people by several orders of magnitude, so clearly it’s a different matter. “One death is a tragedy …” and all that.
Catholics are Christians. Christians are the people who follow Christ’s teachings and try to be Christ like. Of course, we will never be perfect……..but one should try.
Some people don’t get happy when they drink….they may fall asleep or get the urge to fight.
I think this man was unstable…and if he had not used that way of thinking …he would have still done this for some other reason.
I know my comments are disjointed but I was reading the entire thread.
“poof”. Hilarious.
I am so creating my avatar. I am Brian the atheist…
I’d be praising Jesus and hail Marying like there was no tomorrow!
Funny world sometimes
We’re all gonna die. Question is, what do you believe will happen afterwards?
No true Christian would go around shooting people for no good reason (unbelief certainly falls in that category!!)
Atheists and Agnostics do not deserve to die. They deserve to be treated like the human beings they are.
Wow I had no idea god was still striking people dead in the new testament. Interesting read:
http://www.westpalmbeachchurchofchrist.com/articles/acts/acts_5-1-11.html
Have you ever considered the sins that these people died for? Would you not expect that the sins committed where God struck that person dead were grievous, major sins? Yet that is not the case at all.
What did Nadab and Abihu do wrong? They used the wrong kind of fire. That does not seem like a big deal to us. In fact, we would surely call it a trivial offense. What did Korah do wrong? He wanted to be in charge and thought Moses should not rule over them. We have that all the time, do we not? What did Uzzah do wrong? He tried to prevent the ark of the covenant from falling. Uzzah even had good intentions and was struck dead. What did Ananias and Sapphira do wrong? They lied about the price which they sold their land.
Do any of these sins seem monumental in your mind? Did you notice that none of them were murderers or adulterers or thieves? These are sins that we could rationalize in our minds. In fact, some of these we may not have considered sins at all. What is the big deal to use a different fire? Shouldn’t Uzzah be allowed to touch the ark of God since it was falling? Korah was simply crying for balanced leadership and the power not reside in only one person. We can rationalize their actions easily and yet God killed all of them.
vorjack,
If you read the story about Anani’as and Sapphi’ra, it is very clear that the where killed for intentionally lying to God’s face – not because Peter just wanted to kill them.
WE are all going to die……what are you going to do while you are here and what do you believe will happen when you are dead?
oh yeah, the definition of a Christian is : follower of Christ.
That is not my opinion that is the definition found in Websters Dictionary.
“Son, I love you so much. I would never hurt you. I want only the best for you. You have no idea how much I love you…”
“Uh, Dad, I have a question.”
“Sure, son. Anything.”
“Well, I’m not really sure if great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great Uncle Ted really was born from an elephant. That just doesn’t seem possible. And was he really able to fly all over the place just by thinking? I don’t know.”
“Yes, son, it’s all true.”
“But do you have any evidence for it?”
“THAT I SAY IT IS GOOD ENOUGH! THAT’S IT! NOW I’M GOING TO TORTURE YOU FOREVER AND EVER AND EVER IN FLAMES WITH MAGGOTS EATING YOUR FLESH! … oh, and I love you, son, goodbye. This hurts me much more than it hurts you…”
Thats why we should all keep our beliefs to ourselves…. I’m not religious, but hearing some stories, watching some movies, and just looking at the world in general… it really seems to make crazy people even crazier…. lol… they use their beliefs to carry out violent acts.. then they say “god made me do it”… for instance:
Terrorists, Jennifer Cisowski, Teresa Ann Archie, Andrea Yates, Joseph Herman Dartez,… you get the idea.
Well said.
The God is great . so I keep him .
Is this sparta? No, this is madness.
Oh, you know how Christians have to have a Christian version of everything “the world” has.
Christian pop music, Christian romance novel, Christian really bad actors (kirk cameron).
They couldn’t just leave well enough alone. They just had to have Christian serial killers. God they’re such copy cats.
Let’s not forget the guy was an idiot. Catholics are part of the Christian religion. Duh.
But, yes, I would not hesitate one nanosecond to lie in order to save mine and others’ lives.
It helps to know what the shooter wants. In the case of the Columbine incident they were asking if people believed in God, but then shot those that said yes.
They’re psychopaths. You’re screwed if you do, screwed if you don’t.
Just get the gun and turn it on him if you can.
You say “If I were there, I would have said I was a Christian. I have no problem lying to a madman to save my life”. I think this is very interesting.
One of the most convincing proofs that God exists, to me, is the Christian martyrs. If the disciples, when threatened with death or torture would have renounced their beliefs and “lied” to stay alive, then Christianity could have ended right there. But, they didn’t. And, Christians haven’t for centuries. (I’m guessing you’ve probably read Foxe’s book of Martyrs). That is one of the main reasons why Christianity continued to spread worldwide, in the early centuries after Christs’ death, despite the great danger of professing faith in Christ. These men and women were truly convinced of God’s existence/Christ’s deity/eternal life. So much so that they were willing to die for that belief.
Just wondering…why wouldn’t you be willing to give your life for your belief that God does not exist? (please don’t take this as a sarcastic question, I just want to see your reasoning/thinking). I mean, let’s say it became illegal to be an atheist in this country and you couldn’t buy goods, own property, marry, go to school, etc. unless you professed faith in God. Now, this should be an afront to you, and I would expect you to protest. But, if it escalated to the point where you were threatened with torture/death, you would give up and lie/renounce your belief system to save your life? why? what changed to make you do this?
So, at the end of your life, when (according to my, and your former, belief system) you stand before God and you face a second eternal death, and you cannot “lie” to get out of that situation, what will you do? In other words, what is your plan if you are wrong and Christianity is right? And you do, in fact, end up face to face with God? (again, this is just an honest question)
Caliliee -
“In other words, what is your plan if you are wrong and Christianity is right? And you do, in fact, end up face to face with God?”
The same thing I’d hope that you’d do if you found yourself facing Allah, wondering why you had not born witness to the fact that He is God and Muhammad is His prophet. Or if you find yourself standing on the edges of the razor bridge leading to Ahura Mazda, God of the Zoroastrians.
I’ve hope I can say that I’ve lived the best life that I can, and in doing so left the world a better place for my descendants. If such humanism is of no use to whatever God I encounter, then that God is of no use to me.
I mean, if “lying” can’t “get you in” to whomever’s eternity because they ultimately know what you believe, then would you be prepared to accept their judgment?
Sorry, I seem to have gotten us totally off of the subject. I’ll end it here. We can agree to disagree on the topic.
Thanks for giving me a heads up on that. Well, I usually don’t get into discussions with Atheists, this is really a first for me. It is pretty scary and intimidating, but also very humbling and enlightening. My faith has not been shaken, nor will it be, as I know your beliefs won’t either. One thing I have learned from this debating is that it truly does have to be God, himself, that breaks into the life of an individual to change his mind about Him. No human argument is capable of convincing a person otherwise. Thanks for taking the time to discuss with me. I’m so thankful that we live in a country where we can have civilized discussions about our differences. Perhaps I’ll join in on another topic here that catches my eye in the future.
I just saw a really crazy post from “ilovegod” in my email inbox. Was this comment deleted? It was pretty classic.
Thought I had seen it all. Incredible. Another (of many) inspiring story of the miracle of the saving grace of jay-zus and how that transforms people (into nutcases).
Be afraid… be very afraid.
You’d be justified in being afraid of certain atheists willing to kill for their beliefs, yes.
Jeremy
If, hypothetically, I read a news story about a person who went nuts and killed a bunch of people for being religious, and said that anyone who wasn’t an atheist deserved to die… would I be justified in fearing atheism?
I’ve seen far fewer – well, none, actually – articles on crazed atheist attacks and suicide bombings/shootings against the infidels, than those done by someone for their religion, including Christianity.
When is the last time an atheist did something like this? Oh, I’m sure it has happened but I doubt it has happened as often as religious people going crazy and killing people.
Religious crazies seem to be the norm now. And not just christians.
It’s one of those internecine “well, [denomination X] aren’t Christians because of [N] deviations from my denomination!” deals.
No, Catholics are really Babylonian sun worshipers. Didn’t you get the memo?
I used to fiddle with shortwave radio, with the intention of getting broadcasts from all over the world. What I actually got was every religion nutcase within 500 miles. You could hear a Catholic explain how Protestants are heretics, then spin the dial and here a Baptist explain how Catholics were false Christians.
It depends on who you ask. I know several christians that consider catholics to be working for the devil. Thus they are not christians.
So would it be a valid criticism of atheism in general, or the way the average atheist thinks or behaves?
Obviously what I’m getting at is that I really think it’s unfair to paint a large group–ANY large group–with the same brush as an obviously mentally ill person. One can certainly point out the inconsistencies in the Christian message, or the atrocities in the bible, or the general tendencies of Christianity as a community.
But finding the latest murder-of-the-week by a psychopath is not a valid criticism of a religion. If a guy went on a shooting spree while quoting Dawkins, and Christians took that and said “See, look how atheists have no morals whatsoever!”, I doubt we’d take their accusation seriously.
Daniel, to be fair Jeremy didn’t ask you about certain atheists.
Well, this guy seriously took the God Delusion to another level. I was going to write “new level”, when I realized that this behaviour is not so new anymore.
There’s one thing with these stories I constantly fail to comprehend: When you are that angry towards the people around you, why does every nutjob opt for “Kill ‘Em All, Let God Sort ‘Em Out,” not realizing how difficult/impossible to achieve this is. Why not do the rational thing and just kill yourself. Saves you from dealing with unpleasant people way more effective…
On the other hand, you cannot expect a complete moron to act in a rational way, can you?!
I have known thousands of Christians over the years and as far as I can tell this guy is not representative in any way. There are always weird offshoots and troubled people in any movement.
“Obviously what I’m getting at is that I really think it’s unfair to paint a large group–ANY large group–with the same brush as an obviously mentally ill person.”
I don’t think anyone seriously thinks that this guy is representative of mainstream Christianity. However, the unfortunate reality is that most people seem to think that Christianity is morally superior to atheism. This event demonstrates that in actuality, neither belief system is superior to the other.
On a side note, I’d bet my right nostril that eventually someone will accuse the killer of actually being an atheist.
The Columbine High School massacre comes to mind.
The total number of atheists is very small in comparison to the number of religious folk. Therefore the number of reported incidents involving atheists-in-rampage should also be much smaller.
Maybe all this has nothing to do with religion or atheism, but human nature. According to the U.S. Department of Justice there were about 500,000 murders over a 20-year period in the U.S. alone. I remember reading (somewhere) a U.N. statistic that there’s one murder per minute somewhere in the world. My guess is that very few of these deaths are directly motivated by Christian faith or atheism. If the problem is in human nature, what does that imply for us?
Brian, to be fair, I don’t see how the first example has anything to do with religion.
I suppose I should have started with “No” instead of “Yes.”
Brian, I still don’t think those things have anything explicitly to do with religion.
In short, there is nothing in the article that established that religion *caused* any of those things — there is no clear causal relationship. That’s all I’m saying.
I think these things still would have happened without regard as to whether the individuals were religious or not.
It’s not that I don’t think you can judge religion by the acts of its followers, but it’s just that I don’t see how *these particular acts*, besides being committed by Christians, had anything to do with Christianity.
A non-religious person could easily have done the same thing.
I think you are trying to establish that they did these things *because* they were Christians, and I don’t think you can establish that.
Moreover, you don’t need to establish that. There are a lot of better examples. I just don’t like it when people use bad examples of cause and effect.
Of course, HE was HIS only son. So, in a weird way it was more like suicide. Except with the security of omnipotence and stuff.
Except, not his only son. Gen 6:2 clearly refers to the sons of god in the plural.
You kids are killing me! :D
Oooh, that was kind of insensitive, wasn’t it?
He didn’t just come back to earth…HE is living now. How many people can say that?
Maybe the sickos are the ones who are attracted to Christianity.
The ethical, aware ones want to seek what’s real and of value, instead of the set of rules with the external authority and the easy answers that make it so you don’t have to think for yourself.
They usually throw the word “begotten” in there to distinguish the cases.
What does scripture mean when referring to Jesus as God’s “only” Son? He means the only type of Son, in nature, character that God ever truly made. Jesus said, when you’ve seen me you’ve seen the Father and we hear (if we want to) in Hebrews that He (Jesus) is the radiance of God’s glory
and the exact representation of his being.
This is tied to His nature, His love. And the good news is that is who we really are…love personified if we will be regenerated, be conformed to His image, the original matrix, that One tree.
Jesus…God’s only “pattern” Son. Our ancestors lived from the tree of self, the tree of independence and it brought death (separation) now we are implored to “Eat of my flesh, drink of my blood” to eat from the tree of life which is Christ.
We were made in the image & likeness of God but were marred (perverted, twisted) due to death (sin). In Christ we have the offer to be restored, maed whole, made new and return to the original paradaisical condition…who will believe our report?
Its too good…but its true.
Sons of God is widely held to mean “Angels”
All of the then contemporary texts hold this to be true.
And, to quote Bertrand Russell, “the fact that a believer is happier than an atheist is no more relevant than the fact that a drunkard is happier than a sober man.”
Amen! Great argument.
I really don’t see how that makes much of a difference…
I think the distinction is that one was “born” whereas the others were merely *poofed* into existence.
Actually, to trinitarians it has a very specific meaning outside of born or poofed.
ty’s right; it has to do with how the relative relationship of the”personhoods” are distinguished in the trinity.
Hrm. I’m not 100% convinced that “begat” can’t also encompass *poof*.
But either way, I really don’t see how it makes a meaningful distinction. Christians claim that god loved the world so much that he killed a baby for it! (PS: Don’t try this on St. Valentine’s Day. Apparently human women and God have comepletely different ideas about what constitutes love)
The implication is that a “begotten” son is worth more than a *poof* son, but does that really follow? If god sacrificed the runt of his litter, the kid he really didn’t like very much, what does that mean for Christianity? If god has a hundred other sons, why should we care that he sacrificed one of them? Which is the real reason they need to ignore Gen 6:2 when talking about Jesus being God’s only son, I’m pretty sure.
I don’t think “begotten” is supposed to distinguish Jesus the Son from the “sons of God” mentioned in the less monotheistic sections of the Hebrew Bible.
Instead, I think “begotten” is supposed to distinguish Jesus the Son from the believing “sons of God” mentioned e.g. by Paul in Romans.
In other words, it’s not a matter of other gods or divine beings, it’s a matter of ordinary faithful humans who have been saved and liberated from sin by Jesus’ death.
Or, to make it clearer still: “begotten” signals that Jesus is supposed to be the literal son of God, not just the son of God in some metaphorical sense (the way all good Christians are sons of God).
To Russell I say “Bollocks, good sir! Bollocks!”
Sure, it may be irrelevant when attempting to judge *truth*. But it surely is relevant when talking about the sociological and psychological ramifications, is it not?
I am substantially happier as an atheist than I ever was as a Christian. And I’m usually not drunk.
Until you learn to distinguish “happiness” (a mere emotion) from “Joy” a spiritual (eternal, real) state.
Marked difference.
The raper can go to the priest and confess, he can then pray 3 “ave marias” and 4 “padre nuestros” and voila, as good as new…
The catholic church just keep getting sicker and sicker.
As a christian friend said (no catholic) once you are saved you don’t loose salvation.
That incident in Brazil is horrible.
That is SICK! What in the hell is wrong with those people!!!!
Hijack:
Was Cplumbine really an attack against the religious? I admit to not having 100% clear memory on this, but I thought it was an attack against the “cool kids.”
Christian *were* targeted in the Columbine case, and it’s important to understand why. The targeted Christians were indeed the “cool kids” as one poster has described them. They understood their faith to be a mandate to bully the weak and social outcasts. (I wonder why kids would perceive their faith that way?) The shooters were kids who had been bullied to the point of desperation. Such desperation obviously doesn’t justify murder, but it suggests that the violence wasn’t all one-sided.
Yeah, that is certainly not a Catholic belief. You need to actively confess your sins to keep on being saved. And not going to Mass regularly counts as a sin.
I’m not sure that it always works quite that easily. Isn’t there a thing called conditional absolution, where the priest can put certain conditions on your forgiveness, such as, for instance, turning yourself in to the police if you are confessing to a crime? A priest can’t report a confessed-to crime, but he has a choice to not give the offender a feeling of being all clean because he did a few rituals.
Which is not to say that the Catholic church isn’t sick. I can’t think of any organisation which has a better grasp on how to control people by guilt.
A lot of fundamentalist protestants don’t consider Catholics as Christians for a few reasons:
1. The Pope
2. Saints
3. The Worship of the Virgin Mary
4. Confession
Those are the four most commonly cited reasons I can think of here where I live.
The only reference I can see on the Wiki page is this:
It really doesn’t seem like a lot to hang a claim of the shooting being motivated by atheism against religion, to me. But if anyone has more details, I’d be interested.
Of course at the same time no actual actions of yours can save you. Actions can only damn you more.
Yeah, this is what pisses me off about the “faith, not works” crowd. All your sins are added up, and you get sent to hell. But good things don’t get counted in mitigation. It really is a matter of stacking the deck….
“OK, let’s see, you built hospitals all across the third-world, bringing free medical care to people who needed it most; you spent your weekends rescuing kittens from burning buildings and helping little old ladies across the world; every years for 20 years the UN voted you “World’s Most Bestest Person Ever” for your selfless service to humanity. But you stole a cookie when you were three, so it’s Hell for you. Sorry.”
Which is weird, because #2 and #3 are the parts of Catholicism I enjoy more than Protestantism.
Well technically, Catholics aren’t supposed to worship Mary. They are supposed to be asking Mary for her intercessory prayers, same thing with the saints. Probably some end up crossing the line into worship but it is not actual Catholic theology to worship Mary.
Holy smoke. I had never heard of it. PML. Check out how violent this Christian based game is.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_forces
At least it had a lot of Christian critics.
I think these protestants think:
prayer to = worship
This reminds of a comment from another thread on here the other day when someone said something to the effect of “it’s like pretending that you’re eating ice cream”, and I thought, well yes, that would actually appeal to a lot of people…
Is it?
Should we encourage drunkenness?
Was their religion the reason they were targeted, was was it the fact that they were jerks?
I think the fact that they were jerks and the fact that they were Christians are related. I think Christianity has a way of breeding jerks, even if not all Christians actually are jerks. You may have noticed that every time an anti-bullying bill comes before a state legislature Christian organizations rush to oppose it.
I didn’t say it should be encouraged. I just implied, you can’t pretend that people will magically respond to logic…and *poof*, they’ll agree with you.
I was responding to ‘Nope.
No, but we should take honest stock of whether alcohol makes people happy before we decide what to go do with it. Yes?
Alcohol (and other drugs) increases dopamine in the brain (one of the neurotransmitters involved in happiness along with serotonin).
So, who’s to say that alcohol doesn’t make us happy?
Who’s to say that cocaine doesn’t make us happy?
Who’s to say that religious ecstacy won’t make us happy?
(I was being sarcastic there!)
The man was schizophrenic and clearly out of touch with reality. You can’t honestly believe the voices in his head were God.
Me too! (although I’m not an atheist, just anti-religion)
Too bad Jesus wasn’t around to drive his demon into pigs! Man, what a difference that would have made!
I think that almost all mental illness (illness, not retardation) is demonic possession. We’ve just written it off so that we don’t have to deal with a spiritual reality.
Someone mention me??? I’ve been away on business for two days and I come back to “John C-esque??
Dont worry, I missed ya too LRA! lol
:)
JC-
Despite our obvious differences, you seem very grampa-esque to me (obviously, I’m into things being “esque” these days). Thanks for caring, even if you confound the hell outta me.
Thx LRA…that’s sweet. Take care
Hey, Karleigh,
Vidlord is being “ironic”. He is being satirical. Hope that helps.
Actually I never really experienced joy until I dumped “GOD”. “Joy” is the Christian cop out for being miserable because one can never measure up to what the other hypocrites think you should be.
If you really want to make that distinction..
I feel joy often.. very often.
I feel it when i sit on my balcony and feel the sun and hear the birds.
I feel it when i hear a pretty song on the radio.
I feel it when i smell certain smells.
I feel it when i read a specifically good book
I feel it when i look at my cat and she just looks all cute and adorable and goes Mew! at me.
And now don’t say that’s not “true” joy as i would feel it so oftern it must be mere happyness.
You don’t knwo what i feel :)
What’s the difference between hearing voices that you believe are God that tell you to do bad things and hearing voices that you believe are God that tell you to do good things?
Turns out, everyone who claims to have heard God, no matter the message, was probably schizophrenic, or schizotypal, or a liar trying to get attention.
Nope, I never think voices in people’s heads are god. I don’t think god told Abraham to kill his son, nor do I think god told this man to kill people who weren’t Christians.
Why?
Because I don’t think God exists.
Dutchgirl as I understand it the ten commandments only apply when around other christians. They don’t apply when wanting to kill none christians. That is how it was explained to me to justify the many wars after the ten commandments were given.
Imagine that you bring up a son to use firearms safely. Every day you read from the Firearms Safety Manual. You repeatedly read him pages 1 to 19 to the point he can recite them verbatim. You tell him to always, always do what the Manual says. Never question it, because it was written to ensure safety. Don’t think about it; just do it.
When he turns 18, a friend asks him if he’s ever read page 20. He says “No, my parents only ever read pages 1-19 to me”. His friend suggests he reads it. He does, and follows its instructions. Page 20 says to shoot children.
Are you, his teacher, without fault? You selected passages and taught him things that would keep everyone safe. But it was your teaching him that caused him to become a child-killer.
Indeed, there are many passages in the Bible in which God either kills or orders the killing of people. (See for instance, http://www.evilbible.com/.) In particular, in 2 Kings 10:18-27 he orders the murder of those who worship a different god (Baal).
The problem here is not that he didn’t understand. The problem here is that he was taught to blindly follow a book.
People need to be taught to think, justify, and take responsibility for yourself, regardless of what you think a god wants.
Because then he would go to hell and not get his reward for killing those evil non-christians. LOL
You’re a universalist, right?
“I have a 6 year old son. I would do anything for him. He is very special to me. I love him very much. I’m sure you have someone you love very much and would do anything for.”
But would you punish him for all eternity if he didn’t believe in a story that your great great grandfather did?
“…yes I have taken a paddle to him.”
This is abuse.
If your perspective is that of an abuser, I guess it’s easier to imagine an abusive (but loving) god though.
“We talk, and he doesn’t ask me why I spanked him or why I made him cry.”
6 years old, right? You paddled him and physically hurt him enough to make him cry, than have the gall to make the statement “he doesn’t ask me why.” Somehow, you rationalize a 6 year olds thoughts on the matter as “unconditional love” because he doesn’t ask you why. I’d wager he doesn’t ask you because of another reason …fear – fear of more of that paddle. More than anything, when he gets older, he will remember that paddle more than he does your “talks.”
It has nothing to do with “measuring up” this is why most “christians” give up…and rightly so. His burden is light, easy…its about Him living His life through us, not us trying to live up to His standards. No wonder it made you miserable, it was intended to so you would…give up trying. The end of you is the beginning of Him. The journey may not be over for you, this may be a “rest” stop to clear the fog of religious rule-keeping which is not what Christ offers, just the opposite. Its good to shed “religion”.
All the best…
You’re stupid as hell if you believed that.
“Many” would be wrong.
If life begins at conception, and if as many as 50% of pregnancies end in miscarriage (even before implantation), that by far makes god the greatest abortionist of all time.
By the way, where are those babies?
If they are in heaven, then its a good thing they were aborted before they got a chance to sin. They are so happy right now! Cause otherwise some of them might have grown up to be atheists or buddhists or something and then went to hell.
If they are in hell, well, God is worse than I thought.
As Bill said, “Many” would be wrong. A study published in the Journal of Religion and Society reported that the more atheistic a society is the lower its abortion rate, and that within the US:
“Increasing adolescent abortion rates show positive correlation with increasing belief and worship of a creator, and negative correlation with increasing non-theism and acceptance of evolution; again rates are uniquely high in the U.S.”
The study can be found here:
http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html
And “many” Xians against abortion have not stepped away from their prayers and demonstrations, given their debates a rest, and gotten off their asses and done something useful, compassionate and helpful toward providing the vasectomies and safe, inexpensive, available, effective contraception, that would prevent the abortions they claim that they don’t want.
They must have a hidden agenda!
Listen I understand where you are coming from. And let me be very clear, I am not here to condem you or go “Your and idot, how could you not believe in God”. I believe to many Christian don’t show the love and compassion that is talked about in the Word when it comes to those who don’t believe. Christian get offended when someone questions what they believe because they themselves really don’t understand what they believe. We don’t spend the time to find out what is said in the Word we just agree because some minister or pastor said it. We also make God more complicated than he really is. When you ask Why did God kick Adam and Eve out of eden, Why did God ask Abraham to sacfrice his on son or Why would God kill his on son for something he didn’t do, Christian think how dare you question what I believe or question my God. We don’t want to answer tough question. We are afraid to say I don’t know because that would mean we are questioning our faith. To question God is something you don’t do. But the truth is God is saying “Go ahead question me. That is how you will get to know me”.
My point with my son is this: No matter what I love him. As you love your children. My son loves me even though he dosen’t understand why I do some of the things I do that upset him: (No toys, spanks, No you can’t go, etc.) You have heard it said: “Mom can I go do this or do that” mom says “NO” the kid says, “Why”, mom says “Because I said so that why”. The kid get up set, thinks his parents are stupid. But all the time mom knew something the kid didn’t know nor needed to know that kept them out of trouble.
God loves you even though you don’t love him. Jesus died for you even though you don’t believe in him.
That is real love.
No.
Why not? Your illustration of a loving father, to my eye, can be exempliary of nothing else. Perhaps I am wrong.
Story continues:
As the years went by my wife and I had several other children. We love them all. But one son disagreed with me on some matters. I told him over and over that if he didn’t agree with me by his 65th birthday he would never again be allowed in my home. Well, his 65th birthday passed and now he can’t come back. This morning my other son, who was extremely close to the recalcitrant, pleaded with me: “Father, I know you love him. We are rich and powerful. Please go again. Reach out to him”. I said to my crying son, “Here, let me wipe away your tears”.
I’m confused… How does that work out?
I have a very very simple belief system: I hope there’s a God (for philosophical reasons). That’s it.
First off, no Christians have flown planes into buildings. Show your source for that.
Second, atheism is ridiculously littered with slayings. Stalin and Mao killed tens of millions, not to mention Lenin, Pol Pot, Mengistu, and Kim Il-Sung. (I got all of these examples from Chapters VII and XIII of this book: http://irrationalatheist.com/freedl.html). These men were atheist leaders trying to eradicate religion from their nations.
Also, as schizophrenia is an inherited condition, does that mean the person inherits the demon from the parent? (does the demon split itself or does a new demon come along?)
What the other Brian is saying is that you can’t cherry-pick parts of the concept of familial love without then following through consistently.
Yes, I have noticed that Christians are not very coherent, literate, or any good at supporting their often-rambling arguments, based on premises they cant verify.
“These men were atheist leaders trying to eradicate religion from their nations.”
I’m sorry, but what evidence do you have that these men were motivated by their atheism? I’d say that this slaughter was caused by their extreme Communist authoritarianism.
Remember, Communism and atheism are not synonymous. Daniel Ortega, whose Sandinistas have been involved in so much death, is a Catholic influenced by an extreme form of the Liberation Theology movement. Then there is the Maoist terrorist group National Socialist Council of Nagaland, whose slogan is “Nagaland for Christ.”
It seems more reasonable to me to lay the blame for the bloodshed on fanatical Communist and authoritarian beliefs. Stalin’s purges had nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with his control over Russia. Mao’s horrific “Great Leap Forward” was an economic policy rather than a religious one.
BTW, you may be interested in Deacon Duncan’s rebuttals to Vox Day over at Evangelical Realism.
Psalm 82:6…ye (speaking to men) are all gods and sons of the most high God.
Just noticed that link is from a church and the author raises some great questions…
Take it a step further and consider that none of these people were “heathens” or “unbelievers.” All of these people were the people of God. Nadab and Abihu were priests of God. Korah was a leader in the Israelites community. Uzzah was an Israelite. Ananias and Sapphira were baptized Christians. God did not strike down the unbelieving murders and the heathen adulterers. It was the people of God who were punished.
All of those men you mentioned above did things which they had been very clearly told not to do.
Nadab and Abihu blatantly profaned a sacrifice – they knew as well as anyone (if not more, since they where priests) what they where doing was strictly forbidden.
Korah was seeking his own power and glory, and rebelling against God’s clearly chosen leader.
All Israelites knew very clearly that NOBODY was to touch The Ark under any circumstance.
Ananias and Sapphira purposely lied to God about the money they where giving. They where not obligated at all to give all the money from their land (or any money, for that matter), but they intended to deceive.
Each one chose to sin.
God doesn’t have a face, remember? Or if he does, it’s awesome majesty would kill you with just a glimpse.
Anyway, I wasn’t suggesting that Peter killed the couple on a whim. Acts is clear that they tried to withhold money from the community.
It still establishes a principle, however: lie to a priest or try to withhold money from the church, you die. Just how comfortable are you with this policy?
jtornado, please show me where in the bible Ananias and Sapphira commited something worth their lives. There was not even a fair trail.
…sold a piece of property. With his wife’s full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles’ feet. …
I see nothing wrong with that.
And out of the blue Peter acuse him of lying to god and then the guy is killed.
The sin is “lying” , what was the lie?
As I said before, some Protestants do not think Catholics are Christians. Your conception of a Christian as someone who tries to be Christ like, though perhaps praiseworthy, still is nothing more than your personal conception of what a “real” Christian is. It remains nothing more than subjective opinion, no matter how many people may share it with you.
(By the way, even the ideal of “perfection” itself is subjective. What some people consider “perfect” others may consider “imperfect” or even “malicious.”)
By the way, were the Protestants and Catholics that killed one another in the religious wars of Europe “real” Christians? I would say that they were. They defined themselves as being “true” Christians and the people that they killed as being “false” ones. And they saw themselves as helping to preserve and protect “true” Christianity by killing people they perceived as being “heretics.”
Here’s the bottom line: You can only determine whether people are Christian or not by asking them. If they say they are, then indeed they are Christians. If they say they are not, then they aren’t.
Harleigh Kyson Jr.
So is that to say, unquestioningly, that your government or society has a moral imperative to enforce ‘God’s Law’ as they interpret it? Would that not make any opposing views or opinions worthy of your death penalty to protect your beliefs? I’ve read my history books and paid good attention in school, and I’ve yet to hear a a government on this Earth that did not suffer from some level of corruption or scandal. Putting entire populations to death to protect your religion or the staus quo has been justified by governments even in recent history. Hitler anyone? All his actions were done in search of a pagan Reich and were done in the name of the people. And his people believed in their actions. That sounds like a good cause, doesn’t it? Serving your god and protecting your people? That’s all god really wants, right? For some reason American’s interpret it differently when an American does it…………[sarcasm]
And just a note, since no one commented:
Catholics ARE Christians, for God’s sake!!!!! They were the first and original followers of Christ, the latin translation means ‘Universal’ (Belief). All other forms of Christianity (protestantism- wiki it) are technically abominations of the original religion. They are broad interpretations of a text poorly translated to begin with. I don’t understand how the idea has become that only Mormons or Baptists are Christians. Very naive………………especially considering where those religions came from lol. I’d argue whether or not THEY are Christians myself. :)
Also, to get back to the original topic (the crazed Colorado shooter), the JRS study suggests that it is precisely because the US is such a “Christian” nation that it has such high rates of murder and violent crime.
And how many people can say THEY cast demons into pigs or shot up into the stratosphere or are coming back from outer space riding on white horses and shooting swords out of THEIR mouths?
The lie is that they told Paul they were donating the whole amount of the sale.
Pliny tells us that all the early Christians he met were more than willing to renounce Christianity in order to live. Most people, I think, value life over ideological purity; but there are people of all stripes that would avoid telling a lie about something important to them, even at the cost of their lives.
As to what happened to the disciples, I’m not aware of any decent evidence either way; many Christians tell me that they were martyred, btu I’ve never been able to find any evidence of it. Can you point me in the right direction? Thanks.
Honestly, in that position, I’d like to think that I’d not compromise my beliefs, but I’ve never been there (and hopefully never will), and I can’t really say how I’d react. Probably the same way as the majority of the early Christians did…
1.) We have no record of the deaths of the early apostles.
2.) Later Christians gave their lives, at least in part, so they might be granted entrance to heaven. Much like for many radical Muslims today, martyrdom was considered a sure way into paradise.
3.) When you have a world denying faith that says the world is a corrupt and fallen place, leaving it is no great loss. “This world is not our home”, etc.
Atheists, however, believe that this is our only shot. There’s no greater place to go to after this.
4.) Obviously, dying for the honor of a God you believe in can make sense. When you don’t believe in God, what exactly would you be dying for? What would you be accomplishing? Maybe I’m too pragmatic, but I don’t see the point.
Caliliee,
I’ve responded to this point here:
http://unreasonablefaith.com/2008/08/15/martyrdom-does-not-establish-truth/
I might be willing to give my life for freedom — that is, to let people worship or not worship as they choose. Certainly in the right situation I would. But I would not give up my life if I can say a simple lie to a madman.
Christian martyrs may have played a significant historical role in assuring that Christianity would be one of the “lucky” religions to survive for the past 2000 years, but their deaths, in and of themselves, do not prove the religious validity of Christianity. They merely show that these people had a strong enough emotional connection with Christianity to give their lives for it.
Christianity as a religion is only 2,000 years old. We as a species have lived on this planet for 100,000 or 200,000 years, though many Christians refuse to believe this.
In another thread I asked this question: How on earth did we as a species manage to do without the services of Moses or Christ for the tens of thousands of years of our existence before Christianity was born?
The fact that we did without Christianity for these many thousands of years establishes that the Christian religion has nothing special to offer mankind over what other past religions have had to offer or what new religions in the future will have to offer.
Harleigh Kyson Jr.
Honesty?
It’s a weak reason I know, but it might be enough for me. Not that I ever want to know for sure.
You write, “Atheists, however, believe that this is our only shot. There’s no greater place to go to after this.” I can understand, now why you wouldn’t want to die just for this belief. I appreciate your honesty. Can I ask you a question – how does this bear on your life, the thought that this life’s all we got, after it’s done that’s it, it’s over?
I suppose, but I’m not that much of an idealist. I’m a humanist and a pragmatist. I’d like to leave humanity the better for my being here, but I can only do that while alive. I would only sacrifice my life for something when I believed that humanity would be better for that sacrifice than for my continued existence.
Wintermute,
You write, “many Christians tell me that they were martyred, btu I’ve never been able to find any evidence of it. Can you point me in the right direction?”
Read JESUS FREAKS by DC Talk and the Voice of the Martyrs. Also, go to http://www.VOM.com to read stories of present day Christian martyrs.
sorry, that’s http://www.persecution.com
Ah, I’m sorry. I thought you were talking about the early Christians who had first-hand knowledge of Jesus. It was your use of the word “disciples” that threw me off. Not to mention “in the early centuries after Christs’ death”.
I apologise for not realising you were only talking about modern martyrdom.
Obviously, I accept that there are modern Christian martyrs, just as there are modern Islamic or Buddhist martyrs. Equally obviously, this doesn’t prove that their beliefs are true.
… I’m going to ask him why he didn’t have a cool hammer like Thor.
If that did turn out to be the case, I will have many questions.
What’s your plan if the Mormons are right? Or the Scientologists? Or if God exists, but he’s deliberately hidden himself and planted the Bible as a false book, so that he can reward honest atheism at the expense and punish unquestioned faith?
Caliliee – this is what we expect to face when we die:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urlTBBKTO68
Callilee,
What evidence exists that your scenario will happen?
Hypothetically, if there was a god like the one the OT, and like the one from the Revelation of John, I’d be honest.
“I didn’t see any reason to believe in you…it’s almost like there wasn’t a god at all, that fallible humans compiled your scriptures and that your religious organizations evolved and splintered in a way which implied no divine guidance…plus the Bible makes you look like a jackass.”
Caliliee:
The Judgment Day myth is perhaps the most perverse feature of Christianity. It was obviously invented a long time ago by Christian leaders who wanted to intimidate the people following them so that they could get them to do what they wanted (and often make a lot of money in the process).
Such perverse myths are by no means limited to Christianity. Many religions have them so that their leaders can get their followers to do their bidding by inspiring abject fear in them.
The Catholic Church once made a lot of money by selling indulgences for sinful behavior. They would tell some superstitious follower with a lot of land and/or money, “Yes, you have led a sinful life and will probably be condemned to hell because God’s grace has its limits. But we can offer you a sure way out: Just give us all your land and money after you die and we will pray for you. With our intervention you may have to spend some time suffering in purgatory before you get to heaven (!!!), but you will be able to avoid the eternal torments of hell.”
Harleigh Kyson Jr.
I was speaking of Jesus’ disciples and early Christians. They are written about in Jesus Freaks. It is true that a couple of the disciples, like Andrew were based on oral tradition, but most were based on actual proof. And, the story of Andrew is amazing, because the Scottish flag and our confederate flag are based on the story of his martyrdom.
Am I missing something? Isn’t DC Talk a Christian rap act?
It makes this life one of infinite value. I’m not going to go from six to midnight about an afterlife someone told me might be there.
What reckoner71 said, basically.
I think that it’s the limitations that make life worth living. As someone once said, “The essence of every painting is the frame.” There’s no art in rejecting your painting because it’s not a mural. Art is in working within your limitations and somehow transcending them. If I can live this one life and somehow help and shape those lives around me and the lives to come after me, that is an accomplishment.
The notion that life could stretch on infinitely seems to rob it of some of it’s zest. I’d have an infinite amount of time to do, redo, or undo everything, so nothing I’d do would ever be meaningful. My time would have no scarcity, so it would have no value.
Game, set and match.
What you are asking makes little sense. If the deity is capable of detecting a person’s thoughts and beliefs directly, then the judgment process is hardly participatory. Thus, there can be in no practical sense a choice to “accept” the judgment; what will be will be.
If you mean by ‘accept’, “will you be able to accept in a psychological sense whatever decision the deity makes as just?”, I imagine that depends on what the deity bases its decision upon. If the criteria make sense, then yes. If they do not, then no. In the latter case, I’ll takes my chances in the lake of whatever it is that that God isn’t.
For some reason, this conversation reminds me of Charles Freck’s failed suicide attempt in A Scanner Darkly.
Nope. I will always reject a judgment based on an arbitrary premise I don’t share.
There is absolutely no compelling evidence that any version of god is true, much less sufficient evidence to choose from the many thousands of versions of him.
If I were to face a god -I have no doubt I won’t, but if- then I’d say, “You did a really shitty job of letting us know you existed, and which version of worship you wanted.”
If he wants to cast me into eternal torment for that, so be it. Any god that would use eternal torment in the first place is not worthy of worship, so he can kiss my eternally tormented ass.
One of my favourite scenes, and films.
If I’m not mistaken, isn’t your Gravatar a picture of Barris? It’s hard to tell for sure because of the cropping.
I’m a Linklater and a P. K. Dick fan, so imagine my glee when I found out that he would be doing A Scanner Darkly. I really enjoyed it; the film gets under my skin in a way that few have.
One of my best friends is a judge for this years PK Dick award!
Squee!
When it comes down to it, everything I believe is based on faith, you are correct about that. But, that doesn’t mean there isn’t any evidence. There is plenty of historical, archaelogical, geological and scientific evidence which supports the validity of the Bible upon which I base my faith. Books like: More Than a Carpenter, Evidence that Demands a Verdict, The Case for Christ all put forth this evidence. Sites like: http://www.answersingenesis.org gives evidence that supports the biblical record and provides plenty of evidence upon which I base my faith. So, it is not a blind faith that I follow, but one based upon reason and evidence. You might read one of the books or visit the site I referenced to see some of this evidence that exists for yourself.
I’ve read The Case for Christ and Evidence that Demands a Verdict. Both are very poor, primarily consisting of bald assertions of “facts” that, on investigation, turn out to not actually be true.
I’ve also read much of AiG, and it’s much the same. You might want to look at No Answers in Genesis for some specific refutations, for example.
“There is plenty of historical, archaeological, geological and scientific evidence which supports the validity of the Bible upon which I base my faith.”
Whoooo, boy, careful with statements like that. On an atheist board that kind of thing can get you mobbed.
For the record, there’s probably not a statement in any of those sources that can’t be seriously argued with. Apologetics are almost always tools to shore up the confidence of the believer rather than make a serious case to the unbeliever. As long as it sounds good, the apologist will use it.
If you have limitless time and a bit of a masochistic streak, you can wade through the counter-apologetic archives over at Internet Infidels. They list each apologist by name and link to literally hundreds of articles attacking this-or-that argument.
Wow, I can get mobbed for stating there might be evidence supporting the Bible in science? Now, I thought Atheists weren’t violent???
“Now, I thought Atheists weren’t violent???”
We’re not. We’re just … over-prepared, I suppose.
There are a handful of comments that atheist blogs see over and over again. Things like “you can’t prove God doesn’t exist,” and “atheists have no morality.” “There’s plenty of evidence for the bible …” is another one.
Because we deal with them so often, we’ve all got some pat responses. And when someone shows up with one of these, we spring into action. At once.
So the poor visitor suddenly gets 17 responses, some of them rather annoyed. They usually don’t stick around to play after that.
Glad to hear you’ve done your homework! I also looked at NAiG, but couldn’t really find any scientific evidence to refute AiG’s findings. To me it was mostly generalized statements against creationism, but they didn’t point to any particular findings that they disagree with AiG on. It seemed they were basing their disagreement on the general theory of creationism and what creationists believe i.e. world-wide flood, six literal day creation, age of the earth, but it didn’t specifically say what proof there was to refute it.
You may THINK that it was God himself that broke into your life and gave you your religious feelings, but most likely your religious epiphanies are nothing more than an artifact of the electrochemistry of your brain.
It has now been shown that mystical experiences can be artificially induced under controlled circumstances by electromagnetically stimulating a certain part of the brain.
People taking LSD have also reported having these experiences from time to time. Quite possibly it will be possible before all that long to develop drugs enabling people to “find God” simply by dropping a pill.
Harleigh Kyson Jr.
Caliliee – nothing about a blog should be scary or intimidating. Keep in mind it’s just text on the computer screen. We welcome your input here and we appreciate it. Please feel free to share your thoughts. You should feel comfortable here. After all, many of us were just like you at one time. Oh and we’re not here to shake your faith. Enjoy your faith – a healthy debate is what we seek, and debating with ourselves can be quite boring.
First thanks for hanging out here and discussing things with us. I think that’s great. You said:
You may perceive atheists as closeminded, but we would NEVER say “my beliefs will never be shaken.” We realize we’ve been wrong before and we may be wrong now. We’ll believe anything really as long as there is evidence. We believe all kinds of things that are weird, not because we necessarily want to, but because there’s evidence. Like atoms. Everything is made up of little spinning microdots? We never actually touch anything? Seriously? But there’s lots of evidence for it, so we believe it. If there was new evidence that it wasn’t right, we’d move along to something else. That’s science. It’s wonderful.
It’s also the opposite of religion, which refuses to consider anything else and insists that what it originally hypotheses is right, no matter how many times it is shown wrong. This is why it is so hard to get people out of their religion, whether it is Christianity, Islam, or Hinduism.
So when we say, “show us some evidence for your God” we’re being quite sincere. Of course we don’t think there is any — that’s why we are atheists. But if there WAS something that we perceived as evidence, then we’d change our beliefs. That’s science. We go where the evidence leads.
Compare this to the Christian perspective that says that no matter what, their faith will not be shaken. To me that is foolish — it means that truth is less important than current opinions.
But even you know that you have been wrong before, and could be now. So why old your ideas so tightly? Why insist that your faith could never be shaken? If that is truly the case, I pity you in a way. How can you not be open to new ideas? That you might be wrong?
Daniel, Thanks for correcting me. I see now how your beliefs cannot be shaken. If they are ever-changing, constantly seeking out “true” evidence, then, by definition, they can’t be shaken. I wouldn’t say that I am holding to “my” ideas. I try not to hold on to any “man’s” ideas. This is why I left the Catholic church many years ago. I saw, like Harleigh, many “ideas” that didn’t square up with the teachings of God’s Word. In my current Christian walk, I am beginning to change my mind about the “rapture”. I have other things that I disagree with other believers about. But, on the main tenents of the Christian faith, I will hold strongly to those. I do believe there is only one true God, and that Jesus is God incarnate, that He died and rose at the ressurrection, etc. (you know all this). I didn’t become a Christian until I was in my early 20’s. Until then I totally believed in evolution. I always believed in God, but didn’t believe the Bible was inspired. I, too, believed it had simply been formulated by men as a means of controlling people. I guess you could say I’m you in reverse (maybe not totally, but you get the picture). As you know, Scripture teaches “…Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming.” When I was young, It was easy to go with the flow. I didn’t mind following every wind of teaching. But, starting a family changed all that. If you’re going to raise four children, you NEED stability. God brought that stability for me and my family like nothing else ever did, and I don’t think anything else ever will. So, it’s not that I have closed my mind off to other things, it’s just that I’ve settled my mind where I feel most secure. It’s kind of like falling in love. When you find that one person, you kinda just stop looking elsewhere and everything else just fades into the background. I’ve fallen in love with Jesus and, yes, even God’s Word. He HAS proven himself to me time and time again as I’ve walked in this relationship with Him. My Christian walk is about a relationship, not religion. Like you, I can do without religion. I CANNOT do with God. Without Him, my life would be meaningless and wasted, I think.
Caliliee – very well said. Sums up what almost all my Christian friends believe. Jesus is your security blanket. Jesus allows you to feel stability in your life, you feel secure. You say “It’s kind of like falling in love.” which is perfectly appropriate to what I’m getting at.
Notice how much of your relationship with Jesus is about feelings – emotions. That is where we diverge. We do not let emotions cloud our minds from clear, purposeful thinking. I’m sure your security blanket is warm, fluffy and extremely comfortable for you – but some of us choose to brave the cold and see reality with clear eyes, devoid of emotional attachment. And then we find that it’s not cold at all, but beautiful warm and full of life, with the need for a blanket long gone, much like a child gives up their favorite blanket as they get older and wiser…
You should be reminded that the texts of the Bible were written around 2,000 years ago by members of a culture of ignorant sheepherders (that is why Christianity has expressions like “lamb of God”) who knew next to nothing nothing about geology, astronomy or biology.
They were highly ethnocentric (they believed that they were God’s chosen people), and they were benighted in many other ways. They believed, for example, in stoning women for adultery (the Muslims still approve of the practice).
The Bible is filled with absurdities and disgusting monstrosities. Since it is a composite work written by a variety authors at different time periods who plagiarized much of its material from earlier writings, it is also filled with contradictions. In no way does it deserve the cultural prestige we have traditionally awarded it!
Harleigh Kyson Jr.
Actually, I wouldn’t say He’s my security blanket, He’s my rock, meaning He is the only steadfast, solid thing in my life that I can count on to remain unchanged. Now back to the “love/emotion” thing. If you’re married, or in any relationship, you know that after a while it gets difficult to live on the emotion of love alone because feelings of love come and go. Emotions can’t sustain a relationship alone (just look at our nation’s divorce rate). I wonder if Daniel would comment on this. Would you say that when you believed it was more of an “emotional” thing, not based on rational thinking. If so, did that emotional feeling run out at some point, like in any relationship and then you moved on?
Caliliee,
You asked:
It was initially emotional — the usual born again experience where you have a major life change. Then it became more intellectual. And I was satisfied intellectually for a long time, all the while feeling love for God and Jesus. It was only towards the end that I realized that emotion was not enough — a person can love their imaginary friend a lot, but that doesn’t make them real.
As Teleprompter said: “Oh, here we frackin’ go…”
THAT old tiresome argument AGAIN!
That is a trick, a handy device, to avoid this fact:
That this weirdo (and that and the other weirdo, and that one over there, and how about this one?) IS CHRISTIAN and acted on his Christian beliefs.
Of course I judge Christianity by him! What the hell OTHER religion did you think it was?
Face it. You can’t squirm out of it.
I actually did not say that. But I probably posted right below whoever did say it.
If christians are well-adjusted, it is in spite of their religion and not because of it. As Daniel pointed out in the post, the bible is full of this kind of condoned violence.
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