And other good questions from The West Wing for people who base their morality on the Bible:
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I do miss that show.
Well, the first couple seasons anyway.
Daniel, when you were still a believer how many christian families did you know that sold their daughter’s into slavery? Can you name one?
Enquiring minds want to know…Jerry Springer like tactics here.
Come’on D…you’re better than this.
*foul* 15 yard penalty, loss of site rank.
wwFSMd?
All new truths start out as blasphemy’s.
John,
Unfortunately, I am unable to view this video as I am at work. However, it’s a simple question really. The Bible spefically deals with the particulars of this kind of stuff. It’s your holy book that you choose to follow. Please explain why such horrid passages and commandments exist in the supposed word of god.
Also, most christians don’t sell their daughters into slavery, b/c they know that part of the bible is simply a moral relic from ages past and nothing more. But, if that part of the bible is merely a relic of the past, what about the other parts?
” Enquiring minds want to know…Jerry Springer like tactics here.
Come’on D…you’re better than this.
*foul* 15 yard penalty, loss of site rank. ”
mark: Why dont you stop playing games and answer the question. Evade all you want, the reality is your divine,loving,just and merciful god gave instructions on how to sell ones daughter into slavery.
No decent bieng has any business giving or listening to instuctions on how to sale ones daughter or someone elses daughter into slavery.
If you just happened to walk by me one day and heard me advising my son, friend, brother or whomever else on how to sale daughters into slavery you would not think I was moral.
But yet you claim god is moral inspite of this outrageous behavior.
John c please tackle this question if you will why am I a flawed and sinful human bieng held to a higher level of morality than Yaweh who is supposed to be perfect and divine?
Watch out, them’s fightin’ wurdz!
the magic cococut is love. he is trustworthy, also if you are stranded in the desert the magic cocunut will make sure you dont die of thirst. that is a fact that can be proved scientifically.
what john c fails to understand is this, thier is an unseen spirit realm where the magic coconut lives.
i hope all of you good folks here at uf understand that the magic coconut is truth.
p.s he the magic coconut of course, also works for/with the fsm and ipu. i hope john c is keeping an open mind about the magic coconut because thier is so much more than this fleshy existence we call life.
the magic coconut =love and love=the magic coconut.
I tried to prove it.
I love that new LED lamp that i have. i LOVE it.
So i tried to let it run on that love and not put it in the socket so it could get electricity.
And i really love it.. LOOOOVEEEEE
It wouldn’t run though.. I just sat there in the dark.. loving my new light..
So love is not power.
My fiancee and I have been busy lately introducing a friend of ours to The West Wing. It is astonishing in retrospect how good that show was. And this is coming from someone on the conservative side of the non-existent line, here.
Mmmm, word salad…
*drool*
JC passes the Turing test!
A classic clip!
Holy FSM John! What the hell are you talking about? Please stop blathering about some unprovable garbage and tell us why your bible is so chock full of evil and nastiness. And since you seem so fond of the new testament, please tell us why Paul is such a misogynist. Men are the head of the house, the hear of the church, the head of everything. Sounds like he’s got some confidence issues, or maybe he’s compensating for something. I don’t know.
You speak of life and truth through knowledge of god, yet the only concrete thing your got has supposedly gien us is a long winded, bloody, contradictory, frightening amalgam of fairy tales with a few nice bits thrown in. If reading the bible with an open mind doesn’t make someone an atheist, I don’t know what will.
This clip is great, of course it is… (to be fair, I probably wouldn’t be a regular visitor to UF if I didn’t enjoy seeing god-botherers and jesus-squeezers made to look hard at their holy book and feel shame at its paucity) but I have another question…
“John C” ? – nobody can be this bereft of sense can they?, nobody can be this utterly asinine? no-one this willing to be laughed at?
I claim Poe – I claim that John C is Daniel in disguise, making the stupidest of stupid comments so as to make the dribble-heads look silly
Do I win $10 ?
“What’s a good price to sell my daughter into slavery?”
Don’t sell your daughter into slavery, just ask Lord Obama not to raise your taxes and then pray to him really hard. Unfortunately, he doesn’t answer prayers anymore than the flying spaghetti monster, so I guess you might as well sell your daughter. Just make sure you insist on payment in Euros, since the dollar will be worth less than your daughter’s body after two decades worth of analization.
I have…but you would not hear lest your kingdom be threatened by the Christ child’s rule and reign within.
On more than one occasion I pretended that Bartlett was the real President, not George W. :)
I missed this episode when the West Wing was on. The logic is simple and ironclad, you just cannot argue with the message in this clip. Well, many try, none successfully.
Thanks for posting this Daniel.
Damn… I really need to go back and watch that show.
(I always worked on the nights it aired….)
Great clip! This was one of the main questions that drove me away from the claim that my evangelical peers made that the bible was to be taken literally and was divinely inspired. The other was the idea that a god would create a bunch of people who had to worship him and believe in his son to go to heaven, and yet didn’t give all people the opportunity to know him. Seemed a little rigged.
And for the record, some days I’d be willing to trade my daughter for a set of new tires and a weekend pass to Six Flags… oh, the joy of teen-aged daughters! :)
This John C. I never heard so many words lacking in content or meaning.
He refuses to give a straight answer on direct questions and rambles on about imaginary worlds being more real than the real world.
Answer a question will you, it’s so frustrating. It’s like trying to catch a greased pig. Everytime you corner him he just slips away.
This is part of the reason I lost my faith. There are so many questions that Christianity can’t answer. Strangely I have my answers now that I’m a non believer. Once you take God out of the picture the answers become simple logic.
Don’t know if this is funny or ironic but Martin Sheen is actually very pious in his personal life. I think this is a difference of OT and NT again. Christ came to create a new covenant, not just to reiterate the same thing that has already been spoken in the Mosiac law, there would be no use to come and die if there was not going to be a change in application. The difference is that Christ came to give us life not just a bunch of rules to follow. I have the same trouble with the OT, I respect it but don’t adhere to these kinds of legalistic rituals or laws. Otherwise I would be a Jew and not a Christian. These kinds of criticisms are probably more at home in Jew bashing site. Christ came to free us from the law and not to enslave us to it, this is mentioned in the NT. I should have realized that this was going to be a christian bashing web site and not a place to exchange ideas. In some ways I think that Christians are at fault for not presenting the gospel in a more compassionate way. It is nice to see that some atheist will have an open heart for the people if not the teaching.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JHS8adO3hM
I love that old clip, it’s lovely:).
How come people say things like “but xtians know that Jesus wouldn’t REALLY want them to sell their daughters”.. so they don’t. But otherwhise they would?
And just HOW do they know this, do they have access to some sort of secret extra book to decode the bible? Just how do they know God didn’t REALLY want them to stone everyone else but the godfearing? That it’s ok to eat shrimps or masturbate (because come on, no-one avoids that), as long as you feel guilty or however you do it…
If god popped into existance and descended from the heavens and told everyone “SELL YOUR DAUGHTERS, I COMMAND YOU”.. would our dear christian friends sell them?
@Jabster
I respect the OT but I see Christ as being the maturity or for lack of a better word the “evolution” of the law in that it is a change of life from the inside “spirit” and not from the outside “law”. If that were not so his death would have meant nothing, in other words why come down to save us when we already had rules to save us as long as we strictly followed them. Part of the clip mentions that you cannot touch dead pig. In another part of the bible is says that you should not eat the meat of this animal because it will defile you. Christ comes and “spiritualizes” this by saying “it is not what enters the mouth that defiles a man but what comes out”. No I’m not suggesting in general, like the entire population of atheist in the world, just seems like what this particular site is all about. But to be honest I have learned some things while on this site so I am not saying that this was a negative experience by any means.
Gerardo
IF most of the OT laws are not to be followed why not all? Why does the single line in levitcus cause so much hate for Gays?
As outsiders we see the hypocrisy of the Christian religion. Universal love except for fags.
For us to respect your faith you have to clean house and denounce the fear mongers and hatred spewers. These are evil men out for money & power and do not espouse true Christian ideals. They should be excommunicated and banned from your houses of worship not exalted.
You need to adopt a true respect for life. Allow the terminally ill to die with out pain. Recognize the right to life of a woman over a few cells of tissue that will grow to kill her.
True Christians would be on our side in these issues.
How do you know its not parabolic in nature like perhaps the Garden, the Flood?
You missed all the fun today D, where were you?I hope you didnt let work get in the way of some UF..FUn! lol
Oh, come on Daniel. You can’t seriously claim to be ignorant of the Phelps clan, can you?!
They’d easily sell their daughters, but it’s more economical to train them as lawyers and sue everyone else.
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” – John 3:16
EDITED OUT at the First Council of Nicaea:
“Which makes him the dumbest false idol we’ve ever fussed over.” – John 3:17
OVERHEARD (at said council) by Roman Emperor Constantine I to Eustathius of Antioch:
“Sacrificing himself to himself, to avoid Original Sin, that he created, to save us from his own wrath? You must be joking. Nobody is going to buy this crap.”
ALSO OVERHEARD:
“Is Vishnu still available? Someone send a messenger to Vishnu’s PR people.”
I’m enjoying the fun as I read through all these comments. You guys are too much.
John C- “Maybe there is more to this Christ than you think? Maybe…you only think you know about Him?
There is more, there is a life.”
Yes indeed, a life filled with fear, guilt and worry over unsaved loved one, some of whom may have passed into “eternity”.
Some life.
John C
“That’s not in the offer He makes Robert…the question is, what is?”
Perhaps not, but it comes part and parcel with the “offer”.
Another fantastic revelation from the “Goat Herders Guide to the Universe”, my favorite book written by fearful and ignorant.
Haughty John Haught, advanced theologian, maintains that Christians must always as they always have to cherry pick to make the book updated. He finds that its message is hope and that morality is secondary. He faults us for pointing out the faults as our being perfectionistic, we being fundamentalist atheists! And we overlook those passages where Yahweh exhort ates people to help the poor when.
He faults us naturalists for not allowing for other venues of knowledge when he only assumes that, never showing that- begs the question. And he contemns Dawkins for not replying to theology: what temerity!
I am trying to let these advanced ones tarnish themselves by pointing out their fallacies. For me, they are really no more advanced that Billly Graham or Norman Geisler or any other fundamentalist theologian. So they accept evolution, which they ever contradict by tying teleological God to unplanning Natural Selection, the anti-chance agency of Nature.
The atelic argument denies, in effect, theistic evolution.
John, Paula Kirby @ Dwkins’s site shows up McGrath.
Besides, these two, I am reading material from Gresham College on -line by Keith Ward and Gwen Griffith-Dickson. What obfuscattors!
PZ Myers has the number of the advance theologians with his courtier’s replly!
The problem with that, of course is…that logic can never love you, can never satisfy. You are left hungry, longing.
Right, that’s it: I’m going to write a John C platitude generator. Thirty lines of LISP ought to do it. It probably wouldn’t matter if I posted the output or the code itself. They’d be equally meaningful. Especially since it’s been thirty years since I wrote any LISP – spurious errors I no longer understand would still be indistinguishable from John C’s dickish output.
Stop playing with the tree of life! I felt strongly in my spirit that is was full of life, but has turn grey. Just kidding.
How come you got to change your avatar?
Are you trying to imply something, like maybe you are part of the team in this blog?
Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man. -Thomas Jefferson
John C? I am sorry. You are a nut job. And in real life most people would run far far away from your bullshit
Read back through all your replies and comments, John C. They are obtuse, repetitive and boring. You’re just not interesting. You have brought nothing of worth to this entire discussion. Meeting and talking with you ‘in real life’ must be a painful, one-note experience.
This John C HAS to be a parody
No-one that can type is that stupid
John C, many of us have tried your faith and found it wanting. Instead of the peace and joy it promises, we got double doses of guilt and fear. As long as there is the doctrine of eternal torment as the penalty for not accepting the offer from your “loving” god, there will be fear, because intelligent, sensitive minds will wonder, “am I really saved? Is my faith sincere?” I know, I’ve been there and so have countless others. You offer nothing new here, just essentially the same turn or burn dressed up in softer language.
Robert, but how many Christians really think about Hell anyway that the notion of it for them burns them up? They got that born again experience- their own minds at work- to motivate them. And then how many motivate themselves to do better?
Does the confessional or going before the congregation to acknowledge wrongdoing help or hinder people?
And theictic evolution is no middle ground but just as faith-based as any other creationism, the acceptance of evolution or even of eternal Existence is irrelevant [ Yea, some think that even if eternal, Existence requires Him as the explainer and sustainer. He explains nothing as we ignostics claim, and science gives no reason for Him as sustainer, metaphysics neither.
The price for the daughter- check out what human rights groups can tell about child prostitiution. This is a global shame. Also tying up the vagina or mutilating it, setting widows on fire,and so on are evils with which relgious peope blashpheme humanity.
Religion blashphemes reason. Religion is mythinformation. Reason saves, not that fanatic dead Galilean cult leader!!
Your reply is baffling. The whole POINT of that video is that Christians claim the moral values of the Bible are absolute and necessary for society to function, yet they cherry-pick which ones they like and which they don’t. The fact that fundamentalist Christian families don’t sell their daughters into slavery is proof of the hypocrisy that this clip is pointing out.
John C, this is one of those times when I wonder if your obtuseness is an actual deficiency, or a particularly obnoxious but deliberate tactic to obfuscate the point.
No, no modern people sell their children into slavery. THAT’S THE FUCKING POINT, YOU TWIT.
The bible is filled with grossly immoral rules and behaviors that we throw out all the time. So the claim that it contains the revealed truth of god’s moral code for mankind is not only laughable, but is in fact provably not true even for the people that claim to follow it.
*Foul* 15 IQ points, loss of anyone thinking you are capable of making a rational point.
Daniel’s point is exactly the one you so cogently adduce. Christian families don’t do half the stupid stuff in the bible, so why do they take it so seriously?
It’s the same old pick and choose BS that Christians are always pulling. The reason they don’t sell their daughters into slavery is because society says it’s bad. They ignore that part of the bible, and don’t count it towards its discredit.
However, if you have a pre-existing hatred of gays, you for damn sure cling to Leviticus.
You don’t live by the bible, you live the way you want to, and use the bible selectively to support your way of life. We are telling you that you are being inconsistent, and you either need to man up and put daddy’s little girl on e-bay, or you need to throw out your holy book. Preferably the latter.
The old “That is not my religion” argument… pathetic.
Thankfully, I didn’t know any families that really obeyed the Bible. I am very thankful for that. Unfortunately, I’m sure there were people — especially thousands of years ago — who were quite happy to take God at his Word and sell their daughters into slavery.
An indwellt Christ follower is led by the spirit, not the letter of the law. So its kinda like this…its not so much about the external print (bible) but rather the internal blue…print (His nature) within.
As many as are led by the spirit, these are the sons of God. Romans 8:14
I’m just messin with you guys…get out of the legalistic OT world…no life in it!!
Where is the life? Where can it (He) be found.
Col 1:27
” You don’t live by the bible, you live the way you want to, and use the bible selectively to support your way of life. We are telling you that you are being inconsistent, ”
mark: I know exactly what you are talking about and the selective morality of christians and other holy rollers makes me sick to my stomach.
Full point: Elliott
Markbey-
When you comprehend (believe) the transaction that took place on the cross…you will see that you (who you think you are) is actually a false and dead identity…the question is…who has He made you to be now? What is the true message & offer of Christ??
No one here knows, thats the problem. Thats the mystery.
And yet you still quote no fewer than three Bible verses in this one, short post.
Why do you rely so much on a book you loudly declaim as not worth very much?
The point of the video is to demonstrate that “God” clearly did not state the asinine commands found within the bible. It was written by primitive men.
How on Earth did you miss this?
So it’s Christians’ spirit that leads them to condemn homosexuals.
See, all this time, I thought it was their religion. I never knew that their spirit was full of hate.
” An indwellt Christ follower is led by the spirit, not the letter of the law. So its kinda like this…its not so much about the external print (bible) but rather the internal blue…print (His nature) within. ”
mark: If this is true then why use the bible at all. Why not just use the internal blue print you mentioned to learn about god.
” I’m just messin with you guys…get out of the legalistic OT world…no life in it!! ”
mark: Whats up John C I have a question for you, if what you are saying is true then why would god inspirethe old testament in the place. If the old testament is irrelevant then why does even give us the old testament?
“An indwellt Christ follower is led by the spirit, not the letter of the law.”
…So basically you just get to make stuff up.
You mean this mystical message that exists only inside your own mind?
Yeah, jeez, how could we not know that? That is mysterious, no doubt.
Wow, way to dodge the question. Too bad those horrible passages still remain in the same book, completely unreconcilable.
And you are the only one with this special gnosis! Well, aren’t YOU speeecial!*
*and by “special,” I mean a few beans short of a salad.
Wait, wait, I get it now. John C is an AI that someone developed and is using blogs to refine. Sometimes, as is shown here, his automated response comes out in word-salad format!
Winter…
Its not that the bible is not worth much…its that it is not intended first to be interpreted w/o the illuminating assistance of the Holy Spirit and that our internal, indwelling light of Christ is our main light…bible is external, Christ is internal.
Sheesh John, you’re almost as bad as Alister McGrath for using lots of words without saying anything cogent, credible or coherent…
Actually, thinking about it, you’re not Alister McGrath, are you?
Yeah. I read the Bible, and then I go check facts. If only more people did that…
Do you ahve any appreciation for symbolism in scripture? What does the male represent? What does the female represent?
There is so much more.
They laughed at Him too, scorned, mocked, ridiculed…but He just loves.
Love is a power I tell you.
LOL. If I had the time to write all of John C’s comments AND run this blog, I would be a god.
But that would have been hilarious if I really was John C. Though I find it funnier than such a being as John C really exists. He is a welcome addition to our community — in sort of a court jester kind of way.
“He just loves.”
Unless you lie about how much money you got for selling a field, because he does not tolerate that shit at all. He will smite your ass dead. Or if you don’t have figs out of season. You better believe that’s a smiting.
Out of love, of course.
They also laughed at Bozo the Clown. All new ideas are ridiculed, but that ridicule alone does not validate the idea.
“Love is a power”…PROVE. IT.
“I love you so much I had to smite you.”
Makes perfect sense to me.
It’s not “hate” per se, it’s just really, really tough godly “love”.
I did!
I have no hate, none whatsoever there young Elliott. You presume much, you lump me in with those “religious” folk eh?
Maybe there is more to this Christ than you think? Maybe…you only think you know about Him?
There is more, there is a life.
JC-
So what EXACTLY is you stance on homosexuality? Is this a Christ-centered stance? If so, then how? Please be AS CLEAR AS POSSIBLE. I would like to know if Christ would have condemned homosexual people. If you think so, then why? If you think not then why?
BE fully clear in your response, please!
:)
Y’know, John if there’s “so much more,” then would you kindly either a) explain this more in a way such that our apparently puerile minds can grasp this wonderful more that you prattle on about or b) kindly have a steaming cup of Shut The Hell Up.
@ john c
” There is so much more. ”
mark: Do tell my friend.
They’re not irreconcilable, if you’re willing to make up enough intermediate excuses (no scripture necessary!) to make up for the obvious lack of moral fibre.
I believe they call this “apologetics”.
I’m sure it’d be a better deal to sell her to a private owner, lease her back on a PFI basis, and then subleasing.
Initial capital gains, no maintenance expenditure and an almost guaranteed income for the term of the lease.
Having trouble living in a country run by an uppity negra, there Marcion? Aww, poor guy.
I’m happily with the majority. My taxes wont go up. But hey! It just goes to show the morality of folk like you if they have to consider selling their daughters in order to pay these taxes that they should’ve been paying to begin with.
haha yup
There is no such thing as morality. It’s a product of the fall, the striation from wholeness, from innocence, a tearing away and a feeble attempt at replacing what was lost in the Divine mind. In the spirit there is no duality, no potential for both good & evil, only good.
What we once were…this is the goal.
Are you sure you’re not a scilon, John? I smell thetans.
Aside from the grammar, that’s probably the most insightful comment I’ve seen you write.
Now, if you could only apply that principle to your own presumptions.
So you should be looking for truth in blasphemy then? Come on in, the atheism’s fine!
But most blasphemies do not end up as great truths.
(The original quote from Shakespeare is “great,” BTW, not “new” — but I agree, the most insightful and understandable comment you’ve posted, mostly because it is straight Shakespeare! ;)
Actually Daniel, it was G B Shaw… ;-)
No, its George Bernard Shaw.
Yowzers! Right you both are.
Shaw was better than Shakespeare, anyway…
But since Barry’s a socialist, he’ll just confiscate her and make her freely available for public use, just like his buddy Chavez recently did with the private beaches.
Ty…chill man. Daniel knows me, that I’m just pickin on him a bit. heck…you should see the comment he made pokin’ at me the other day about psychadelic drug use…he’s a big boy, he can take the back and forth. I really like D..I honestly do.
Erm, irony FAIL? ;-)
Hehehe, this is hilarious.
Your reply here:
Ty,chill man. Daniel knows me, that I’m just pickin on him a bit.
is you saying “no, I was being like, totally ironic, man. Yeah, I soooo didn’t miss the point by the width of a small continent.”
It reminds me of that scene in Zoolander (love that film), where the male models are saying the following:
Brint: Or the way Hansel combs his hair?
Meekus: Or like, doesn’t, it’s like, ex-squeeze me, but have you ever heard of styling gel?
Brint: I’m sure Hansel’s heard of styling gel, he’s a male model.
Meekus: Uh, earth to Brint, I was making a joke.
Brint: Uh, Earth to Meekus, duh, okay I knew that!
Meekus: Uh earth to Brint, I’m not so sure you did cuz you were all ‘well I’m sure he’s heard of styling gel’ like you *didn’t* know it was a joke!
Thanks for the laugh JC, you are indeed priceless.
Marcion…
I’ve noticed that many of your posts have political and ethnic points to them, even frustrations. You seem tied to this temporal, seen realm. But we are taught “not to look upon what is seen, for what is seen is temporal, not lasting but what is unseen is eternal, imperishable”. 2 Cor 4:18
When we anchor our lives in the unseen realms of truth we are liberated from the illusion of this (seen) life…this is the meaning of the Lords prayer where He says “thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth (temporal, seen realm) as it is in heaven (unseen, spiritual) realm.
This free’s us from the tyranny of this present, evil age. So, we are in this world but ultimately not of this world.
I’m not critiqueing you or your writings (that would be the pot calling the kettle balck huh…lol) but just wondering if you have ever understood things like this, the kingdom message here and now??
Damn me and my stubborn insistence on something OTHER than incoherent woobabble!
Yeah, that shit can get you in a whole heap of trouble!
I tried letting Christ pour into me. I said “What the hell, I have nothing to lose if he’s right, why not give it a shot?”
Nothing happened.
Maybe it takes more than just willingness for this great beauty and wonderful, timeless, boundless joy to take root. Maybe it takes time.
I waited years. Nothing happened. Ever.
Maybe, instead of considering all of us blind, you should take a look at yourself. It might just be that you, sir, are blinded.
OW. MY KINGDOM.
grow up, you dick.
Yes, they might be willing to do so…
“Might”?
Mmm, magic coconut…
*om nom nom nom*
I was drunk and lost and now am found, especially with my front door key, a half bottle of vodka and 2 cheese and onion pasties.
All hail and praise the magic coconut.
Seriously, if you flip-flopped between you and the inanity of John C that quickly and frequently, I’m sure you’d do yourself a mischief of the cerebral persuasion.
On second thoughts, that might actually help. At least with the John C persona, anyway.
That seems like a fairly incompatible set of ideas — you respect the OT but then discard much of what it says as you don’t agree with it. This is the whole point of the clip. A believer will, most likely, claim that their morality comes from their own version of a holy text yet will then discard parts of that morality tale and at the same time over emphasis others. You have made you own interpretation of what is correct, others will have different interpretations so who is ‘correct’? You can’t use a holy text to prove which bits are correct so where does this knowledge come from — this is the question being asked.
“It is nice to see that some atheist will have an open heart for the people if not the teaching.”
So are you suggesting that in general atheists don’t have an open heart?
…… In some ways I think that Christians are at fault for not presenting the gospel in a more compassionate way …..
mark…. is there a compassionate way to present god drowning thousads of innocent babies
“I respect the OT but I see Christ as being the maturity or for lack of a better word the “evolution” of the law …”
Which still leaves the unanswered question of why do you think this — if it did not come from the Bible where did it come from?
“It is nice to see that *some* [my emphasis] atheist will have an open heart for the people if not the teaching.”
This was your quote. This was not applied to those who post on this site but was a general statement — are you agreeing that this statement above is actually incorrect?
@Reckoner 71…
You may want to leave yourself some backpeddling room there friend. My experience with such high reason worshipers as yourself who possess the degree of contempt that you do…they get humbled. Not so much that they humble themselves, but they get humbled.
You are wandering in the desert of human reasoning, all along not aware of your ever increasing thirst. One day you wake up parched and the Living Water Himself offers you a drink.
Like Paul on the road to Damascus you reply “who are you…Lord”?
Who is He Reck? Who is He really? He is Lord.
I, and I suspect many here, don’t expect “love” from logic.
It’s arrogant of you to suggest that, without a super sky daddy to offer it’s supposed “love” (if one conveniently ignores all the bigotry and hatred espoused by your preferred scripture, and followers of such) that we cannot be satisfied with life without it.
Your observation does, however, beg the question as to why you bother with any other kind of social relationship with any other person, if the “love” of your god is so completely wonderful and fulfilling.
….. You are left hungry, longing. …..
mark …. not if you believe in the mighty and loving power of the magic coconut.
there is much more to than you know john pray to the coconut and all your problems will be solved.
Assertion, assertion, assertion, assertion.
Don’t you have anything of substance?
That question is, for the most part, rhetorical.
I’ll make a deal with you…
You pray for God to bring me a drink, and I’ll eat the humble pie the minute he shows up.
Substance? The substance of spirit is far greater than the substance of physical matter.
Wanna know more Nulli? You gotta get in bro…then you can really…know.
Yes but obvioulsy god truely loved those babies … he just had a different waying of showing it.
Short answer is, it does come from the bible in Christ’s teachings, He changes the old law for our benefit, basically to make it easier to enter into the kingdom.
I was not specific enough in my first comment, I sincerely apologize for this.
…. he just had a different waying of showing it. ……
mark…. which takes us to the question they refused to answer which is what exactly do xtians means when they say god is morality.
also shouldnt they have to explain why thier perfect all knowing god is held to a much lower moral standard than the flawed humans biengs he created.
although i disagree with him i have to give john c an a for effort. that dude is truly xtian warrior. but my questioni to him is how come his god allows him to take so much intellectual punishment.
That’s not in the offer He makes Robert…the question is, what is?
….. He changes the old law for our benefit, basically to make it easier to enter into the kingdom. ……..
mark ….. if god loves all of man equally then how come he makes easier for us to get into heaven then people from old testament.
it isnt mosses fault he was born before the birth of jesus. it sounds to me as if your all moral and knowing and just god is playing favorites.
why is your god playing favorites.
Gerardo…
Here’s what you need to understand. While we love the scriptures, they are not intended to be our (only) guide, but rather the indwelling light of Christ within, the spirit.
Its not so much about the external print (bible), but rather the internal blue…print, His nature within.
We move from an external existance to an internal life, His. Gal 2:20
All the best…
…… Here’s what you need to understand. While we love the scriptures, they are not intended to be our (only) guide, but rather the indwelling light of Christ within, the spirit. ……
mark ….. if what you are saying is true how come this inner guide and indwelling light you call the spirit didnt manifest itself in any of the populations of
china
south america
north america
before eouropeans came with the bible. please answer for me after all your inne guide should give you all of the illumination you need to answer this quesition.
OK, let us, for argument’s sake, grant you that you need your “spirit” thing to understand your scripture.
How does one come to the conclusion that you need such a thing to understand your scripture?
Does it, perhaps, come from that self same scripture that you cannot previously, and by your own argument, understand without the “spirit”?
Or do you just make it up as you go along?
I will have to agree with you on the point of singling out a certain demographic and denounce it so emphatically. Being gay is not the ultimate sin. I have had gay friends before and I have never condemned them or made them feel inferior, there would be no profit in this.
Excommunicate? I strongly disagree with this type of christian behavior also but unfortunately excommunication is easier said than done. But if it needs to come to that then it should be done with compassion so that they can see the error of their way. Your comments show wisdom and not just pure intellect.
Robert…
I dont mean to make light of your assertions, just saying that shame, guilt & condemnation are not part & parcel when we really understand His nature/charcter and heart toward us. We are not required to carry any of that mess around, its not liberating and He has made us Freeeeee!
Respectfully
Sure. Hit me up with your “spirit” thing.
Does it come in a bottle? Will I need to make room in the ‘fridge between the brie and the milk?
John C – Substance of spirit?
Please tell me you’re not a teacher.
-Shrubber
Only you will know when He shows up, cuz He shows up IN you. He calls from within. Whether you respond or not is up to you, but its wise to say “yes Lord”.
Life is full of surprises…
Christ never taught a “sky-God” concept, in fact quite the opposite.
The sky is falling.
How are we supposed to differentiate these voices from, say, schizophrenia?
Is Love schizo Nulli? Or is Love…God?
Does Love speak? Do you want to hear?
Ahh…now we are getting to the real issue.
Say Yes Nulli, Yes! lol
No, didnt say that, you did.
Well, if you don’t have to follow the “letter of the law,” because you are “led by the spirit,” that sounds like you’re relying on an inner moral system which you then assign to god. So, yeah, you are making stuff up, because it isn’t written, it’s created by your feelings. Other Christians might not consider your values to be divinely-inspired, and without any evidence to the contrary aside from your feelings of being “led by the spirit,” they’re more likely to be right.
No, because you can not see the substance of spirit with your natural eye, you naturally assume such a conclusion.
As many as are led by the spirit, these are the sons of God…Romans 8:14
Its not my life I’m living…its Him living His thru me and He is spirit…thats the secret. Gal 2:20
Alright. Well, if it can’t be seen or heard or physically felt except by true believers, if any and every test we could throw at it fails to detect it (neverending excuses for why notwithstanding), then it is infinitely more likely that you are mistaken, and that there is not a “fire-breathing dragon in your garage.”
Your belief and the chemical reactions in your brain alone do not a spirit make. And that’s not a secret. That’s a well-known fact.
Resident, proselytizing “Christian”, John C, brays….
“That’s not in the offer He makes Robert…the question is, what is?”
Oh, please….dont’ play stupid; there is no “question” as far as “John C.” is concerned. You supposedly know “the offer”, and everything else there is to know about “The Truth”, as evidenced in the onslaught of metaphysical, pseudo-spiritual mish-mash that you leave here, practically, daily.
Let’s revisit the subjectivity of “Christianity”.
That woud be—-”the offer” depends on how one interprets the supposed “Word of God”(the bible). But you – you insipid, self-righteous zealot – you insist that you have the “One True Interpretation” of the “Word of God”, and we are to believe this, because…….well, because “John C.” *says so*! Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
“There is a life”
“There is a life”
“There is a life”
“There is a life”
Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!
Those “other people”?…they are “religious” because they quote the bible—but me, John C?…I’m not “religious” when/if *I* quote the bible…..no, sir!!!
::yawn::
Where have I said anything related to ethnicity? Quote it now you stupid race-monger.
Stupid race monger?? I’ll just have to add that one the very long list.
Anyway, I was just referring to the country’s you reference, China, Venezuela, etc…I didnt mean to imply you were racist, relax…be nice would ya?
I was just pointing out the illusion of this life and our admonition not to anchor ourselves to it…thats all Marcion. Was just asking your feedback…but nevermind, sorry.
Hey Boomslang!
Good to hear from you…even if you slam me as always…lol.
Ever consider the possibility that God loves you enough to speak a penetrating word of light, a word of truth even here in this dark bastion of unbelief?
Maybe this (my presence) is actually a good thing? Maybe what you have heard will come to mind some day when you most need it.
All the best Boomslang
John C., replies….”Hey Boomslang! Good to hear from you…even if you slam me as always…”
Dear John C.,
Your incessant proselytizing is 100% worthy of “slam”, IMO, as again, you have no intention of granting individuals their *individuality*, including their own experiences(or in the non-theist’s case, lack of). Yes, you’ve made it crystal clear, at least to me, that you have zero intention of entertaining any view that opposes your own. We’ve been over and over and over it, but you ignore my words. When you do something differently, I’ll respond *differently*.
John C., attempts….”Ever consider the possibility that God loves you enough to speak a penetrating word of light, a word of truth even here in this dark bastion of unbelief?”
Yes, I’ve considered it, thanks. And here, *again*, is what I’ve come up with: If there is a “God” and it “loves” me – as you and your religious constituents insist it does(yes, “religious”) – then IT, being “God”, and all, can tell me itself. In other words, I highly, highly doubt that a “God” needs lowly humanoids, and/or, ancient manuscripts to get its Will” met, including, if said being wants to tell me something. If the biblegod that you worship is the One True “God”, and further, it has all the attributes that your “Holy Book” says it does, then simply “telling me” something should be no problem, whatsoever, for this “God”. Again, I cannot/will not believe on “faith”, and if your biblegod exists, it knows this. Stop blaming people, and question your “God”.
John C…..”Maybe this (my presence) is actually a good thing? Maybe what you have heard will come to mind some day when you most need it.”
What I’ve “heard”? You cannot be serious. I’ve “heard”, literally, thousands upon thousands of differing versions of the “One” supposed “Truth”. If you can explain to me(using some sort of objective evidence) how you are exempt from human error, while all those whose versions conflict with your “there is a life” version, then perhaps I’ll think about taking you seriously.
Religion is perverted, twisted but spirituality (Christ’s) true offer is beautiful and so is He.
I do not consider myself “part of the Atheist team” since I live from an entirely different internal life source, but I do very much care for each of you, particularly the ones who hold me in such contempt.
Love is just like that Matter man.
There were two trees, there still are.
John C….”Religion is perverted, twisted but spirituality (Christ’s) true offer is beautiful and so is He.”
::yawn::
So, yet another (failed) attempt by resident, proselytizing “Christian”, John C., at trying to distinguish *his* interpretation of scripture(calling it, “spirituality”), from the interpretations of those wrong-minded “Christians”(calling it, “religion”). It’s all “interpretation”, John C. Revealed “Truths”, such as the bible, are dependent upon interpretation. You, coming along and simply labeling your subjective reading of scripture a “true offer”, does nothing to make your case, nor substantiate your fantastic, superstitious claims.
You are no different than the ones you warn us against—-you have, a) your personal belief that dead-ends at “I believe”(just like the “religious” do), and you have b) your little biblical quotes that you cherry-pick and extol(just like the “religious” do)
Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I have given you much more, but you just read it as opposed to hearing it. When it comes to Truth, we “hear” Him with our heart (inner man), not our head.
Open your true you Boomslang, then you will truly be hearing and not just reading.
….. Open your true you Boomslang, then you will truly be hearing and not just reading ……
mark…. john c you are priceless. has it ever occured to you that maybe god if there is one dosent want everyone to beleive in the same way as you do.
also johnny c your religious twaddle would make a lot more since if we didnt have from over thirty thousand of them to choose from.
to me it really dosent make much sense for an all powerful xtian god to even allow the concept of thirty thousand other religions to exist. until someone can provide a rational answer for that you are doing nothing more than saying goddidit.
and without a shred of evidence other than john c’s emotions.
John C: “…..but you just read it as opposed to hearing it.”
Very true, I just “read it”, as I cannot “hear” letters, nor the printed word—no one can. On the other hand, I *have* read and considered every word of yours(on the posts I’ve responded to). I reject what you offer for the reasons I’ve given countless times.
The above-quoted is simply more metaphorical religio-jibberish from you, in an attempt to tell those who don’t accept your religious philosophy that they are “wrong”, and/or, lacking in some way. For just one example, you claim(ed) that nonbelievers “live outside” of “love”. The nerve of you.
So, we can add “judgmental” to your long list of “Christ-like” attributes. Praise “God”.
C’mon troutman, you can be more original than that, nutjob is so old…lol
Love is kinda nutty tho’
Its the fact that he’s a communista that bothers me, not his race. And yes, I realize that Bush and Paulson started the communism a few months ago. Its a conspiracy backed by both parties.
Right, cuz you’d never sell them, you’d just murder them.
Communist? Hardly. The current government of Germany is to the left Obama. He’s to the left of Bush, yes, but he’s very much a centrist. Probably towards the center-right.
It’s amazing how many people on the intertubes see such a hard demarcation between absolute libertarianism and communism with no middle ground at all.
Excuse me, but……WTF?
I also plead guilty: on many, many occasions.
Also check out Jeff Bridges in The Contender. Inspiring.
It was a very poorly done abortion shot.
Feel free to ignore Marcion. I’ve yet to see him/her say anything intelligent.
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