There is a famous story in the Bible where God asks Abraham to kill and sacrifice his only son to him (see Genesis 22). If God asked me to do such a thing, I’d tell him to get lost. But Abraham was obedient. He got the wood together for a sacrifice and journeyed three day to the place where God asked him to sacrifice his son.
The story continues:
When they came to the place of which God had told him, Abraham built the altar there and laid the wood in order and bound Isaac his son and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. Then Abraham reached out his hand and took the knife to slaughter his son.
But the angel of the Lord called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!” And he said, “Here am I.” He said, “Do not lay your hand on the boy or do anything to him, for now I know that you fear God, seeing you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me.” (Gen. 22:9-12, ESV)
Abraham is praised for his willingness to kill his son. I don’t see what’s all that great about being willing to kill your son when voices in your head request such a thing. But I’m not a Christian.
I say all of this to put a comment in context from John Charles:
Today I decided to test my wife’s loyalty to me by asking her to slit our infant son’s throat.
She trussed him up and drew the knife, but at the last minute I told her, “Just kidding!”
We hugged afterward and rejoiced in our perfectly Biblical sense of morality.
We all agree that would be absurd — yet I don’t see how that is any less absurd than God asking someone to kill their child in a test of loyalty. As I’ve said before, if that God exists, he would be an evil God.
Debbie: It must be such a rewarding life making others’ lives... 
John C: Anti-no, “I” dont have any credibility either but the difference is that “I”m not... 
Custador: “Matt and Mark record “My God, My God, Why hast Thou forsaken me?”; John, “It is finished”; and Luke,... 
Daniel Florien: When you have indigestion when you’re reading it, you know it’s true! 
Mary Lynne: Hmm – I wonder what a “true fairy tale” would be. Is that like jumbo... 
Antiutopia: John C — Christ himself doesn’t have any credibility with these ignorant morons — do you... 
Uzza: Cool story. It reminds me of Confucius, meeting the mad hermit of Chu, who told him it was... 
101 Comments
Maybe not a husband checking a wife’s loyalty but certainly the sort of thing a dictator or mafia boss might come up with.
… There is an interesting dissonance between what Christians read in the bible and what they acknowledge as “moral”. …..
mark …… exactly which is why i am trying to get a holy roller to answer why they believe god is god. it surely dosent come from the bible.
funny how a perfect all knowing bieng is held to a lower moral standard than me.
Throughout the bible there’s the theme of God requiring his people to worship only him and obey all of his laws–no questions asked. Failure to do so results in misery and suffering in this lifetime, plus eternal torment in hell. I like to think of this concept in terms of an abusive relationship. Consider this:
Abusive husband: Honey, I love you–you mean everything to me–but if you so much as look at another man or disobey me in any way, I will beat you to a bloody pulp.
Abused wife: I’m trying as hard as I can to do what you want, but it’s so hard to know how to please you and do as you ask when I’m having so much trouble figuring out what you really want from me.
Abusive husband: It doesn’t matter. If you don’t know what I really want, it just means that you don’t love me enough and that you’re not trying hard enough to please me. So even if you get it wrong, I’m still going to beat the crap out of you.
There’s also the sticky question of what an omniscient being is doing testing anything. By definition, it would know the answer before the test is performed.
The second Temple Judeans were aware of the problem, and did a gloss on the story that turns it into another version of Job. YHWH is not testing Abraham for his own knowledge, but to prove Abraham’s loyalty to the prosecuting attorney, Satan. They also interpreted it so that Isaac was aware and willing to be sacrificed, which made it … I can’t say “better,” but maybe less horrifying.
Sometimes God isn’t so full of mercy. Just read the story in the Book of Judges 11,30 – 40.
If you’ll forgive my picking nits, the story of Abraham is portrayed as a command/test given by God to Abraham, and the story of Jephthah is instigated by a vow he made to God without God’s prompting. I realize your comment was likely tongue-in-cheek, but there’s the distinction, FWIW. Which may not be much.
ummmm . . . why the interplay between yhwh and satan? yhwh’s freakin’ omnipotent, and satan is . . . well, a disobedient servant at best. if the hotel maid doesn’t clean the toilets, you fire her, you don’t challenge her to a duel for all eternity.
There is an interesting dissonance between what Christians read in the bible and what they acknowledge as “moral”. If they hear a news story of a woman claiming God told her to kill her children, they immediately conclude (along with the rest of us) that she’s crazy. But then this story of Abraham makes perfect sense to them.
I don’t know any Christian that tolerates racism (mind you I don’t live in the US), but bible portrays and condones perhaps the most sectarian society possible. The Israelites will happily commit genocide on every other culture around, just based on the fact that they have different ancestors or live on the other side of a muddy river.
Christians will have no problem reading in the bible about behaviour that would shock and disgust them if they were confronted by it in real life.
Sometimes God isn’t so full of mercy. Just read the story in the Book of Judges 11,30 – 40.
Yup, Jephthah was clearly a man of more faith than Abraham, since he carried through with his sacrifice.
How are we to know that Abraham was “mentally ill”? Just because by contemporary ethics and legality, we cannot abide someone saying “God told me to kill”? Do we say that a person is mentally ill when the imaginary sky friend tells them to give their money to the poor or go live with the poor in Calcutta?
(well, I might, but that’s just me) At any rate, what’s the division between being crazy and being divinely inspired (assuming such an entity exists)?
@Jeremy: I guess it’s just another helping of selective perception in order to reduce the ridiculous amount of cognitive dissonance each and every religion (no, I do not possess any evidence, and no, I don’t even know all religions. I just claim something). It’s the fuel than religion relies on. Too much cognitive dissonance, and the followers would start asking too many inconvenient questions to their cult leaders and might/will eventually turn into agnostics (or worse :D )
@topic: Again assuming that there would be any way to tell that a) god(s) existed, that they b) are somehow responsible for that mess the universe presents itself, and c) that they are so profoundly deluded that they think that this mess is actually good, I would do something along this line:
Point is, I would rather defy any god’s will which obviously and fundamentally violates my moral principles, maybe even when threatened with eternal punishment. Because I cannot figure how that would feel, but I have a pretty clear idea on how it would feel to kill your own child. I can’t think of any but the most petty situations where blind obedience has resulted in something only remotely good. And killing my child most certainly is no ‘petty situation’!
I hope no christian husband will test their wife’s loyalty using this method. If there is an accident, he will have problem explaining to the judge what happened and might end up in a nutty hospital if not prison.
God’s voice in your head telling you to kill someone is called schizophrenia. Abraham was not chosen by god, he was mentally ill.
I see I’ve been Twitter’d, gee thx D…i’m honored.
I’m here for you guys (and gals) when you are no longer content to wander in the desert of human reasoning…
When you really, really want to know, then you will.
There is more, there is a life.
This is one of the stories that was glorified by everyone when I was a Christian. I always thought it was horrible. My bible as a child had an illustration of an insane looking Abraham weilding a knife over a terrified Isaac. *shudder* Looking back, it’s probably one of the first times I questioned god/Christianity.
This story in the bible, right off the bat, shows the reader that the Judeo-Christian God is an impossibility. The logic is fairly simple:
A) Asking another to kill on your behalf is known as an accomplice to murder, or in another words “sin”.
B) The Judeo-Christian God claims to be without “sin”.
C) This story is evidence that the Judeo-Christian God was an accomplice to attempted murder, i.e. “sin”. Therefore, this God can no longer exist as described in the bible. Either he doesn’t exist, or the biblical writers misquoted him.
Ok, so the gigs up…time for you boys (and girls) to love God, to give up this charade of unbelief, this independence.
Time to eat from the fruit of a different tree, a living tree!
I know it’s all an act…you really do want to know Pappa, you really do want to know Love.
So take a number, get in line…time for a cool change!
Love is a power I tell you!!
Love to all.
“I’m here for you guys (and gals) when you are no longer content to wander in the desert of human reasoning…”
I won’t deny you the right to live in this world, the right to vote, the right to be protected, to love and protect your family, even the right to be percecuted, you human, I am for your right to humanity, regardless, even for nutty cases.
Eat, if you are hungry, drink, if you are thirsty, unless your indulgences of eating and drinking has brought about unspeakable things, donate to the poor around you if you have extra, never dispising a life in humanity.
Want to know more?
Would You Slay Your Son For God?
No, but throw in a pocket fisherman and I’ll think about it.
The fool has said in his heart there is no God. Who’s the fool now Rog? Get smart…love God.
“I see I’ve been Twitter’d, gee thx D…i’m honored. ”
Of myself, the twitter thing might be, well, maybe, you know, you are mature, my apology to you if you are offended, if you include me in your honor of twitter thing.
I remember this story in Sunday school when I was a child …I also remember having nightmares about it. It was taught as some wonderful, moral lesson.
Abraham would be serving a long prison term if he tried this today in the United States.
Re. John/Jester being renamed.
‘Zat true Daniel?
‘Cause if so, that’s undeserved.
Jesters are supposed to be funny. John’s just a bit … maudlin? Sad? Something like that anyway.
Perhaps “The Wilderness in Voice” might be more apropos?
Re. Abraham:
I always wondered whether God wasn’t just testing Abraham’s intelligence.
God: Abraham–climb this mountain, get your kid to drag along some firewood, and when you get to the top, cut his throat and burn his body.
Abraham: Yassuh, boss. Any particular type of wood?
God: What? Are you seriously saying you’d … You’d kill your own kid … just because a Mysterious friggin’ Voice told you to? Are you nuts? Forget the sacrifice, Abe. Just go back down the mountain and work on your gullibility, okay?
Abe: But … But it was YOU saying it!
God: First off, you didn’t exactly ask for ID, secondly, why would that make a difference? Haven’t you heard my Commandments? I refer you specifically to the one about “not kill”-ing, right? I mean, you were actually ready to actually kill your actual flesh-and-blood son …
Mutters to self: I don’t know–you try and build a better ape, something with a little common sense, moral fibre, some courage, and only a couple of dozen million years later it wants to kill its own kids just ’cause a well-modulated voice that sounds a bit like Chuck Heston croaks into its shell-like bloody ear.
Abe: Sorry, man … It just seemed like something you’d ask me to do.
{long pause}
God: Look, forget it, okay–Just go home. Leave me alone for a while, all right?
Abe: But I’ve got this big pile of firewood … Can’t I maybe just cut one of his legs off?
God: No! Dammit–haven’t you been listening?
Abe: Uh, yes. I have. Erm … That’s kind of why …
God: Shut up.
Abe: Yessir.
God: Just shut the hell up. O Me, I’m depressed.
Still reading the Bible as if it were written yesterday, I see.
Let’s rewind a lot, to almost 2000 b.c., and remember that Abraham didn’t live in a culture as “enlightened” as our own. See, back in those days, child sacrifice was expected. So what God asked of Abraham wasn’t out of the blue or out of line with contemporary morality. But stopping Abraham–that was the revolutionary part.
Now, fast forward just a little bit to the time of Moses, around 1400 b.c. That’s when we read Leviticus 18:21, where sacrificing children to Molech is forbidden; it profanes the name of the Lord and the penalty for it is death (Lev 20:2).
So, not only does God stay Abraham’s hand in sacrificing Isaac, he also writes into the Law that child sacrifice is forbidden and the penalty for it is death. Again, all of this is revolutionary for the time that we’re living in because sacrificing the first born was expected.
You can’t judge what Abraham did (or what God asked him to do) by modern standards. You have to understand what time he was living in, and what the expectations of his culture were.
For anyone who wants to bring up Jephthah, answer this conundrum: where does the text actually say that she was sacrificed? It doesn’t make much sense, considering that she mourned not her life but her virginity (Jdgs 11:38). Either her priorities are all out of whack, or she was a dedicated temple virgin. The text of a very graphic book is intentionally unclear in this spot, so perhaps there’s more going on than at first blush.
A god who would ask any human to kill another is evil and unworthy of obedience or worship.
‘Love Me … Enough to Kill for Me?’ Stepbrother Says Peterson Asked
How God-like of him.
Just checking to see if my new avatar is working!!
I guess not…ha
Dad: God told me to kill my son
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2009/02/12/Dad_God_told_me_to_kill_my_son/UPI-71281234475937/
NEVER!!
Take a child growing up in a Christian (or Muslim/Jewish for that matter) household who has listened to this story as one of the first stories that child has heard, in fact the child has learned to speak by listening to these stories.
The kid knows that their parents will do anything that God calls them to do. This story immediately destroys the relationship between child and parent. The child is taught to believe that his/her parents are such very, very good people in their dedication to God.
They also know that their parent will always ultimately put God and His “Will” above the child. In a sense the child can then never fully trust his/her own parents. A sad state of affairs and indeed an evil God.
Look it This way, If Abraham was Willing to give His only beloved son Isaac, as an obedience to God, God gave his only Son Jesus. John 3:16
Isaac, replaced by the Lamb, Jesus the Lamb of God
Same Mountain rage where Abraham was suppose to give Isaac are geographical same with were Jesus was Crusified
Is this Coincidence?
We tend to remove God from His place, because we just can not please Him? We create all possible argument to deny Him? We even learn how to leave a Godless life! We would rather go to Hell than Worship God!
Why? We can not please God! and We know it! Though we try to leave a Godless life, we still have Moral in us, Conscience telling us what is write and wrong!
If the our conscience is right, If God is there… where would you stand once you face Him?
I have Chosen Jesus, for when I face God, I am us guilty as pinocchio :D But Jesus promised through Him alone I will be guiltless
Werther you believe God or Not? Ask yourself IF and only IF, God is there, were is your destination?
You are so right saying “I feel like I’ve done he best … and that is all that matters to me” yet it is so wrong I am afraid.
“We do not create truth, we find truth”. These are words which disturbed me when I was on the road to Atheism and lead me in another direction(Giving all to Christ).
What-God-will-Do-this-or-that (Horrible things)..? Was my hiding zone! By thinking of “sick and twisted entity, an abomination” God I felt comfortable living my life without God.
And I had the same attitude ” I have done the best I could” If there is God! No! We can not and will not be able to please Him, We Lie,We will Lie, We go against our conscience, and trust me we will still do that?
How many lie do you have to tell to be a lier? How many people you have to kill to be a killer?
Oh, I do more good than bad! Is that it!? Adolf Hilter could and possibly did that to Germany! If A Hilter did more good would that eliminate him as a Horrible being?
We are not condemned for what we did right? but what we did wrong. If that is so, Where will you stand?
The world had a begining,therefore has the end. Is that it? I am randomly here with no purpose, evolved to eat,grow, fight and multiply to survive… Game over? No, no matter how hard I tried to think that was so, I know we are here for a higher reason( That is why we love DRAMA :D(Fights,Football,Movies,Fun) ) Something more, something bigger…
If there is God, We will face Him! No matter how we think of Him. I am a horrible person! Not a religious type for they are worst! I am simply a person who accepts Jesus Christ, For He promised, In him alone I can face God without condemnation!
In addition, Weigh both side of anything you learn or find! For and Against. Conclude for yourself. I chose Jesus Christ, You do not have to do the same as you when a Kid dragged around(in Church) I hated that too :D
Yet do not let hate(or other feelings) guard you. Don’t create Truth, Find Truth!
I am sad to say this, but my argument on April 5th and 6th are all deleted?
If what you write was right, then your argument falls!
Since you deleted it, It leave me with no option than to imagine that, this blog is truly Unreasonable faith, for Unreasonable mind?
Do not create truth, Find truth. And let other find it for themselves too!
Be honest, don’t delete comment against what you wrote! It is simply Unreasonable Decision.
You know, morality aside, the nature of this story is something that tells me that it might be based on a true event and not entirely fictional. This sounds like the kind of thing that someone suffering from Schizophrenia might do.
Hearing voices that tell someone to do something evil to their children common. I myself had an aunt who heard voices telling her that her son was Satan, and threw a pot of boiling water on him. (Fortunately he was not seriously harmed and her children were given to other family members). It’s pretty conceivable to me that a man hearing voices in his head and had something occur that was just like this.
There will never be proof that this actual event occurred, of course. It just kinda rings of truth to me.
You fool. Human reasoning has done quite fine by me (and I assume a number of us here who don’t post in psychotic spiritbabble).
John, when we enter our final years and our minds are corroded and we can’t think logically or rationally anymore… I’m we’ll be happy to believe whatever you say, as well as anyone else who comes into our nursing home.
Or you have no clue what you’re talking about. I mean that’s the other possibility right?
“Time to eat from the fruit of a different tree, a living tree!”
A living tree you say — do you think most of the trees we see around us are dead?
This is a joke, right … Jester?
My John C detector went off on the first line, then I looked at the name, and lo and behold, it was.
Time to eat from the fruit of a different tree
Would taht be teh Tree of Life (Gen 3:22-24], which Yahweh/Elohim is so anxious for us not to find? Let’s storm Eden, and take back the Tree of Life!
Call to Arms!
Yes, the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good & evil is dead, is separate from the life of God. Christ is the tree of life there Jabs.
There were two trees in the garden…there still are today.
… There is an interesting dissonance between what Christians read in the bible and what they acknowledge as “moral”. …..
mark …… exactly which is why i am trying to get a holy roller to answer why they believe god is good. it surely dosent come from the bible.
funny how a perfect all knowing bieng is held to a lower moral standard than me.
sorry typo
So trees are dead then. Just more believer’s twaddle — you should get together with John C it would be a real hoot.
So that’s why god put it in the garden of Eden in the first place. Now it all just makes so much more sense to me. Guess I’ll have to leave this blog (and Atheism, for that matter) and have a long talk with my local priest on how to get back onto the winning team…
Man, this omni-omni god in the bible just rocks!
Coming from you, that’s pretty rich.
@John C
Or…..you could try and prove me wrong, instead of acting like your usual d bag arrogant self =)
Pot, I’d love to introduce you to the kettle.
Hmm…where have I heard this John C name before? Sounds familiar…lol.
Your fearless leader gave me a new forum name this morning…dont you recognize your ol’ buddy??
Ah, that explains the tomfoolery. Nice one, CJ, I really did think you were a delusional twaddle-monger who can’t talk without childish obtuse metaphor.
You certainly had me going! I’m going to have to award you Poe Of The Week!
:-)
What would you do for a Klondike bar?
So a tactical strike on the Holiday Inn is out of line? Is that what you’re saying? ‘Cause I’ve already paid the mercenaries half their fee, and plunder from the hotel safe was supposed to account for the rest.
What god?
You’re still the reigning champ, John C. You haven’t YET provided one tiny scrap of evidence or proof of the existence of your imaginary sky friend. All you’ve presented is solipsistic nonsense. You claim that religion is “something inside” yet at every chance, you run straight back to a collection of myths collected by Bronze Age goatherders.
How does one say things in one’s heart? Do you need to cut it out and speak into the aorta?
Hah!
http://www.tshirthell.com/search.php?search=klondike&Submit.x=0&Submit.y=0&Submit=Submit
I’ve read analyses of the story that suggest it (like much of Genesis) is actually a “Just So” story that isn’t supposed to be interpreted literally at all. It’s the answer to the question “Why don’t we perform ritual sacrifice of our children to our god like our neighbors do?”
If parts of the bible are not to be interpretted literally, how should we discern which parts are literal and which are metaphorical? Doesn’t that call in to question the literal truth of everything in the bible, like say for instance, the divinity of jesus?
I think it seems comforing to moderate christians to say the bible isn’t entirely literal, but that approach calls in to question the very foundation of their religion, and leaves very little else on which to base it.
Third time lucky? ;-)
I have the condition that I’ll only listen to them as long as they a) bring a fruit basket, and b) mop up my drool and click their fingers in front of my eyes to help me focus.
Oh come’on D…our later years (im 45) will be robust, vibrant years full of life!
Dont you remember from your believer days?
He saves the best wine for last! lol
So Marvin the Paranoid Android is Abraham’s god?
Wow, I didn’t know that!
P.S. Thanks for the chuckle. ;-)
John C has chosen to temporarily rename himself based on this comment of mine.
Also, I like your point about God testing Abraham’s intelligence. Personally I wouldn’t want the kind of loyalty where someone would kill their son because I asked. Nor could they be all that intelligent if they would go along with something like that.
This is bullshit of the highest order.
1. The whole “thou shalt not kill” law allegedly came from god. If god made this request it was a request to violate his own law. (Oh the irony of a god endorsed death penalty for child sacrifice.)
2. Is god all powerful or not? Because surely an all powerful god could change the child sacrifice laws without asking for a child sacrifice.
3. Does got love us or not? Because asking someone TO KILL THEIR CHILD in some kind of loyalty test isn’t an act of love, it’s terrorism.
Even if there was evidence for this god’s existence I don’t see how any caring human could worship him.
Yeah! Amen, brother!
Similarly, we can’t just what the Nazi’s did by OUR culture. We have to judge by their culture. When you understand all that, it makes complete sense. And slavery? Oh please. It wasn’t a big deal back then. Crusades? God told them to kill each other. It was part of their culture.
People today just don’t understand. Thanks for setting the record straight, Cory.
Amazing. We have all these lovely concerned christians telling us that their bible is a “living” document of how we are supposed to live our lives today, and then we get the old apologist switcheroo of “things were different way back then”.
Nice work if you can get it.
Apparently, according to Abraham’s actions, it was completely within his god’s M.O. to demand human sacrifice. Not just passively ignore or accept, but to actively demand. And he went along with it completely unquestioningly.
It doesn’t matter if Abraham thought that his god would raise Isaac from the dead, nor does it doesn’t matter if the “expectations of the culture” accepted this kind of brutality as the norm, Abraham was still content with the idea that his god actively demanded human sacrifice, and christian scripture reflects this.
But then, later on, it’s just not cricket for Moses’ lot?
Hmm.
Oddly enough, even with Holding’s questions (you really went there, huh?) the fact that there isn’t an additional line in scripture to say “And, lo, he cooked her and gave thanks for butchering those other tribes.” hasn’t ever seemed to bother apologists from filling in the blanks when it suited their purposes.
In fact, Holding on the (apparent) contradiction of the last words of Jesus is a prime example of exactly this.
But I suppose it’s one rule for the apologists, and one for the rest of us because we don’t have a vested interest in trying to make it fit by any means necessary.
Frankly I’m not surprised by Jephthah’s daughter’s actions. If she knew her wingnut father was determined to kill her for his god, and she’d never been laid, I’m sure a few days in the woods getting her end away with a bunch of the local randy goat herders would be a something of a small consolation for being barbecued for her father’s “loving god”.
and remember that Abraham didn’t live in a culture as “enlightened” as our own. See, back in those days,…
I see. And Yahweh, being omnipotent, felt it necessary to respect and accomodate the baby-sacrificing culture of the time rather than snapping his fingers and making the imperfect world (which he had created) perfect.
Cory Tucholski: “Let’s rewind a lot, to almost 2000 b.c., and remember that Abraham didn’t live in a culture as “enlightened” as our own. … But stopping Abraham–that was the revolutionary part.”
Let’s fast-forward to the early Christian era. Why do the early Christians so admire Abraham? Because he “…offered up his only begotten son…” (Hebrews 11:17), because he “…offered Isaac his son upon the altar…” (James 2:21). Not because he recognized the “revolutionary” notion that child sacrifice was abhorrent to God.
Cory Tucholski: “You can’t judge what Abraham did (or what God asked him to do) by modern standards.”
OK, suppose for the sake of argument I grant that. Am I now permitted to complain when modern Christians want to condemn me using those ancient, less-enlightened standards of piety?
“For anyone who wants to bring up Jephthah, answer this conundrum: where does the text actually say that she was sacrificed?”
It says he performed his vow. And his vow was not to make her be a virgin forever, it was to burn her alive.
“It doesn’t make much sense, considering that she mourned not her life but her virginity”
As if there is a difference? It doesn’t matter what culture you look at (as long as it isn’t Marcionite or some other early Christian heresy), dying a virgin is considered much worse than merely dying, so it makes sense why she mourned her virginity rather than the FACT that she was about to be burned alive.
Mr Tucholski, you are correct that the books of the Bible ought to be read in context, the context of their ancient authors. Certainly the story of “the binding of Isaac” as it’s generally known, probably served as a narrative explication of a change in sacrificial procedure. The story of Cain & Abel probably served a similar purpose, though it reflects an earlier change of practice.
However, it is nowhere near true that child sacrifice was “expected” in the Near East. Retainer sacrifice (i.e. the deaths of a ruler’s servants at the time of his death) sometimes occurred, however, it was not universal, and in some cases appears to have been only ceremonially done. Child sacrifice also happened in some Phoenician communities, however, elsewhere in the Near East it was specifically prohibited in law codes going back centuries. So this prohibition is not unique to Genesis, and certainly not revolutionary … yes, even in the context of mid-last-millennium BCE Levant.
Having said that, for the modern reader there remains the issue of the relevance of these stories. They served a purpose which, to be honest, is no longer relevant for a Christian, since Christians no longer perform any of the types of sacrifices in question. That Abraham had been so obedient as to be willing to sacrifice his own son, is not — in fact — a valid moral lesson for any Christian to learn. The idea that this willingness on his part made him “righteous,” holds no value to anyone now living.
So what the hell is it still doing in people’s Bibles? Why are pastors around the world still giving sermons about how great it was that Abraham was willing to kill his own son? The truth is that it is those pastors who are taking the tale of “the binding of Isaac” out of context, and attempting to make it a life-lesson for modern Christians, when in fact it is nothing of the sort. It served its purpose — in the context in which it was written — back in ancient times, and is no longer needed.
This is the case with a great deal of the rest of the Bible, especially the Old Testament. There’s a great deal of cultural-explicative narrative within it, which had value to its readers in their own time, but which became irrelevant long ago. The entire book of Exodus, e.g., is a metaphorical treatise showing that the nation of the Hebrews no longer had any ties to Egypt (which in the late 2nd millennium BCE dominated the Levant politically, except while it was at war with the empire of Hattusas). The stories of the judges and the monarchs (David, Solomon, etc.) are likewise narratives meant to engender a sense of unity among the Hebrew tribes; in fact the idea of the 12 tribes of Israel was something of a “retcon” meant to show that, in spite of their differences, they had a common origin.
None of it has any relevance to anyone now living. Not one word of it offers any moral lesson to anyone that’s worth learning. Yet modern Christians keep assuming that’s what these stories are. Modern Christians would be better off leaving these tales as “heritage documents” rather than as providing them examples of proper and righteous living for all time.
1.. on the story of Abraham, I realize the following,
Many christian have different interpretations, but what is striking is that there are no witnesses to the story, Who was even with Abraham and Issac when this happened. So we don’t even have an independent witness, in the story to confirm what happened.
But… then what god is left to worship?
:)
(In my Dana Carvy Church Lady Voice)
Hmmmmm….Could it be……..NOBODY!
No, its like this. These are internal root systems. When we eat (live from) the tree of the knowledge of good & evil we are living from the Self and so we know what we know, have what we are. When we eat (live from) the tree of the life we live from Him within, His nourishing life. Its a choice.
The fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good & evil is death meaning separation, outside of God. On the other hand, Christ IS the tree of life…within.
You only think you know about these things, but since you are content to know what you know, then that is all you…know.
The root, the stem of Jesse…now there is an anicent tree.
Or in other words:
Ph’nglui mglw’nafh Cthulhu R’lyeh wgah’nagl fhtagn.
I’m just jokin’ Robotz…and I’m really pretty kind considering all the hostility and name calling I endure here dont you think?
Comments like “Therefore, this God can no longer exist as described in the bible”…is kinda askin for it dont ya think?
I mean seriously, calling someone a “D-bag”, now that’s the proberbial high road huh?
Dont worry, I still love ya man!
You dont have to go far…where is this kingdom of God anyway Reg?? Do ya know? Do ya want to?
I would. I mean, I consider it a positive thing to give to charity, and a great thing to devote oneself to a life of service.
But if an audible voice told me to do it? No thanks, I’ve got this appointment with a mental health professional to keep…
Exactly. There is a big difference between a voice telling you to help people in need and a voice telling you to murder your son.
Also, why did god wait so long to stop people sacrificing their kids at the drop of a hat? Why didn’t he just make people so they didn’t do that right from the start or make the law clear from the beginning? Why did he hate all the poor children sacrificed while he was getting around to telling people not to do it?
Is it in Norway?
Yeah, except that Abraham is praised for being willing to kill his son. Whatever the test was, the authors of the Bible clearly think he passed.
Bill, those devoted to theology as an academic pursuit have divided the Bible into disparate parts based on tone and content, which I think is what you’re getting at. Of course, not every word in the books is relevant to the category, but it’s a useful starting point for classifying.
Someone smarter than I please feel free to correct me, but I think it breaks down as follows:
In the OT, there’s Law (first 5/Torah), Wisdom (Proverbs/Ecclesiastes/Job), Poetry (Psalms/Song of Songs), History (Joshua, 1&2 Kings, 1&2 Judges, 1&2 Samuel), Prophecy, etc. In the NT, there are the Gospels, History (Acts), Letters (which include some doctrine, some rebuke, some encouragement, some sh*t-shooting), and Revelation, which, uh… that’s poetry of some sort, I guess.
It’s important to recognize the context of the books you’re reading, I think, before pointing out how ludicrous something contained therein is. Try testing out “Your hair is like goats descending from Gilead” or “Your breasts are like two fawns browsing among lilies” on your wives… the Bible uses simile, metaphor, etc, all over. If you read those books within their context, I think it’s sometimes obvious which of these categories a passage falls under. Sometimes, no. That’s where commentaries are useful, I suppose.
I’m not trying to argue, just clarify.
oops… mea culpa, folks: my editing went awry. That should have read “1&2 Chronicles, Judges” under history.
Must be careful not to be adding things to the Bible, lest I start rebuking someone on the authority of the 23rd Book of Phil and Tommy or something. Slippery slope, you know.
I smile, linking those books to the Song Of Solomon.
Thanks for that! Very helpful.
However, it does lead me to ask as to how you “know” Proverbs/Ecclesiastes/Job is supposed to be interpreted as “wisdom” and Joshua, 1&2 Kings, 1&2 Judges, 1&2 Samuel as “history”.
I’m guessing that you have Super-Special Cliff’s Notes that are somehow unavailable to the rest of us.
Mea culpa. I should have asked “how ‘one’ “knows”…” etc.
[nullifidian wrote:]Thanks for that! Very helpful.
However, it does lead me to ask as to how you “know” Proverbs/Ecclesiastes/Job is supposed to be interpreted as “wisdom” and Joshua, 1&2 Kings, 1&2 Judges, 1&2 Samuel as “history”.
I’m guessing that you have Super-Special Cliff’s Notes that are somehow unavailable to the rest of us. [/nullifidian]
Ha, sure thing. I suppose I know it the same way any of us knows anything that isn’t innate: I read books on theology, checked websites (American Bible Society, for one), that sort of thing.
Again, you can tell from the tone/content of those books, to a certain degree. The wisdom books, particularly Proverbs and Ecclesiastes, don’t make any historical claims, and are predominantly focused on a life well-lived. Meanwhile, Psalms and Song of Solomon/Songs have a pretty distinct poetic tone to them… I’m not making this up–you can see for yourself if you like. You can tell in the same way you can tell that Robert Frost isn’t laying out an historical or some doctrinal prose.
Super Secret Cliff’s Notes would be helpful, of course, but I have access to the same information you do. There’s no secret society that passes these sorts of things around.
As I said, the categorization of the books of the Bible is a pretty well-known thing, at least to those who give more than 12 seconds’ attention to anything past the sermon they hear on Sunday (a tragically small number, methinks). Kids are taught in Sunday school and everything… I think they have songs that help them remember. I wouldn’t know, I was never in Sunday school. (and when I hear some of the songs, I’m glad)
But you will not ignore the similarities of the stories, both a driven by fear and the fear of God?
It may be portrayed that way now, by theologians aplenty. But it would be awfully handy to understand how the authors portrayed it.
But you will not ignore the similarities of the stories, both are driven by fear and the fear of God?
No, DarkMatter, I won’t ignore that there’s an element of fear involved in each. The proper response to anyone who could create this universe is both fear and wonder.
Also, I think keeping vows to that same being seems like a good idea. It seems that, however ignoble the vow itself, Jephthah agreed.
I mean no disrespect, Bill, but I think you’re missing an important part of the point, either intentionally or not.
1. God made the request/command knowing full well that Abraham would not go through with it, because God would stop him. If we’re going to discuss the merits/lack thereof of an omnipotent God, we should at least spot him omnipotence in the debate, right? Seems as though making him impotent in this way makes the debate moot.
2. See 1) and 3), I guess?
3. What if this were more of a mic check for God than a tyrannical and arbitrary order. He knew He’d stop Abraham, but He also needed to make the point really clear. So He gets Abraham up to the top of the mountain with his only (sort of) son, and…
“See this, Abraham? This here, with the son and the knife, and the wild eyes? This… now listen to me… this is not okay. You understand? Barbaric. Now untie Isaac and sacrifice me that goat over there behind the hedge.”
Worth considering, anyway.
1) The god may have (arguably) “known” it, but that still doesn’t excuse Abraham’s non-omnipotent actions. As far as Abraham was concerned, demanding a human sacrifice—in person—from a single individual, was still within the MO of his god.
Also, the “thou shall not murder/kill” supposedly happened with Moses, well after Abraham.
2) Child sacrifice laws existed. They could have been changed (as the god in question is supposed to have done with the Moses and Jesus characters) the laws at any time and without external prompting.
3) I think that’s the lamest apologetic I’ve ever heard.
[nullifidian said:] 3) I think that’s the lamest apologetic I’ve ever heard. [/nullifidian]
Ha. Fair enough. Was trying to go a different route than what had already been posted. Sometimes, that leads to an explanation that flat out sucks.
I’ll try not to do that next time… I certainly don’t want to waste anyone’s time. Apologies.
Agreed. Through much of human history, organized religion has been used to coerce, intimidate, and otherwise control people–the ultimate political power structure. It truly has a hideous track record.
Not being an expert on that sort of thing, I want to stop short of saying that it was portrayed a certain way then, but I personally feel pretty certain both stories (particularly Abram’s) have been used to those ends. In fact, the church I attended when I first believed must have delivered 2 or 3 sermons on Abraham’s faith in a year.
John
Question….what is god? Where has your journey led you?
Ok, lets say, against all odds, everything you’ve said is true. I would have no regrets standing before god and answering for everything I’ve done in my life. I feel like I’ve done the best I can with everything I have, and that’s all that matters to me. I was made to go to church as a kid, made to pray at meals, and made to give money to the church. Nothing I ever did when I was a kid in a christian home ever made any sense to me, and your arguments about the parallels between jesus and isaac have the same effect.
I disagree with your contention that all morality comes from your god, because we see that even societies which developed without christian influence have the same concepts of morality as christian societies. At times, non-christian societies are morally superior. Where are the Buddhist Crusades?
I would argue, just like so many of the atheist posters on this blog before me, that any god who would order his follower to slay his son as a test of devotion is a sick and twisted entity, an abomination, to use a word from the old testament vocabulary.
…what the hell are you talking about?
I am talking IF and only IF there is God Roger :D
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