The other day this comment was posted by an atheist:
What’s wrong with killing babies? I see no problem with it. I have enough mouths to feed. I don’t get the argument and I am an atheist. Since I don’t believe in God, I don’t believe in anything characterized as good, bad / right, wrong. So, what’s the big deal?
At first I was shocked that anyone could say that. Then I realized that it must be a fundie in disguise, a sheep in wolves clothing. I wasn’t the only one — wintermute and Ty immediately called him out for “lying for Jesus.” They have good bullshit detectors.
So I did some digging, and I realized this deceiver was using a variety of names. At first he went under names like “grass,” “aatheist,” “apl,” and others. Here is an example of his initial comments:
It’s a rough world out there if you are not in fellowship with authentic Christians. It’s a very sweet fellowship where I am. Come join us!
Sorry for your past dealings with false believers and teachings….
Great thinkers and intellectuals have come to trust in Jesus and the Bible. I am trying to weigh everything to make a wise decision regarding Christianity. I hope others will join me….
The problem was, he wasn’t getting anywhere. Nobody was being convinced or converted. So he tried another tactic — impersonating atheists under different names to show how immoral and stupid they supposedly were. His first try was under “makeup”:
If a man wants to make a women his b****, so be it? So what if you don’t like it, what if I do?
If I want to do something, and my conscience is cool with it, then I can do it. If it’s feed a homeless person, so be it. If it’s kill my neighbor, so be it. I am not bound to any morals.
In a few hours, he went from apologizing for our past dealings with slimy lying Christians, to suggesting it’s okay to abuse women, kill neighbors, and slaughter children under the guise of atheism.
So I banned him. I found what he did to be disgusting. It would be like me pretending to me multiple Christians on a Christian blog, asserting there’s nothing wrong with raping women and killing children because God commands it in the Bible.
Who would do such a stupid thing?
It turns out, a pastor would. After some more digging, I was able to figure out the commenter’s identity: Pastor Chris Fox of Kendalls Baptist Church in New London, NC.
Way to lie for Jesus, pastor! I’m sure you make your congregation proud.
I confronted him about his deceitfulness. He apologized “for upsetting me,” but doesn’t acknowledge any wrongdoing. He said:
There were others who wanted to make comments and had ideas, and they simply wanted to share those in the forum; so for those remarks, my sincere apology. I would also suggest attention given to the name-calling and other profanities used in various posts.
I was trying to make a point from a different perspective, of which I hear quite often, regarding morality and where it is derived. There was a debate recently where some of the same questions were asked and were actually given an honest look and answer….
I am in no way a fundie or extremist. Like you I believe in thinking, searching, asking questions, and hearing others from outside my box. I thank you for your allowing various opinions and sides to share.
Isn’t it interesting that a pastor comes here to preach morality and salvation to us sinful atheists, but then lies about his identity numerous times in order to slander atheism — and even when caught, refuses to acknowledge he did anything wrong. He thinks the issue is censorship of ideas, when it it’s really disgust at his actions.
This site is open to people of all beliefs. John C can testify to that. But don’t lie and deceive to try and gain credibility for your ideas. It will backfire.
* * *
Update (4pm): Pastor Chris has sent me an email apologizing and said this has been a “lesson learned.” I’m willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and have removed my ban. He is welcome to comment under his own identity.
Update (3/21): Chris is now commenting here under the nickname “CSF.” He has posted a formal apology:
I want to express to you how deeply sorry I am for coming on this site and making the remarks I did and violating my own faith. It was out of bounds. I allowed the “debater” part of me go too far. I messed up and I have come to ask for your forgiveness. Thank you for allowing me back on.
Chris, thank you for apologizing and admitting you were wrong. I really appreciate that. You took this the best way possible, and I admire that.
We all do stupid things. What’s important is we admit it and move on, like you have done. I hope you’ll stick around!
1458 Comments
Don’t you love hypocrisy in action? I sure do!
Wow. What a pity he felt the need to stoop to this kind of behaviour. Surely just asking questions about why atheists feel the need for a moral code would have got him further than trying to be provocative? And why can’t the mysterious other people who wanted to make comments just do so for themselves? At the very least, it would have been easy for him to make a point on behalf of another person, if they couldn’t for themselves, by saying that was exactly what he was doing. No need for a masquerade.
Nice detective work.
Not a surprise. When freethinkers are allowed to join the market of ideas without fear of reprisal the only resource of the believer is to hide in shame, shout loudly or… lie for Jesus.
Wow. It seems to me with Christians I’ve known (and have been) the biggest issue of atheism is the lack of a moral ground. And yet here is an example of a lack of a moral ground, from a Christian. Most atheists I’ve met are better christians than the Christians I’ve met. (I know that sounds weird…)
There are so many people that have real questions about what they believe in. What kind of point did he possibly think he could make by lying? To whom was he making this point, to the atheist or to the person questioning their beliefs?
I can only shake my head. I have to say I remember a pastor saying that we have to do whatever it takes to ’save’ someone. And here’s a perfect example. Go against what the bible teaches in order to get someone to believe in it.
Note to future Christians: Stop trying to save us and start trying to just talk to us. We’re people. Just like you.
Really nice detective work, btw.
I wonder what the christians that read this website think of a pastor doing this? I figure he felt he was justified in his scam, since he would probably see it as trying to save souls. I wonder if he ever used the comments he made as examples of how evil atheist are in his sermons.
Some Christians have given christians a bad name, new evangelicals will in the future prefer to be called Jesus followers. All Jesus followers “do” remember that they were once non-believers at one point as well. The pastors lie does not shock at all. We all sin alike; believer or non-believer it’s all in the wanting to change our sinful ways– love and peace from the other camp.
How is deliberately lying to paint the other side of a debate badly considered wanting to change your sinful ways? He di what too many theists do when faced with losing an argument they resort to outright lying. It quite common with religious people to lie for their faith. Dont try to lump us in with liars like him, I have no issue with someone believing in what I personally consider to be a fairytale but I do take issue with someone who’s argument is so weak they need to try and stack the deck. If their faith was so strong and their “evidence” irrefutable why the need to lie?
Wow… Just… wow.
Shame on Mr. Fox, but what tasty irony! Perhaps we take him at his word and consider him to be an “authentic” Christian?
Wow, when I thought it was a teenager who’d never put any thought into morality, it was kind of a dick thing to do.
Now that he’s a preacher, that kind of makes him a dick squared. I’m tempted to email him and explain that atheists are just as moral as Christians, but what’s the point?
In my experience, Atheists are MORE moral than Christians. It’s hard to be moral when you base that morality on an incoherent, morally ambiguous piece of literature.
Thanks for the post. The guy is clearly an unprincipled phony (a.k.a., “pastor”).
Even as a former seminarian and the son of a minister, I’ve reached the (admittedly uncomfortable) conclusion that intellectual integrity and inhabiting a pulpit are mostly incompatible.
Clergy members must (A) cling so strongly to their faith that they squeeze out doubts that would challenge it, or (B) dilute Christianity so much that their own congregations wouldn’t recognize it. (I know large numbers of pastors who wouldn’t dare share their personal theologies with their congregants out of fear of facing rebellion.) I suspect that most pastors engage in some elements of both strategies.
The Tale of The Emperor’s New Clothes comes to mind, but it’s hard to distinguish whether a pastor is the naked Emperor or the charlatan tailors who walked off with his money.
There’s an article about Glen Jenvey over at Bartholomew’s Notes on Religion. He’s a brit who’s accused of posting messages on an Islamic webforum under a Muslim sounding pseudonym. The posts advocated targeting British Jews for attacks.
Jenvey then pointed to those posts and claimed to have uncovered an Islamic plot against British Jews. Those posts were then used in a front page Sun article, “”Islamic Terrorists Target UK Jews”. So it looks like Jenvey was planting evidence.
So, yeah, I wonder @Somegreencat is right, if Mr. Fox was planning to write a few sermons about those “amoral atheists” and use his own handiwork as evidence.
“wintermute and Ty immediately called him out for “lying for Jesus.”
@wintermute & @Ty: if we ever do get that UF get-together, your first round is on me.
“I was trying to make a point from a different perspective”
And he couldn’t have done this by – without posing as anyone – saying “Well, I’ve heard some people say…….”?
Talk about disingenuous.
“of which I hear quite often, regarding morality and where it is derived.”
The only place he’d have heard that is from another nutjob claiming it’s a common atheist view.
“There were others who wanted to make comments and had ideas, and they simply wanted to share those in the forum…”
I think he is talking about the voices he hears in his head.
Hey, here’s a question: If morality is only derived from the Bible, and atheists are immoral psychopaths because they’re not concerned about going to Hell, then why do Christians obey all those laws (at least as much as anyone else does) that don’t appear in the Bible? Why should any Christian consent to be told he has to be sober when he drives, or can’t practice law without a license? If God won’t punish them for these things, what right does Man have?
Why don’t we see Christians protesting all the laws that God doesn’t mention? I mean, obviously protesting the existence of cotton/poly blends and Red Lobster takes up a lot of their time, but still. You’d think their superior morals should be reflected in the law for everyone else, right?
I just submitted this post to StumbleUpon. This douchebag deserves to be exposed. I’ll likely do a post linking to this one too. All atheist bloggers need to be aware of stunts like this.
Nice usage of ceiling cat, Daniel. Personally I would have gone with the “This is why we can’t have nice things” cat.
Now you can has own ceiling cat: http://www.doobybrain.com/2008/03/20/ceiling-cat-papercraft/
What a fail!
From your perspective, Daniel, you should kind of consider the trolling a compliment: it means they’re afraid of you, which means they’re paying attention.
A reverse Poe…. It’s not every day you see something new. Scum-sucking, but new.
“…And as this gets more and more well known, people are going to use it, and some of them (hopefully a minority) are going to confirm his opinion of atheists.”
And that’s how followers of Jesus (the free ones) feel about stunts like this pastor pulled. It only confirms others’ opinions about Christians. And that sucks.
WTF?
If atheists were as evil and immoral as Pastor Chris Fox likes to believe, he wouldn’t need to impersonate one in an attempt to make atheists look bad.
Score another hypocrite point for Jesus.
“In certain trying circumstances, urgent circumstances, desperate circumstances, profanity furnishes a relief denied even to prayer.” – Mark Twain
Nothing new or surprising. Having tracked the Creationism issue for a few years, I am thoroughly familiar with the dishonesty used combat the alleged moral decay of evolution. There is one reviewer on Amazon who consistently downrates pro-evolution books, and displays his lack of scientific knowledge in the process. His handle is “The Professor.” The irony is strong with this crowd.
yeah, like it’s new pastors lie. back in the day, the pastor of my church and bible college was having an affair with his secretary (who was a prof’s wife). they all lie to make whatever they want to work for them.
Have you considered sending press releases to the news outlets closest to where this guy’s church is? His parishioners might be interested to learn what he is doing.
email sent to his personal address…
wonder if he will reply?
It seems to me, that it is not atheists who have moral issues. Clearly it’s Christians. Their actions in your comments convince me everyday that Christianity is ****NOT**** where I’d like to be.
Oh man, best post ever! I hope this gets picked up by other sites.
I am a troller, christian, and a pastor. I have only commented a couple of times here, but I felt like i needed to comment on this post.
I appreciate Daniel, calling a spade a spade. Accountability is the key to to honest discussion and there is no way to justify lying about who you are.
I have been a pastor for 12 years now. I am just as much imperfect as I was 13 years ago. Hopefully, I am a little wiser, a little less dogmatic, and a little less irrational, though I do have my moments. The truth of the matter is that if you are searching for all the imperfect examples of christians, then there is a long, long list (that is figurative and not an actual list) of people that I could point you to who a lot have been pastors themselves.
I think Daniel has every right to make a post like this one and should when someone is an idiot like that, but what I most appreciate about this blog is when you guys really tackle the hard issues of life and discuss openly. It really is challenging and thought provoking and it has changed my perspective on atheists.
Anyways, from a christian perspective, the pastor was wrong and stupid, no excuses. I hope he learns from his mistakes as I hope we all do.
This is what i don’t get about xians and their “hey, I’m only human” line: Xians have the literal spirit of god living in them, right? They are renewed creatures. They are dead to sin and alive to christ, right? They read the bible and the word of god “convicts” them to do what god wants them to do, right? Yet in reality they remain the same shmucks they were before. I have known many men and women who have “given their hearts to Jesus” over the years and in ZERO instances have I seen any positive transformations. The men who liked their porn still like it, they just join a church “accountability group” where they can talk about how much they like porn. The gluttons remain gluttons. The smug remain smug. The haters remain haters. Xians have a higher divorce rate than nonbelievers as well.
And it always ends with, “well if you had a bad experience with a xian, then that person wasn’t really a xian.” Mormons and Muslims say the same thing and it’s bullshit.
Luke 6:44
For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.
What is required to become a pastor in the US? Can anyone call themselves a pastor, or is some form of education required?
Certainly the finer aspects of theology and philosophy seem to have passed mr Fox by. I wasn’t terribly impressed with his posts under various pseudonyms, either. It’s a bit depressing that a guy like that is a moral and spiritual example to others.
Wow. That’s some excellent detective work, Daniel. Of course did Pastor Lyin’ for Jesus not think that his nonsense would be found out? From his bio:
“Pastor Chris enjoys sports, outdoors, reading, and eating (don’t all Baptist preachers?). His passions are his relationship with Jesus Christ, his family, and equipping the church to be disciples and do “disciple things.”
They forgot to add, “…trolling the Internet posing as an atheist as a tool of evangelism.”
Actually, he gives new meaning to the term “tool of evangelism.”
Even if the issue was one of censorship, so what?
This is a private forum owned by a private individual. If Daniel wishes to censor all opinions which differ from his own, then he has that right. The right to free speech is not a right to a free audience.
I’ve posted a few times on YEC’ers blogs, only to have my comments disappear for the sin of containing actual evidence that they can’t answer, for example. It’s intellectually dishonest, especially if they’re claiming that there is no such evidence. But I certainly don’t think I have a right to be heard on their blog. Which is why I don’t tend to spend much time in such places these days, as pro-evolution / pro-atheism sites are far less likely to censor opposing viewpoints, so you get actual discussion.
But, really. Would Pastor Chris Fox allow someone to get behind his pulpit and speak to his church about how great atheism is, and how Christians can’t possibly be moral? No? Then he’s surely got no right to complain about other people doing exactly the same thing, has he?
That being said, I’d like to think Daniel for his forbearance and openness in dealing with religious posters. This place would be a lot less fun without the several intelligent, polite Christians who are capable of understanding that atheists are people too.
And, yes. It would be less fun without John C, too. He’s not intelligent or polite, but he is funny. Like if you put clown makeup on a retarded baby.
Hope someone doesn’t print out this page and mail it to his congregation.
“I was trying to make a point from a different perspective, of which I hear quite often, regarding morality and where it is derived.”
Riiight. I’m sure this topic comes up a lot as he sits on the front porch, sipping tea with all his baby-killing atheist friends.
And when you call him out on lying, he’s quick to point out that others were swearing (omgwtfbbq).
If I were religious, I don’t know that I would feel very comfortable telling my sins to a guy who’s going to use them to throw me under the bus the second he gets in the hotseat.
Scumbags and assholes are bad enough.
But I’m getting a gag reflex at seeing a scumbag asshole smiling and posing with his spawn and offspring, next to all those other people putting on their holy smiles.
On a website for a church.
Setting an example for Jesus!
He is winning souls for Christ. I feel the pull to turn to Christ… what a shining beacon this pastor must be, exemplifying the Lord Jesus Christ’s lying, mendacious, deceitful, hypocritical, fraudulent, crooked, shifty, underhanded, two-faced nature.
I think I’m turning Christian… baby, I’m right there!
“Doctor” Cyrus I. Schofield of the “Schofield Reference Bible” never attended college. He lied on his resume and put in the front of his bible. He also co-founded Dallas Theological Seminary. Christian leaders of the time knew he was a fraud and did not seem to care. His bible is still the bible of note for many fundies. It is because to religious people, faith is more important then facts.
As a child I was lied to, I was told if I did not drink alcohol, do drugs or have premarital sex and would have a long and happy life. They would often quote Joshua 1:8.
I followed this advice. Instead I have had health problems most of my life. When I talk to my parents or other adults from my Christian past, they told me they never made those promises.
I’m gonna post this as a “Me too” on my site. This is too amusing and telling not to.
I wonder, though, if atheists ever pose as Christians on Christian sites and offer an extreme version of their beliefs? I hope not.
Well at least the atheists aren’t claiming to have superior morals, just average morals like most of us
Unfortunately, people like this have highly compartmentalized minds. It prevents them from ever being able to see the hypocrisy in what they say, do, believe, etc. Trying to communicate this to the person is essentially like trying to explain linear algebra to parrot; a pointless exercise.
Gee, if only our atheist scriptures didn’t contain lines that promoted such activities…oh wait, there are no scriptures. Also, it made me wonder….i’ve seen some fairly interesting things when it comes to religion.
Leviticus 25:44-46: “Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.”
There was also a verse on deporting a man who slept with a woman while she had her period, but i couldn’t find which text it came from. Point is…nobody can call an atheist immortal when you base your life out of a book that contains things like this. (and yes, i know not all religions go off the bible)
Why is it, I wonder, that the most aggressive ‘Christians’ rely so heavily on the regressive, repressive old testament morality?
Perhaps he assumes all atheists really want to talk about how they love baby killing, but they are too embarrassed by their belief, and just needed someone get the ball rolling so they can all jump in. Kind of like how racists will pretend they are okay with blacks until someone says something racist and they all relax and get in on it.
The problem is that his portrayal of atheists is such an absurd caricature that half-way through the second line it was perfectly obvious that this was a troll.
These theists have got to be much trickier if they are going to fool us into revealing our secret love of baby killing.
I agree that this is utterly disgusting. Thanks for calling Fox on this piece of sliminess.
Pastor Fox @ “Like you I believe in thinking, searching, asking questions, and hearing others from outside my box.”
If you really were thinking outside your little box Fox then your little parody wouldn’t be such transparent fraud, only ridiculous for how badly you misunderstand your’ target.
Rather than censor him, you should have found some way of identifying his comments (there’s got to be a wordpress plugin for identifying and singling out comments by IP or some other criteria…).
That way he can still post whatever he likes, but there’s a helpful note right next to it that says “This comment written by a Christian pastor”
Ooooh! You’ve been Pharyngulated! Now it’s gonna hit the fan for the ‘good pastor’. I’ve already sent my email displaying my disgust.
Wow. That was fast. I think there is a cut-and-paste response for all the emails he’s getting. Here is the reply to the email I sent seconds ago….
Read from it what you will. But the behavior is reprehensible since he misrepresented himself.
At his web site, on the home page, Pastor Chris says…
Kind of ironic, eh?
. . . So – - great job on outing the lying xian con.
** Take this, and eat . . .
Of course xian communion (aka mass) is nothing but a dim memory of killing and eating god in the raw, tearing apart a living animal or a human, including kings — portrayed in its disgusting horror by Euripides in his play, The Bacchae. (400 years BCE)
Killing and eating children was a charge that pagans used against xians — just what were those secretive Jesus worshipers during their “love feasts.” (Why . . . indiscriminate sex, semen eating, and cannibalism.)
When xians decided that a Jewish monopoly on reading/writing/lawyering & money lending just had to end — strange to tell Jews got charged with killing xian babies and eating them.
Typical lying xian leader, this not so sly Fox demonstrates a total lack of creativity. Slobs like this guy really do feed on others by taking their money fraudulently and spewing out vile beliefs into a world which has deserved far better for over 2,000 years.
Crush the infamy!
“If a man wants to make a women his b****, so be it? So what if you don’t like it, what if I do?”
What’s wrong with calling a woman a bride?
I emailed him, his church, and the editors of two of his local newspapers to tell him how disappointed I was in him…
As a former evang xtian, I think I might know the thinking that led to this. Xtians think that everyone but them are bound for HELL. That’s eternal damnation, knashing of teeth, real uncool stuff. So by their logic, any means is acceptable to bring people to the lord. They would equate it to tackling someone about to cross the street when there is a mac truck coming. This is one of the fundamental (no pun intended) problems with xtianity. It is about the result, not the journey. In reality, all we have is the journey – none of us really know “truth”. It’s only the religeos that claim to know. My parents are evang xtians – and I still can’t get an answer from them as to WHY they believe the bible. It’s hard for me to grasp why anyone would belief this tripe (now that I’m a safe distance away!) but I do understand, from that perspective, why this guy did what he did. Remember, christians have “fought” for jay-sus for years. They even tortured and burned thousands of women for the lord (aka witch burnings). Why is everyone so surprised that a christian would do this? I am impressed with your ability to expose him though!!!! Kudos.
Fox’s apology smacks of insincerity. I see no remorse there, only fear that his congregation might get wind of his dishonesty.
Until an official UF meet up gets underway, I would suggest http://www.drinkingskeptically.org/ and if there isn’t one in your area yet…plan one and get it registered! I’ve met a lot of nice skeptics through the Pittsburgh group.
Pastor Fox made it onto Pharyngula! Looks like he’s becoming his own sensation. LOL
I have heard the same quote attributed to Martin Luther and to Mohamed: A lie in the service of god/allah is no lie.
I just attempted to email this pastor the following – it bounced back. He must have changed his email address. In case he’s looking on this site, here’s my mesage to you:
I am the daughter of an evangelical pastor and former christian. I became an atheist around age 40. It was a long journey of seeking truth (with an open mind) and now I finally realize the harm of religion; the absurdity and atrocities in the bible. I have far more love to give now that I am not distracted by prayer meetings, church, or guilt. I use that time and energy to help others and enjoy life. I associate with other atheists who live a similarly moral, ethical life.
I am horrified and offended by what you did on the “unreasonable faith” site. You posed as atheists and tried to make it appear as though atheists were cruel and immoral. You lied; you attempted to deceive us – deliberately. This is unethical by anyone’s standards. It does not surprise me, however. I have, unforturnately, often found that christians have lower morals than atheists. Did you know that there are few atheists in prison? and that most people in the prison system believe in christianity? Did you know that “red” states have more crime than “blue” states? Did you know that almost ALL serial killers come from christian homes? Did you know that secular societies such as Sweden have more equality, better quality of life, less crime, etc?
I guess it’s true that you shall know a tree by its fruit.
Sorry, my booboo. I had sent the “pastor’s email” to the wrong address – don’t know if this one will bounce.
Allow me to be a voice of moderation here. Before we ruin this guys life by making him some kind of national poster boy for dishonesty, let’s take a breath.
What he did was wrong, and Daniel was absolutely right to call him on it here, but do we really need to bombard his email and tell his congregation about it? Do we really need to write to local newpapers about it? Should the guy’s reputation take a big beating over some on line sleight of hand?
Besides, I’m kind of encouraged by the tone of the email some people got in response. Seems like he might have realized the error of his ways.
Personally I wouldn’t mind it if people could look at the UF community and say we were able to forgive and forget.
The thing that makes me wonder and think; It’s really hard for me imagine someone, let’s take the wifebeater example, to visit these kinda sites. The conversations here usually are quite intellectual and usually deep puzzlings of a belief system and the needing of it or not. So, for a person to first think “Gee whiz, I think I’ll beat my wife at this minute” and the next thought would be “And go explain it to a net blog about these things that it’s alright to do it since I have no moral!” – do christians really believe that we are kinda persons? Why? Have they proof? Other than “Well umm it’s _of course_ common sense that if they don’t believe in Jesus and do the things that the bible says, that they’ll beat up wives and rape children and what-nots”. Where in the world does this idealistic imagination come from?? Do they do like charts and go ask every wifebeater that comes into universal knowledge “Are you christian?” ( and does the second question go “No, but are you a true christian?”) ?
Just wondering….
Ceiling Cat knowz all! B-wear!!!
Here is the crazy thing about this whole “atheists have no morals” argument. From what I gather, their point is if one does not believe in a god or a heaven and hell, then one is free to do all sorts of horrible things because they will never be punished. Yet they never seem to realize what such a theory says about them, mainly the only reason they don’t do horrible things is because they are afraid of being punished. They don’t realize, as I and I imagine everyone else here does, say to themselves, “I wont do (enter bad thing here) because it may hurt someone, or its not the way I would want to be treated, etc.” In essence, these are the people that have no morals as the only way they will behave is because they are afraid of getting caught and being punished. To me that’s far worse. If you need a carrot on a stick to be a decent person, then you are most certainly, in your core, NOT a decent person.
“Like you I believe in thinking, searching, asking questions, and hearing others from outside my box.”
Liar.
Pastor Chris sent me a followup email apologizing and has said this has been a “lesson learned.” I’m willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and have removed my ban. He is welcome to comment under his own identity.
Regarding the lying “pastor”: I’m embarrassed for him to to call myself Christian. Thanks for tossing him. What a shame. Keep up the good work! Rob
Daniel. I have to say, the strange thing is (and please take this in the way it is intended)… you are more “Christian” in your actions than most of the “Christians” that I know. As a termed “liberal” Anglo-Catholic priest, I’ve seen many. :) I suppose what I mean to say is by holding him accountable, and giving him the benefit of the doubt to return, you have proven moral and ethical in my humble opinion. :) Keep up the good work!
Thanks again. Rt Rev. Robert D. Hall, Texas
I hope he won’t take it on his wife and children in the aftermath. I hope he will be ok.
you can hardly fault a priest for lying. as bertrand russell demonstrated so elegantly (”…therefore i am the pope”), once you prove one false thing true, you can justify any statement.
the flaming shrubbery speaks to me, therefore war is peace, freedom is slavery, and ignorance is strength.
Thanks for the update, Daniel – about the apology. Maybe I’m not as moral as you, but I can’t help thinking that he may have apologized just to avoid publicity about his actions. Someone that duplicitous cannot be trusted.
It’s fascinating that this guy would pose as an atheist. Matthew 10:33 says, “But whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.” If his purporting to be an atheist wasn’t an act of denying god before men, I don’t know what it was.
He was also bearing false witness, it would seem to me, though perhaps he doesn’t consider atheists his neighbors, so he he could probably rationalize that he wasn’t bearing false witness against a neighbor.
Organized religion has an agenda,always has and always will so this is really not that much of surprise when you think about it. The unfortunate fact is that this is not an isolated incident,I have come across this sort of fundamentalism before many times but in retrospect this is minor in comparison.
Christianity 101,”love thy neighbor”,seems to be a case of love thy neighbor unless ones neighbor thinks differently than you, then all bets are off.It would be a terrible generalization to say all Christians think this way because that is simply not true,I still believe in ones individualism and ability to think for ones self,but it’s this kind of religious intolerance that keeps the human race divided.Love thy neighbor because its the right thing to do.
I’d like to comment on part of the pastor’s reply, “I was trying to make a point from a different perspective, of which I hear quite often, regarding morality and where it is derived.”
The pastor’s atheist impersonations were meant to suggest that if you don’t believe in God then you have no reasons to behave morally, i.e. morality comes from religious belief.
We all clearly reject this thinking, but I’d like to suggest a better answer.
Morality is an evolved trait. Humans are social creatures, as we are physically weak but highly intelligent. As such, a tribe of humans can band together for strength in numbers, but humans who wander off by themselves get quickly picked off by predators.
Because of this, we have evolved to interact well with others. We crave social contact, we thrive when included in social groups and we deteriorate when isolated. Those who showed anti-social behaviors found themselves banished from the tribe and thus isolated, and they did not survive. Those who showed characteristics that were advantageous to living in close proximity to others, would survive and thrive in a tribe, and thus got to pass on their genes to future generations.
Traits like empathy, concern for the well-being of others, etc, were essential for living in social groups. An every-man-for-himself approach quickly makes everyone dead, or at least as far away from each other as possible, and thus dead soon enough.
So, morality is an evolved characteristic enabling humans to band together in social groups and thus survive. Since atheists evolved in the exact same way that christians did, our moral instincts and benevolent traits are every bit as strong as any christian’s.
I really enjoy reading this blog (putting it on my blogroll)..by the way Pastor Fox I not so sure you are sorry…
maybe just caught!
I admit that I write on poe blogs; the difference is that the owners of the blogs know that I am “in on the joke”; in fact one has made me a contributor.
But some of those who surf in often think that I am serious.
Hmmm…this is making me think about my actions.
For clarity’s sake, I’m about as intolerant and loud vis theists as anyone, up to and including Hitchens (who, being a limp noodle, would stop short of giving Dinesh D’Souza a good smack in the skull)…
Nevertheless, while I can’t say that secular humanists have never impersonated believers on any X-tian blog in order to blather some sarcasm (I spend no time on X-tian blogs), I CAN say this:
There have been more than plenty examples of tongue-in-cheek posts, oozing satire and dripping vicious sarcasm, spent in the guise of Great and Eternal Jebus.
Not that I don’t see the one as simply more foolishness and the other as well-aimed riposte…just sayin’…if you turn the tables, what this guy did under twisted sock puppetry is not without counterweight – yin and yang, n’est pas? (Debates of style and quality…or, you know, Truth Value…notwithstanding).
He is not the only one. Lovely religion of peace joins the party:
Hilali kicks door, blames vandals:
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25208451-5013404,00.html
aren’t IP addresses fun?? :)
Oh aren’t all you holier-than-thou atheists shocked and outraged?!
If you were all so outraged, why didn’t you turn on the guy when he wrote what he wrote?
Why didn’t atheists write in with “Listen pal I’m also an atheist and I think you’re insane” … NOPE!
That didn’t happen and it doesn’t ever happen.
The atheists are SOOOO-non-judgemental of FELLOW ATHEISTS ONLY.
Oh the hilarity of you nutty godless retards.
As one of the so-called “nutty godless retards” I find it hilarious that a Pastor would find it necessary to go on an atheist blog and pretend to be an atheist in order to convert atheists.
Couldn’t he have been out helping the poor or doing something better with his time than making an idiot out of himself trying to change minds in the dumbest way possible?
Also, I totally might eat some babies tonight. Or help at the soup kitchen. It’s hard to tell since I have no morals.
Daniel, and Fellow Commenters,
I want to express to you how deeply sorry I am for coming on this site and making the remarks I did and violating my own faith. It was out of bounds. I allowed the “debater” part of me go too far. I messed up and I have come to ask for your forgiveness. Thank you for allowing me back on.
I know some of you think that I am this horrible, two-faced, hypocrite and hates atheists and others not like myself. That couldn’t be any further from the truth. I genuinely love people. Those who know me best know that I do not slander or hate anyone, but am open-minded and compassionate. I am human and make mistakes. I saw I what I thought was mischaracterization of Christians and I allowed myself to get sucked in, to my own demise. I acted a fool.
I received some pretty nasty emails – I deserved them. I also received some sympathetic emails from non-theists and others. Thank you.
I am talking openly to some of you via email and invite and welcome that to anyone. I do believe strongly and passionately in my faith (and am gentle and respectful) and do my best to set the example and model for my family, friends, and congregation. This was not the good example.
I hope I can restore my example and witness. I am open to sharing why I said on some of the posts. I am not excusing my behavior, but willing to dialogue further.
Sincerely,
Chris
okay. i have no problem accepting your apology.
i do have a question:
Why do you think that atheists have no morals simply because they don’t have a belief in a god? we still have to conform to the rules of society. it’s not like we can murder and then show up in court and just say “Well, I don’t believe that I’ll be punished for eternity by a god that says murder is bad.” It doesn’t matter if you believe in god, they will still put your ass in jail.
Let’s all go run around and eat babies while burning cats with a flamethrower because we don’t believe in God.
xy:
Thank you for the opportunity to respond. I totally agree that if you do the crime, you do the time. My intention in the post (and it was extreme I know) was to say that if someone (not necessarily an atheist) were to say, “Hey I have no problem with murder or stealing, etc,” how would you respond? In other words, “morally I am nuetral, I don’t believe in it, but if someone else does, so what?” Where, other than that society’s laws, would the moral come from and it be absolutely true for all of us? Would there ever be a time when stealing (I’ll use the lesser of the evils) would be moral? Why/Why not? You and I know that it is wrong. You have based your morals on something(s) and so have I? That’s where was coming from. I know that my faith has some extremism and my goal is to best reflect Christ. I goofed on here. I hope to shed better light. Email me for more dialogue. Thanks.
I actually did set a cat on fire when I was younger (as a child). Thankfully there was a creek nearby – first and only time I have seen a cat hit the water. : )
I actually did set a cat on fire when I was younger (as a child).
You do know that that is a common trait among sociopaths and serial killers right? In fact, childhood acts of amoral cruelty to animals is about the only common thread between all of them. This isn’t surprising coming from a person such as you have proven yourself to be.
You are deeply disgusting and utterly lacking in basic human decency or morality.
If you were a healthy human being, the question of where morality comes from wouldn’t even need to arise, you would have a clear and instinctive understanding of it. That’s part and parcel of being a normal healthy human being. The fact that morals are a completely foreign concept to you as you have proven, is a clear and obvious sign that you are a deeply disturbed individual who most likely poses a grave threat to anybody around you.
. I allowed the “debater” part of me go too far
And here is how we know for a fact that your apology is nothing but yet another calmly calculated act of dishonesty on your part.
Nothing in what you did had anything to do with debate. The fact that you are trying to sell such an obvious lie, is again, quite telling about your character, or complete lack thereof.
All you were doing was projecting your own complete lack of understanding of ethics, morality, and basic human decency.
Seriously, you have a lot of growing up to even reach the point where you wouldn’t be an embarrassment if you were a very small child. The fact that you’ve reached this age without developing even the rudiments of a moral compass is a very strong sign that you are not capable of ever understanding how moral, ethical, healthy brains work.
I pity you, but far more so I pity any poor victim under your power, and I pity anybody stupid enough to not realize what a monster you are.
When I say “my faith” I am referring to Christianity and to the extreme things that some do that border hate. I am not in that category and want to better reflect the true teachings of Christ.
@ Pastor Fox:
Remember this…All things work for the good to them that love God…even this if you allow it to! Romans 8:28 is more than a cliche. And Genesis 50:20…what they meant for bad, God meant for good. We need 50/20 vision here my imperfect friend!! Cuz I am imperfect too and always in need of great measures of grace which Pappa is so fond of dispensing toward those of us who believe. Go forward, move on past this my friend cuz Love wins.
JC
xy:
Let me also respond to the first part of your question. I truly do not believe that all atheists do not have morals. I believe that almost everybody does. My intention was to gather from whence they come and who determines them? Yes, the laws of this country are great and I am thankful to be living here than in countires where I could be imprisoned for even speaking my mind. Thanks.
From whence come morals? You have some reading in sociobiology ahead of you. Here’s one introduction to this field: http://hs.riverdale.k12.or.us/~dthompso/exhib_03/joshw/int.html
” Evolutionary ethics is an attempt to bridge the gap between philosophy and science in a form that explains the biological origin of morality.”
For another excellent summary of research on the interplay of genetics and altruistic behaviors in humans and many other animals, try: The Red Queen: Sex and the Evolution of Human Nature, by Matt Ridley.
i am amazed that there are grown-up adults in this world that think that the only people with consciences are those with a religious affiliation. i’m even more amazed that so-called christians actually say and teach that idea to their most impressionable members. i knew the difference between right and wrong long before i ever got to catechism at age six. people who say they don’t are making excuses for doing what they feel like and not what they already know is wrong, but tempting (for whatever reason it may be). a smack upside the head to pastor jim!
and to people who don’t use their best judgement in their lives.
Bill,
Thank you for your acceptance. What I meant by that was that I know many many Christians who exemplify love (not perfection) and grace, and give so much of their time, money, and talents to the church. They are genuine. They do make mistakes. True Christians will be hypocritical at times, but are not “hypocrites.” What I mean by that is to be a hypocrite means you are habitually “playing face” and wearing the mask and play-acting. Jesus called these out and basically said they were not true believers. I am hypocritical at times, but Itry to serve my God the best I can.
There were comments on various posts just putting Christians down and calling us names and using all kinds of names. This is my first time commenting on a blog. I was saying to myself: “I know there are some bad apples out there, but i know too many who shine with love and grace.” Irony of ironies, I suck myself in.
“Christian” is a funny word. I live in a county where 95 % of the people are *cough* “Christian.” And by that I mean that if you were brought up in a church, or your parents were Christian, that makes you a Christian. But that’s far from it. So, many people (especially atheists and other religious faiths) see the hypocricy of many so-called Christians (who really are not) and that fortifies in their mind – “Oh this is what a Christian is about.” There really are masses of Christians and great churches where people are accepted for who they are, no matter what background, clothing they wear, or anything. I believe that.
So, that sums up my thoughts. Thanks!
To CSF-
What is the precise definition of a True Believer (TM)?
Who in the in-group and who is out? When, how, and by whom was this determined?
@CSF
Like others have said. Don’t get sucked in and give into frustration, that almost always ends badly. Like me, I gave into frustration and ran into a pair of Philosophy majors here. I assumed they were Godbotting, and I was quickly in over my head. :P
At the worst, you can end up banned (like you were), and at the best, you can end up embarrassed (like I was).
In the end, I hope you do stick around. One of the greatest things I like about this blog is the Christian element. Though, admittedly, most of that element is coming from ex-Christians, but I still like to see well thought out comments from those who still believe.
Sadly, I think one of the only believers who comments regularly is JC. And man, I just… I can’t read that anymore. I always gloss over his comments. :P
I’m not surprised something like this has happened. It seems that many christians have the attitude, “it’s OK to break the last 7 commandments if it means enforcing the first 3″.
I’ve read the pastor’s apology. I think it would have more meaning if he confessed to the people in his church and be honest about what he has learned. He perpetuated the negative and undeserved stereotype of Atheists. If he were really sorry, he would try to undo the damage and try to spread a more accurate picture of what we are.
As for the origins of morality, morality appears in nature. Even monkeys know when something is not fair. Morality is a society’s way of getting along for mutual benefit. It’s not handed down from a deity who’s allowed to ignore it at will. Morality comes out of the necessity of being in a group.
PWND…
It’s called satire, I use it all the time. I habitually argue through the ridiculousness of the other person’s belief. Of course, it’s a thin line between satire and strawmen, and this guy definitely crossed it. Not on purpose, he just has a typical misunderstanding that yes, it is possible to have “ethics” without getting them from a book.
Daniel – thanks for exposing this impostor for what he is and thanks for taking the time to put up this website. What you are doing is bigger than you think “you are a soldier in a war that never ends…” I commend you and expect you will see a large following as time goes on.
Hey, google “Pastor Chris Fox.”
[borta]Verrrry niccce![/borat]
In the world of Quantum Physics, the mere fact of observation changes the outcome. Regardless of your personal theology or science your readers are recognizing that you have done well to fight a person’s darkness.
Because no person, (even Pastors) have a corner on the market of sin, I think sometimes in this whacked out world, forgiveness seems even more complicated than sin is. Therein likes somewhat of the miracle.
As youth, many of us pointed and laughed.
Perhaps it is a higher challenge to not point, and love.
What then is the lesser of these: being the pointee or the pointer?
Like it or not, you are following the Light.
I am certainly not a fan of deceit in any form, and believe it to be a shame that a pastor would conduct himself in such a fashion, unfortunately it seems to be a path Christians take more often than not.
I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.
–Mohandas Gandhi
disturbing. and yeah, nice detective work.
It’s a shame when a Christian does that. We oughta be careful in our conversations and testimonies but it doesn’t justify anything about atheism. You’re still gonna get it someday and I promise you, your mouths will be stopped.
Hey guys, I’ve sent an e-mail to this guy and here’s his repsonse:
Mr. Renard,
Thank you for your honesty. I am deeply sorry for my actions. The post below was intended not characterize all atheists or non-believing, but was related to the question or morals and if not having morals was okay. Looking back at it, it did not come across the way I intended to. I do not have any ill-will towards atheists.
I have sent a statement that expresses my apology:
Let me share that when I recently came across the UF website, I browsed through the posts and wanted to share ideas and give opinions. I am in no way a fundamentalist or anti-atheist/non-believing. But, I got wrapped up in some of the topics and posts and wanted to share, and I allowed it to step over the line. I did not opine to antagonize or “win souls” – in fact, I am quite moderate in my beliefs. I didn’t personally attack anyone. I don’t characterize all atheists as immoral or amoral. In fact, there are believers who do immoral things. I was indeed hypocritical. My intentions were not to be deceiving. I wanted to ask questions that would allow others to think and bring out their thoughts. I am deeply sorry for my actions. As I have pondered and prayed over the past few days, it was not the right way. It may be my naivete, but I wanted to speak from my experience with people of all walks of life and actual thoughts and conversations I have had. I never intended the thoughts to characterize all atheists/non-believers. In conversations with my atheist/non-believing friends, we share openly and candidly and give permission to speak bluntly about things, often using hypotheticals and hyberbole. I see that some of the posts have characterized me as a fundie and extreme, an idiot, and worse, but I am anything but. I don’t know what your beliefs are, but please don’t let this alone form an opinion about my character or heart. I am truly sorry.
Kindest regards,
Chris
Starting a new thread for this, still.
@JC
I will ignore the first point of your last post, since God’s demeanor clearly changes from OT -> NT, and thus your statement that he is “changeless” is ignorant at best.
So, are you saying that the OT is symbolic, and that you aren’t supposed to take (as much of) it to heart? At least in the written word? That the NT is where you’re -really- supposed to get God’s message?
If so, then why did God write the OT how many thousands of years BEFORE the NT? Did he just not care for all those hundreds of generations that came before Christ? Not that I think you’d ever say “we can’t know God’s will”, cause you sure seem to say quite the opposite a lot, BUT! I -am- asking why -you- think there was this separation, and why he doomed so many people before the NT to toil and sorrow.
Also, what verses point at Christ, and why have the greatest Jewish Rabbi’s completely missed that in their devoted studies OF Yahweh’s words, but you’ve managed to find them?
Humans are all the same, none perfect. Depends on how much conscience one have.
Try being an atheist for real, then try being christian for real. Get involved. Then come out and argue.
Meh… fanatical followers of a dying cult do stupid stuff.
Same-old… same-old…
Daniel, isn’t it a bit old school for you to point out hypocrisy in the church? We all know it exists, it exists because you are dealing with… people… flawed individuals
this is the reason my son left the church in the first place so I don’t discount its power to persuade, but come on, it has been in the church body forever, look at Judas.
What people that do things like this do, is put a blanket over all Christians (or Atheists) saying that’s who we are. I would say he doesn’t speak for you or your beliefs any more than he speaks for me and mine.
I saw this terrible video of this pastor last week railing against this church in SC. I had just come from a leadership conference at this church in SC where I know several of the pastors, and this moron our in AZ just bashes this church from the pulpit. I would like to rip this guys tongue out… he doesn’t speak for me, my religion, or my faith, and he certainly doesn’t follow the scriptures that speak about not creating division within the church… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S99oKuZrxcI
This guy doesn’t speak for me any more than Pastor Chris Fox does (by the way, enjoy the video, that’s a bonus for you, haha).
It does look as if Chris Fox now has some regret for doing this in this way, so I am guessing next time he won’t handle this in the same manner, but he does not speak for me. Good piece Daniel.
Mr. Fox,
I am just wondering after all your experience in dealing with sinners and working with the church and everything it has to offer if you think of your new found world-wide fame as the speaker who shamed the entire world Christian community by spreading disgusting lies for jesus in a deceitful and disgusting smear campaign against all people, all human beings of every nation in the world who according to God are all his children, if after all of this you do not feel like your mind is fit for anything other than assisting you in the service of cleaning the toilets of atheists.
You obviously DO need a code-book to keep your moral compass pointing away from your own dirtbag intentions but you clearly need a more concise and clearly written book than the bible!! Your own personal weakness does not represent the fabric of humanity, this is the error in your personal philosophy. Here is some info for ya , human beings while very plastic in nature and easily manipulated generally have a very well developed sense of what is right and what is wrong without needing a code book. This is why good will always triumph over evil ( evil is like ..well.. you ). While the written history of the world ( much like CNN ) is full of horror stories involving the awful immorality and cruelty of humans acting violently and oppressively against other human beings ( most of which is perpetrated by men like you who used religion as their moral compass ) , what written history is NOT FULL OF ( Much like CNN ) is the very real and common peaceful and moral activities of billions upon uncountable billions who raised their family, worked everyday, lived productive quiet lives and did so without you and your god-damned hypocritical stained book.
You are the reason the church is failing, you and others like you . Goodbye dirtbag.
Good story.
As a believer in poetry (as opposed to religion) I find the whole thing a little validating and all together unsurprising, sadly.
I’m sure there’s a lot of this that goes around. It’s one of the many quirks of new technology.
Seems this pastor has only succeeded in negatively impacting perceptions of his religion. Then again, I don’t assume to have moral high-ground over anybody else.
;o)
I think it’s unfair that some Christians’ wrong moves and approach towards certain issues have caused a whole lot of hatred and disgust towards all other Christians.
I’m a Christian myself, but I’ve never once thought of atheists, or anyone from other religions, as being any less moral than some Christians are themselves. I have many friends from different religions and truth be told, I have no issues with them and neither them with me. Christians are encouraged to evangelise and spread the Word of God, and honestly, I myself have done some evangelism when I was in tertiary school. But no, I did not cram the Bible into ppl’s throats, neither did I start a heated debate with them. All I did was get into a conversation with them and we just shared our beliefs. That was all I did and many times both parties end up learning more about the other’s religion. And you know what’s the beauty of it all? The ppl I’ve evangelised to have become good friends of mine, and some even went on to learn more about Christianity on their own. To those who remained faithful to their religions, I don’t mind that one bit, and don’t strike their names off my friends’ list.
I think that’s what all Christians should really do before going all out on evangelising; just get to know the ppl, and respect their views instead of just putting up a defensive wall everytime the other person refuses to believe in Jesus. They have their reasons to believe in their respective religions, just like we do. So just hear them out. Besides, the main point of evangelising is not to “save” the person, it’s just to plant that little seed in that person, and leave the rest to God. The main vision of evangelising is so that everyone knows someone who truly follows Jesus, simple as that. Whether they believe in Him or not, we have to let them decide that for themselves. That’s why I think sometimes doing the simplest things bring out more meaning.
One last thing..to the hardcore Christians, pls remember that Jesus is the holy one, not us. We don’t have to act all high and mighty just coz we’re Christians..it doesn’t make us bionic or something. We’re still humans like everyone else. Be humble, and God bless.
Have a great Sunday y’all!
“It does look as if Chris Fox now has some regret for doing this in this way, so I am guessing next time he won’t handle this in the same manner, but he does not speak for me.”
-even after his confession and apologies, he is not considered a christian? Wow.
3Jo 1:10 Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church.
If there are more like you trying to be like apostle John and remembering like him instead of sweep their deeds under the carpet, maybe the church will be viewed in a different light, but until such time.
Cunts are still running the world :
http://frenchcarcan.com/2009/03/21/les-cons-ont-toujours-commande-le-monde/
Anything goes when you’re “winning souls for sweet Jesus.” Lying is just part of doing business.
wow………so sad…
Those comments are the kind of thing that, had he not been incognito, and had we known he was a pastor to begin with, we’d have been able to detect that he was using a kind of “role-playing with sarcasm” to make his points. But since, here on the Internet, there weren’t sufficient cues to reveal exactly where the poster was coming from, it really was a bad call on the part of the poster; that is to say, the pastor. I’m glad he apologized, and I’m also glad you accepted him back to post under his true identity. Discussions around that identity might be a tad livelier from here on in.
While I applaud the pastor for owning up, I suspect he only owned up because he was caught.
Things like this make me ashamed to call myself a Christian – though I am not ashamed of Jesus, I am ashamed of a lot of his followers.
I found this picture online a long time ago and at first laughed – then felt sick over how true it is.
http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/EPH/8310.jpg
>This site is open to people of all beliefs. John C can testify to >that. But don’t lie and deceive to try and gain credibility for >your ideas. It will backfire.
It’s very telling that your blog was put on the main page of Wordpress.com.
This pastor was very foolish and wrong for what he did but he wasn’t entirely false in what he said.
My wife and I have often been called liars when we tell the truth. We both do counseling at our local Planned Parenthood. We tell the honest story of our own abortion and help people to hear the side of abortion that most people who claim to be about “choice” and “free” speech are very very quick to censor.
We speak to people at Indiana University and at Planned Parenthood and atheists (if they will even talk at all) will often say that right and wrong mean nothing to them. They couch it less directly than that mostly but do say it.
Then you get Randian Objectivists who have spent too much time reading Atlas Shrugged thinking it’s a sort of bible, those people call themselves rationalists etc. However, it’s funny when you talk to an atheist, it’s surprising how often they know virtually nothing about science or evolution.
Basicially, I’m an uber-conservative Christain and there is lying on both sides, no question – the question is which side has more people pursuing the truth honestly and not hiding behind banning posts on their blogs etc. You can search a few blogs – especially the one that I found by accident “abortion the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth” – I was called a liar for just saying that we killed our child – I don’t know if they called me a liar because abortion doesn’t kill a child or what they were saying but they deleted all my posts – they were not angry or rude – but you’d better believe those women suffering from abortion flipped their lids showing who’s suffering, those who address what abortion did to them or those who pretend it hand no effect.
All of us make mistakes, some can admit it some can’t. It’s a human problem – one that affects all of us. The difference is that Christians have put themselves against a standard that can be used to judge us – atheists do not so we’re easy targets.
>This site is open to people of all beliefs. John C can testify to >that. But don’t lie and deceive to try and gain credibility for >your ideas. It will backfire.
It’s very telling that your blog was put on the main page of Wordpress.com.
This pastor was very foolish and wrong for what he did but he wasn’t entirely false in what he said.
My wife and I have often been called liars when we tell the truth. We both do counseling at our local Planned Parenthood. We tell the honest story of our own abortion and help people to hear the side of abortion that most people who claim to be about “choice” and “free” speech are very very quick to censor.
We speak to people at Indiana University and at Planned Parenthood and atheists (if they will even talk at all) will often say that right and wrong mean nothing to them. They couch it less directly than that mostly but do say it.
Then you get Randian Objectivists who have spent too much time reading Atlas Shrugged thinking it’s a sort of bible, those people call themselves rationalists etc. However, it’s funny when you talk to an atheist, it’s surprising how often they know virtually nothing about science or evolution.
Basicially, I’m an uber-conservative Christain and there is lying on both sides, no question – the question is which side has more people pursuing the truth honestly and not hiding behind banning posts on their blogs etc. You can search a few blogs – especially the one that I found by accident “abortion the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth” – I was called a liar for just saying that we killed our child – I don’t know if they called me a liar because abortion doesn’t kill a child or what they were saying but they deleted all my posts – they were not angry or rude – but you’d better believe those women suffering from abortion flipped their lids showing who’s suffering, those who address what abortion did to them or those who pretend it han no effect.
All of us make mistakes, some can admit it some can’t. It’s a human problem – one that affects all of us. The difference is that Christians have put themselves against a standard that can be used to judge us – atheists do not so we’re easy targets.
Welcome back, Pastor Chris.
Thanks for posting this. I love engaging the real thoughts of both-extreme sides. I’m interested in reading more from an ‘ex-Christian’. I’m new to blogging myself, and trying to hone my skills, even while chasing around my 1 year old triplets. I posted about an intense conversation I had with a guy on a plane and most of my responses have come in support, from my Christian friends. I’d love to hear some other thoughts, so please feel free to visit my page: dgoffeney.wordpress.com
I’ve been given yet another reason never to return to church or any religion again.
I hope you realize, Pastor, your babyshit has guaranteed that I’m still going to go to hell.
I am a Christian but, I do not support such deception. The bible (God’s Word) tells us to be an example to unbelievers In all our ways. If that story is true, that man should no longer be a pastor, why? He has shown his true light – he is a false prophet. There will be a greater condemnation for him at judgement day and maybe, just maybe, an atheist will be his judge :)
With all that said here are two verses to contemplate from God’s Word:
James 3:1-3 (New King James Version)
The Untamable Tongue
1 My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment. 2 For we all stumble in many things. If anyone does not stumble in word, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle the whole body. 3 Indeed,[a] we put bits in horses’ mouths that they may obey us, and we turn their whole body.
James 3:2-3 (New International Version)
2We all stumble in many ways. If anyone is never at fault in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to keep his whole body in check.
3When we put bits into the mouths of horses to make them obey us, we can turn the whole animal.
We all mess up at times but, writing on a blog in a deceptive manner is not a mistake, it’s intentional and the bible warns about that too. If we know something is wrong and we do it knowingly, we are under a greater condemnation than someone who did the same thing but did not know it was a sin. Come on, why do we read and teach from the Word to the World and don’t practice what we preach?
I do encourage atheist to study the Bible and be reconciled to God through his son Jesus Christ, even with such bad examples out there because, even though there are bad example, there are also numerous good example of Christians, not perfect but, good examples, because we have not yet been perfected. You also will not be excused at the judgement time of God your creator. Two sides to the coin.
I found the story most interesting because, coincidentally, I’m currently dealing with a Jehovah’s Witness who’s been misrepresenting atheism/atheists and has been making (rather absurd) accusations and allegations in a discussion forum. Be that as it may, I don’t believe the majority of Christians are into this kind of outright deception, lying, misrepresentation. On the contrary.
I think taking advantage of anonymity on the web reflects how ethical people really are. I liken it to the kind of student who doesn’t cheat when the teacher’s around but who would when there’s very little chance of getting caught. The thing is, we all instinctively want our children to do the right thing whether we’re around or not, whether reward/punishment awaits them or not. We want them to develop integrity.
I was just wondering whether Pastor Chris Fox would’ve apologized had Daniel not found out and revealed his true identity. I’m also wondering whether the JW who’s spouting off lies would stop doing so and make amends if his true identity were suddenly revealed.
I guess before we post anything we must confess our association, at least that seems like the unsaid rule. Therefore, I am a Christian and a young pastor. Not sure if I have that much to add to the conversation, but I will attempt to.
I slowly read down each and every comment this morning. My tone continued to change throughout the entire (long reading) of the comments. I was mad at the Pastor for “representing” Christians so poorly, I was embarrassed at the responses of many Christians who posted wanting to make excuses for Pastor Fox, I was amazed at some of the forgiveness and understanding that was being expressed by some here. However, I was also confused because many Christians sounded like functional atheists and many atheists sounded like functional fundamentalists. To me, that ultimately affirms our common humanity in all its beauty as well as its uglier sides. I think that clearly a challenge for everyone moving forward is for us to be affirming one another’s human dignity, being authentic (losing the christianese mumbo jumbo) being transparent and honest with one another, and I would assume that we all want to move towards creating a more pleasant and understanding atmosphere where true dialogue and mutual exchange can take place (which there has been some of, I am just advocating for more of it).
Just reading everyone’s posts has been challenging/thought provoking for me personally. Ultimately I am glad the pastor apologized, however there are always consequences for our actions, and so I do not agree with covering this up. However, someone did talk earlier about Darfur, and other atrocities globally as well as at home. I hope that we can find ways to partner at areas of agreement on such challenges that lay ahead, not allowing our different ideology continue to shackle us in the future.
sad really, that a “pastor” would say this. Makes the real christian pay for those comments. Don’t be deceived, there are some people who are truly “Christ like”. Just like there a few good men out there, this is also true for few good women, and few good christians. How you find them? You might never know.
He can fool ignorant christians, but he can’t fool all. His nature is who he is.
He can fool ignorant christians, but he can’t fool all humanity. His nature is who he is.
Allah is your God…
Are you sure? Maybe it is not directed at me.
This Pastor needs to do some serious soul searching.
Lying for Jesus, hey? Is that what he was doing? Or was he illustrating, in harsh terms, the perspective of other consituencies in order to demonstrate their flaws or where logic necessarily leads their arguments? Socrates did it. Then Plato…why not others?
Nice try.
I wonder if he really believed that we were all a bunch of moral nihilists just waiting for some judicious prodding to descend into utter baby-eating, cat incinerating anarchy. I mean hasn’t this guy ever heard of moral naturalism?
Anyway nice work, Florien. I must admit that I’m a bit curious to see how he’d react to the euthyphro dilemma/other critiques of divine command ethics.
That was a sad thing that he did, but I am glad he apologized. It is important to admit when we go wrong.
Thanks for posting this, it was really interesting.
-Aadel in KS
Okay hold on a sec. Let me wipe away the laughter tears and get seated again. “better Christians than the Christians I’ve met.” OMG, nope on the floor again. Wait….
Seated again. Oh, how I love the comedy of the atheist.
O man are my sides gonna hurt later.
You are right! He lied. As a Christian, I agree that the fundamentals of faith include truthfulness. Now that he is caught redhanded, let him off the hook (forgiveness). Maybe all can grow in this.
Are you a eugenicist?
The best argument against abortion is this:
If you truly believe that the world is overpopulated, then why don’t you do the world a favor and kill yourself? What makes you think that your life is more valuable than anyone else’s? Is it the evil that exists in you?
He’d cry persecution for sure.
Hilarious. Great detective work, and while I knew of some atheists who like to pose as fundies to be provocative, I’ve never heard of the reverse.
We really should do a UF conference someday. That would be a lot of fun!
Heh. It really wasn’t that difficult. I’m pretty sure we get the credit just because we were the first to comment.
But thanks.
And, while we’re on the subject, I’d like to go to TAM one of these years. Maybe a UF meetup there would be appropriate?
“Since I don’t believe in God…”
simon peter called; he wants his shitck back.
KEvron
Man. Jesus is still real and he still loves you, whether you believe or not. I pray that you would come back to God’s love and his purpose for your life.
oops, I definitely didn’t mean to make that a reply, sorry.
Question-I-Thority , you asked for life changing miracles you have personally witnessed from revival09 and I persoally think he shut you down – was not necessary, if he mentioned it, he should have been able to back it up in a non-combative way.
Let me give you two of my own, I will leave out personal details but, you will get the whole idea and truth.
1. I became a christian when I was 16 and never looked back, even through adolescence – that was a miracle cause I was a sinner heading to hell, breaking God’s laws without intentions of stopping or considering the consequences. So now, I am a sinner saved by God’s grace. Basic deliverance story.
2. This is the one I intend to tell but, the first is the back story:
In 2000 I got layed off from work, I had a huge car payment, rent, utility bills, the works and not much savings to rely on. I filed for unemployment and started getting the checks while I looked for work. My bills were still not being taken care of and the upcoming month was gonna be do or die.
I visited by bro who is also a christian and explained to him my situation and how I had to find a job which could stabilize my situation. My bro said, “do not worry about it, God has a job for you already.” I was not surprised at his answer, it only reaffirmed my faith in Christ because, the bible teaches us not to worry about stuff like that, because if He takes care of the birds and flowers, he will do more for us who are made in His image (paraphrase).
I went home that night feeling somewhat ok and ready to go job hunting again. That night or a night later, I had a dream of somewhere I had been before to print a job that I had done for my church (I am a graphic designer). Back story: It was about 10 years since I had been to that location and when they saw the work I did, we discussed employment, they were the interested party, but when I told them the salary I would require of them, it became clear that they would not employ me, so I stayed emplyed at the job I had. Now in the dream, I went there to look for the manager and I was directed upstairs to his office, when I went in, his desk was a mess with work and he was on the phone speaking to someone and he could not speak to me. I waited around in the office and as I looked to the north of his office I saw that the walls were knocked down so I looked over and saw men bringing parts in, as if they were doing a remodeling and expansion of his building. I stayed for a while and observed, but the manager was still on the phone and it seem evident to me that I had to return – that was not the end of the dream but it ended shortly after that. The dream was very real and when I woke up, the first thing that came to my thought was that it was from God. My bro usually tell me of these message from God and how they come true but this was my first.
I thought of calling the job location but, I said to myself, even if they hired me it would be below my pay level and it would not help. I went back to my old job to clear out some office stuff, while there I got a call from the manager I had the dream about and I was surprised, he knew I was working there because I was working with one of his competitors. I jumped on the opportunity to tell him I was laid off and that I was job hunting. He then ask me if I was joking, I said no. He then went on to tell me that he have been looking for me for the past couple weeks and hat I must be joking or lying because he gave a church brother a message to give me. I asked, what message? He went on to tell me that he needed a graphic designer and I was the only person he could think of to fill the position. I thought this is crazy. I arranged to meet with him the next day. I did not have a portfolio put together with my current work so I spent most of the night preparing it. I went in next day and brought my “proud, beautiful portfolio” :) When I stepped in he greeted me like a brother and told me the office manager will see me in a few to talk about salary. No interview yet, so I said would you like to see my portfolio – he replied, no, I already know the type of work you are capable of. He also went on to ask me about the message he sent with my church brother and we discussed for a while and I explained that I have not seen him and that if we did meet up he would have told me about this quest he was on to find me. Long story short, I got the job and a worth salary. After employment was confirmed, I went and spoke to the manager immediately because I and to tell him about this crazy vision from God. I explained to him that I think his business would be expanding and he immediately said he had plans to do so, but someone else was in the section of the building that he wanted to acquire.
Two years into the job, the person in the next part of the building just got up and left, no explanation, leaving his employees in his mess. The business closed. Before this, my manager was looking for another building to purchase and we even found one, but someone got the deal before us. AAAHrG, nice building, but was not ment to be. My manager jump on the availability of the part of the building which was now vacant and acquired it with no problems. However he only used it for storage. I knew something was down the pike but I didn’t want to say anything else about my dream, I wanted to see how God was going to work it out, as far as the expansion was concerned. The third year, plans were made to start creating a new office in the newly acquired space and within approx. 7 months it was completed. My new office was now in that section and the front office was also. Now remember, in the dream I went upstairs to see the manager, that was my old office, exact location as in the dream. Now I moved downstairs and my manager moved upstairs in the same office I dreamt him in, my old office, that’s were all the confusing office mess is kept today, away from the clients. Just like I saw in the dream. There are more details but I’ll stop there. I reminded my manager about the dream I told him a little before the project was ended and he told me no, he does not remember, but after I explained he aid yes, I do remember now.
Those are two of my personal miracles. I think it happened to me in order to strengthen my belief but, I told you because you enquired and that it may make you believe. Can miracles occur to the unbeliever, Yes, in order for them to believe. When Jesus fed the multitude with a boys lunch, there were unbelievers in the audience but everyone ate of the lunch of fish and bread, that miraculously fed 5,000 women +men and children. However, there is also another side, sometimes it does not matter how many miracles we see or experience, it’s not enough. If you read the new testament in the Holy bible you’ll see what I mean – it’s just not enough to believe in God, even he devil believes in Him and tremble. However I implore you to check out the death, burial and resurrection of His son Jesus Christ, because if you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and repent you will be free from what the bible calls the bondage of sin. That goes for me and you. I am not better that you, I am just saved from the same faith, due to sin. Death. (complete spiritual separation from God)
Thanks for your patience
God Bless You
I’ve read a good majority of the replies to this blog and am saddened to see that most you just don’t ‘get it’. I’m not talking about the wrongs that were done through slandering and impersonating; I agree that they were wrong. But they were also confessed and apologized for. As a society, people have been a lot less condemned for more serious crimes (if you can even call this a “crime”).
No. What saddens me is the slam on “religion” and the insinuations that this is what Christianity is all about, because of the actions of 1 man. The Bible is not about religion (that was man’s interpretation – just like the many Christian faiths out there – each with their own docterines). The Holy Bible I read is about God’s love, forgiveness, His Grace, and His ultimate sacrifice of His son, Jesus, who died on the cross to bear our sins..and no, not just the sins of Christians. Jesus came to save all mankind because He loves us THAT MUCH. For those who choose to accept that ultimate gift of God’s love and try to follow the ways of the Bible, we are called “Christians” but we are still human, still subject to sin, we still make mistakes. The difference is the accepting of God’s sacrifice and the using of God’s word to guide us through our mistakes, strengthen us when we fall, and raise us up to be the children of the King we are ALL meant to be. One only need look at some of the greatest people in the world to see that…Abraham Lincoln, Martin Luther King, Mother Theresa, even Anthony (Tony) Robbins, all God-fearing, Jesus loving people! God Bless them for the goodness they brought/bring into the lives of millions upon millions of people.
All I’d like to say is, please don’t lose sight of the message because of the messenger, or use the mistake of one man to persecute others. To the messanger, I for one, forgive you. And for those of you who have heard stuff or think you know about what it’s all about, I challenge you to read God’s word and ponder it for yourself before you draw your own conclusions.
~Shalom (peace :)
Zelda
I have a feeling he’s lying about that, just like everything else.
But if it is true, I can picture the pastor and some staff members around a computer: “Oh, Oh, I have it! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Yes, Jesus, yes!”
“Shirley, stop babbling and tell me your idea.”
“Sorry Pastor. Say it’s okay to KILL BABIES. Yeah, that would be hilarious! I bet they all think that. Slimy sinful stupid atheists. They love abortion, so they’re all baby killers.”
“Ha! That’s a great idea, Shirley! Oh and they probably kill their neighbors, too. And beat their wives. I’m going to say it’s okay to beat wives. That’s so funny! I can’t wait to use this in my sermon next week!”
“You’re so funny, Pastor. Thank Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ of Nazareth we’re not like those disgusting sinners! Oh, did you hear how much we got in the offering last week?”
All those of you who still believe that faith and believing in a supernatural spirit are prerequisites for moral and ethics should check out Phil Zuckerman on YouTube. (interview by Danish TV). Life is so much nicer and honest without the Book and the dogmas, especially for women. You can be sure, there is no heaven or hell.
HA! That was awesome.
You seem thoroughly annoyed by this guy (and pastors in general?).
I like it.
“I’ve read a good majority of the replies to this blog and am saddened to see that most you just don’t ‘get it’. I’m not talking about the wrongs that were done through slandering and impersonating; I agree that they were wrong.”
What is his wrong that you think “you” don’t get it?
Yeah, I agree entirely. My only misgiving is that the page you link to has his email address on it. And as this gets more and more well known, people are going to use it, and some of them (hopefully a minority) are going to confirm his opinion of atheists.
How Would Jesus Lie?
Hopefully nobody will be stupid. But you are right, as this gets linked to, the chances of stupidness increase.
Well, it looks like a work email, so hopefully if it gets flooded it won’t cause him to many problems. He can just cancel it and start using the general church e-mail.
Hey all!
This person has succumbed to the use of “Rovian’ tactics in his perception of his own weak position.
I remember Rove once placed ‘bugs’ in an office of his own candidate and then had them ‘discovered’.
Not exactly analogous but it is exactly this kind of machination that are precisely antithetical to the teaching of my Christ.
Pastors? We don’t need no stinkin’ pastors!
Christ is self evident within. To me. And it is only to me, as I learn to live reflectively rather than reflexively.
If this fellow has kids I would love to hear his explanation of this to them.
The use of dirty tricks in any group often seems to come from those who can categorize the ‘other’ as the ‘enemy’.
At age 53 I have yet to categorize anyone as my enemy. Even if the feeling might have been different from a few I have met regarding myself.
Shine on fellow travelers.
raybann
CosmosLaundry Journal
Then why don’t American Christians follow the law of our land (the Constitution) and quit trying to introduce “intelligent” design into science classrooms, which is a clear violation of the 2nd amendment (congress shall make no law respecting religion)?
lemme guess… because they’re hypocrites?
I love how so many argue that all human morality is derived from the bible, even though law systems such as the Hammurabi Code existed before any monotheistic religion.
There is something within the human psyche that tells us what is right from wrong, whether it is leanred from experience or whether we are born with it. But to suggest that it was given to us by a higher power is an insult to the collective human consciousness.
If you need a book (created by MAN, by the way, not your God) to tell you what’s right from wrong, then by all means use it. But don’t you dare use morality as a way of trying to find common ground between us. Atheists have a moral code that stems from a sense of honor and self-identity, not fear and worship.
as someone who has been in ministry positions, i’d like to know what the hell kind of church he’s pastor of that he has so much time to hang out on msg boards?? i wanna job there.
kitty <3 innernets c’spiracies
I’m impressed by your actions of forgiveness!
I agree with Zotmaster. One has to view Christian trolls as a mark of success. You are striking a nerve or they wouldn’t bother commenting at all.
Hi.
I’m brazilian, I do not understand English very well, and would be great if you could set a translation tool in this blog.
Anyway, this theme is beaultiful and this post is nice (I’m talking about what I could understand).
Whao i am very saddened by these comments. I am a Christian a Seventh day Adventist. And even if i agree or disagree with other peoples Faith or lack their of. It is not my placer to judge others. But what this “Pastor” commented was wrong and not very Christian at all, i will be praying for him.
http://www.zulema2.wordpress.com
He’s not sorry for lying. He’s sorry for getting caught.
True, but it fails to Poe as it was immediately identifiable as one.
I was so glad to reach the end of your post and read his apology. Though his lying was certainly a discredit to many people’s perception of Christianity, his apology speaks volumes.
Ok, perhaps I’m just not reading this correctly, but I really don’t see how this was SUCH a huge deal…he did lie in a way, but it was to prove a point. I completely understand where’s he’s coming from and I just don’t see how what he did was so wrong. Sure, maybe not a good way to prove a point, but he got your attention, now didn’t he?
Ok, perhaps I’m just not reading this correctly, but I really don’t see how this was SUCH a huge deal…he did lie in a way, but it was to prove a point.
I’m really amazed how it’s possible to fail to understand something so simple, but let me attempt to explain it in a way you might be capable of understanding.
He lied flat out, “not in a way”. That’s one very important point.
Further, he did not lie in order to “make a point”. The “point” was his lie. He didn’t make a point he told a lie, and tried to pawn it off on millions of decent people all over the world.
I wish I could say that I was surprised to see so many Christians like you and he who have no understanding of morality or ethics or even basic human decency, and think it’s ok to lie through your teeth provided it’s intended to hurt decent people just because they are thinkers rather than believers.
If you were incapable of understanding that on your own, then it’s an indication that your reasoning skills are very poor, and that your morals are crap.
How funny. How very funny.
This is one of the reason why people think Christianity is just another religion that has absolutely no consequence.
Most Christians (me included, unfortunately) tend to lead more people away from Jesus than to him. It’s hard being a Christian, every second you’re just waiting to be devoured by a pack of wolves.
If people don’t listen to you…well, that’s their problem. They’re the ones who’ll suffer. Just do the best you can…but not as far as lying.
lol.
That’s sending the wrong messsage. duh.
I find it very interesting that Christians such as this Pastor apparently find athiests and agnostics immoral. I feel that I embrace the highest form of ethical and moral behavior in my daily life. My actions are based on empathy for the human condition and the desire to treat others as I would like to be treated. There is nothing religious about that concept, no hope for a reward in heaven that I long for, no belief that God is either pleased or displeased with my actions. I would find it presumptuous and arrogant to say that I understand the nature of God – selfish to behave rightously toward my fellowman in expectation of reward.
I love Thomas Jefferson’s statement: “Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.”
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787
I like to call myself an apathetic. I don’t care to explore the existence of God; I have no time for it. I have no time to waste listening to a priest or minister or to spend singing in a choir. What I know is what I see before me: I see people in need, I see injustice, I see monumental tasks to be done for the benefit of mankind and the preservation of this planet. If there were a God, I would think that the mandate would be to spend less time exploring His or Her existence, less time trying to praise a being who obviously would be above that superficial need, and more time engaged in preserving the wondrous creations we see surrounding us and on becoming a more enlightened, less selfish, more empathic human being who bases his or her beliefs, not on the messages learned as a child, but on the reasoning of an courageous adult.
You’re not a troll, sir. You’re a respected and appreciated member of this community.
Yeah, I agree with wintermute, I’m not sure why you called yourself a troll.
It would have been one thing if this guy lied about himself for his own personal ends. The kicker here is that he was lying with the intent of making a group of people look bad. That’s like number nine on the Bible God’s top ten list of things not to do. So it’s rather noteworthy that a pastor would so casually do it without remorse.
I do disagree with your saying, “I hope he learns from his mistakes”.
A mistake is when you try to accomplish something (you know, sheet metal, chemistry synthesis, skiing, carry a fragile load without breaking it, clearing the bar on a high jump, giving a speech, etc.), and don’t accomplish the desired outcome and desired result with the desired proficiency.
This was not a “mistake”.
This was a deliberate, premeditated, planned, fully intended lie, deceit, hostility, and verbal attack.
I hope he won’t try to burn down the server of this website. He will end up in jail.
Pastor “Rynoos”,
I agree with what you say, but, on the other hand these so-called imperfect pastors and leaders can do alot of damage in humanity whether you find them excusable or not and christianity doesn’t really have control over faiths of her kind.
Thanks Rynoos! I agree with wintermute — you’re not a troll! As I said, people of all beliefs/non-beliefs are welcome here. I just ask for civility and open-mindedness.
I am embarrassed, but I have done stupid things too.
Call him “Dishonest John”. (john-john)
When I challenged him to read CS Lewis, he said, “I am familiar with Lewis”.
Yah, so????
I’m familiar with War and Peace, but I haven’t read it.
Seems like John C lies, but it’s easy to see through.
sorry that happened. that is very odd behavior for a christian to do that….usually we just say we are christians, and get it over with…..
Why is the preacher apologizing? What he did may have been deceitful; but that is for him/her alone to judge. In either case, he apologized, and persisting to embarrass him is only a credit to a hyper-judgmental band of blog apes.
How does one apologize for being deceitful to that which is itself deceitful? What’s deceitful is Atheism’s claim to some philosophical high ground that is nothing more than a pile of sand. In my own experience, the volume of Atheists who are willing to misrepresent their credentials is completely unrestrained by any measure of credibility. Having read Dawkins or Hitchens or the other guys is no purchase of authority; not in public, and ESPECIALLY not in any formal philosophical context. They have none of them taken formal coursework in philosophy of religion; if they had, they would not be running an Atheist blog.
Can you hear me Padre? You have nothing to apologize for to these internet clowns. This is outrageous. You guys are your own punchline.
WOW! This has created quite a stir! It might have been easier to stand on a ledge and threaten to jump or possibly just have a good old fashion hanging. Lots of people always showed up for a hanging or tar and feathering.
But certainly is a lesson learned for the pastor. Glad our God is a God of grace.
The preacher’s behavior fails to be shocking. Rather, I expect this sort of thing from fundamentalists.
Hmm… very interesting post. Thanks for sharing this.
As a Christian myself, I totally understand the temptation to try and play the “devil’s advocate” but realize the damage and it can do. Sometimes, we want to share our own opinion so much (regardless of what we believe), we don’t realize how much we degrade and devalue the ones we are lying to. Thanks for showing the other side. Appreciate it :)
What makes you think it would bother them in the slightest?
I had a mental image of someone standing in front of the church handing out this post to members as they entered the church. :)
Wow, getting to this point I wish I had time to read all the comments made here, but i simply don’t have time. But I think I have the General gist of it.
I find this pastor’s comments to be an interesting point in case, because although the lie was not justified he clearly wasn’t being malevolent or trying to hurt anyone. I think the term most appropriate here would be that he was ‘over zealous’, a state which I’m sure we have all found ourselves in.
Mr. Fox’s comments which he made under his pseudenyms were, as far as i can see, the frustrated attempts of a man convinced in his faith to save people from a woefully inaccurate stereotype. It’s surprising to see how few people there are in this world who actually mean to do harm, who do evil deeds to hinder progress, instead of claiming to be fighting for the needs of others or some greater purpose, how ever deluded and ill-conceived this purpose is. Considering has apology, Mr. Fox is clearly not one of these people, he is in fact a man trying to save the souls of others. I’m not defending the lies he told or the largely false accusations he made about a perfectly ordinary group of people, I’m just saying that his motives were clearly pure.
The same can be said about almost all Christian people. I was approached just before christmas last year by a pair of youths who wanted to invite me to the miracle of jesus christ through the church and the bible. Whatever you may think about people who stand on the street peddling their religion to the masses, almost all of whom have their irremovable concepts about religeon already in place, I chose to see two young men who approached a complete stranger in an attempt to save his soul from falling into damnation and thereby being allowed into eternal paradise.
I make no secret about my feelings for the church and the bible; to me they are wonderfull buildings and rather, shall we say, ‘Revealing’ literature which are pure and well meaning as a concept but in their physical being have been used as propaganda and justification for moral injustices by certain individuals throughout history since before even the Romans got the idea. Weather The Bible was written by those men in the words directly handed down from god is now irrelevant, it is certainly a very human book in this day and age.
But that’s not the point here. I’ve wandered a little off the topic I suppose, but my point still stands. The gentlemen who wanted to convert me to their faith were ready to believe in the good in a human being they had never met (for those of you who would call me naive by the way, I expect nothing less. I am the sort of person who gives others the benefit of the doubt) and yes this was based on the words in the bible, but still they were doing what they thought was right.
So drawing to a close, Pastor Chris Fox is not, as far as I am concerned, a bad person. He’s just a good person who in the line of doing something which he thought was right, ended up doing something which he himself knew to be wrong. Life tends to just throw this kind of paradox at you and you have to deal with that. I’m sure everyone who has posted on this Blog will know what i mean.
peeingupwind is an idiot. offensive and stupid and the sort of fool who gives fundies their daily dose of horror and righteous indignation at the state of the non-christian world. you got it all over yourself with your abominable post.
I don’t get all the fuss about this either. I pretty much expect Christians to act hypocritically and amorally. They can ask forgiveness later. (The US has the highest prison population in the world, both per capita and sheer numbers. How’s that for the most religious industrialized nation on earth?)
Us atheists have to live with our mistakes and thus are held to a higher moral standard.
I agree 100% with a loud AMEN! That is why they need to be held accountable. I don’t know how this will be taken, but “pastors” are just men. That is not an excuse…by choosing that profession they do put themselves under higher scrutiny and should remain humble…but, wherever there is any type of power or influence there is a great chance to become arrogant and lose direction. There are idiots in every profession, culture, country, state,etc. and we shouldn’t allow the idiots to drive our conversations of difference. If we are looking for idiots we are always going to find them on both sides, so let’s admit it and continue talking about the good stuff.
By the way, there are some very direct passages of scripture towards teachers or pastors about their conduct and the standards they are held to by God. Pastor Fox will have to figure that out for himself. I don’t know how much you are familiar with the Bible, so I am not trying to belittle you at all, I just wanted to point out that hopefully Pastor Fox can see the arrogance in his actions and realize he has standards he is called to live to.
You bore false witness.
This is against one of the ten commandments.
It is the same in god’s eyes as murdering someone or stealing or adultery.
I knew a guy who graduated from Dallas TS. He was an assistant pastor at one of the big Baptidomes in Dallas. He was married to a good friend of mine. She divorced him when she found out that he had a “porn” problem and was picking up hookers in his spare time.
True story. And no need to to pose as someone else to tell it.
Non-believers stand up for yourselves with dignity!
IMPORTANT – Do this WITHOUT insult or abuse, as it will make you as bad as the perpetrator and vindicate his actions.
To everyone who is offended as I am about this matter, and regardless of your beliefs, I urge you to write personally to Pastor Chris Fox expressing your concern at his actions and requesting a public apology.
Here is the email I have just sent to the Pastor if you want some ideas…
Dear Pastor Chris Fox,
Your actions in impersonating an atheist for the sole purpose of spreading hatred based on your own wrong stereotypes, are deeply offensive.
In doing this you have disgraced not only yourself, but the values of the church you represent. Apart from denying your own God, your willingness to repeatedly bear false witness against those who have done you no harm has hurt and insulted very many people, religious and non-religious alike.
Nothing but a full, unqualified and sincere PUBLIC apology to ALL atheists will come close to redeeming your utterly abhorrent behaviour.
Yours sincerely,
Peter B.
(Full name given)
————-
Please also consider joining the Brights and supporting the Out campaign.
Via Wikipedia:
“An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.”
There are several types of trolls, but they generally all involve posting on a forum in bad faith; e.g. portraying yourself as something you are not in order to cast aspersions on a group or an individual, deliberately provoking outrage by violating social norms esp. when the provocation doesn’t have a point, pretending to be another regular poster on the forum, and so forth.
Simply disgusting.
I get a kick out of how he made the common mistake of assuming that being an atheist automatically means having no morals. That logical fallacy has been trashed time and time again but some people keep trotting it out. Amazing. Anyway, that fact made me suspicious right off the bat.
“Perhaps he assumes all atheists really want to talk about how they love baby killing, but they are too embarrassed by their belief, and just needed someone get the ball rolling so they can all jump in.”
No, we’ve got Friendly Atheist for that.
Please. I saw this blog pop up on the word press site, it’s insane that people are caring enough to comment. BUT, if the point of the title is to create some kind of shock value ” caught lying for Jesus” — I maybe it should read ” Atheist wastes people’s time bashing Christians”
Get over your bitterness and self titled ” former Christian ” -
you never were a Christian if you aren’t now, so be proud of your Atheism, and stop seeking approval from Christians and trying to exact punishment on them for your wounds. Live YOUR life and give up trying get back at a religion you now reject. You’re keeping this relationship with Christianity going by constantly verbalizing your distain. If you truly “quit ” the Christian religion then find something else to talk about. You dont need this conflict and friction to validate your view, and by rousing Christian angst, you don’t gain anything, if you are right,and convinced of it, then why seek out blogging against something that should be a mute point to you. Don’t define your self by what you ARN’T or don’t like. But by who you ARE now. Be your self and stop worrying about punishing others who aren’t like you . [ isn't that why you rejected Christianity in the first place , because you were treated that way?] give it up. [ this blog comes across as "bitter Atheist bashing Christians blog] YAY what fun. [?]
Thanks. Funny thing is, I’ve been thinking about changing it soon. You see, I recently left some posts on a Christian blog – kind, polite posts actually – and forgot all about the avatar. My guess is that they’ll take one look at it and refuse to interact with me. So now I’m a bit conflicted.
It’s unreasonable how he stereotyped all atheists; who’s to say every atheist believes in raping and killing children? The bible believes to spread the word of God not go against him to upset people of his religion and people otherwise. I’m an atheist however I have morals and I respect everyone’s views as long as they are not criticising others or upsetting them, is that so hard to do?
There’s too many comments here to analyze, but there was one that stood out. “God’s Only Comic” made an especially rancid and arrogant slur on the character of a man that did nothing to deserve it… and, how is it that a professed atheist can get away with saying something so idiotic, and not suffer retribution for it… because it’s an atheist blog?
“The problem is that Jesus is the same vengeful, vindictive, infanticidal nut job described in the Old testament.”
The only thing he got right was the identity of the second member of the Godhead in the Old Testament… which tells me this could be a disgruntled former Christian, because most do not associate Christ with the God of the Old Testament, and only they have the vitriol to talk like that. The rest was unsubstantiated bullshit… the ravings of a lunatic!
I see that a lot… Christians have to tip-toe around the sensibilities of Godless folk, and the latter can slander and swear against God and Christ all they want. Theirs is considered free and open thought, whilst the Christian is considered narrow and vindictive!
Well, Comic, (a good handle for you, because you’re a laugh of a man, buddy!) this Christian makes NO apologies to ANYONE, and banishment isn’t anything new to me, nor is it feared. I grew up without religion, and since I’ve found the truth after having to sort through the myriad of lies by atheists intent upon burying the truth, I’ve been far better off for it. And, I won’t be coddling you or any other of your ilk, compadre, so get that straight, right now, moron!
I’m the sword that Gideon wielded, because there is a need for people like me… to laugh in the face of arrogant infidels, who deride and insult God and His people every day. There is nothing that says that any follower of Christ has to take the crap that self-important cretins feel it’s their duty to dish out upon others that don’t think like them. I don’t give a rat’s ass what that preacher said or did, because David was a liar and a murderer… pretty much every follower of Christ had a dark side. That was the point… to equalize all in the need for salvation, and God doesn’t play favorites! Far more infidels commit crimes and atrocities than Christians, but, that fact is strangely omitted in the rhetoric of atheists.
I always hear the same tired old crap that God murdered women and babies in the OT… and just what do you think those heathen fools were doing to THEIR neighbors… engaging them in knitting contests? Wake the f*** up, why don’tcha? The Assyrians skinned people alive, one strip at a time, over DAYS!!! They cut off fingers, one at a time, cauterized the wound, then worked on up the arm, one joint at a time, cutting, cauterizing, then started on the toes! What was left was a trunk writhing in agony on the ground! The Philistines BURNED their infants in the ‘arms’ of a pagan god as sacrifices… and THAT’S okay with you, eh, Comic? Nothing in your smart mouth about what THEY did, huh? Not surprised! Atheists are the most ’selective’ debaters there are!
You talk about science being your salvation… a science that has been warped and misrepresented by infidels bent upon erasing the Creator’s visage from nature. You have a false and vain hope, there! But, you know, the Christian has time on his/her side. Infidels don’t. Now, I know that my words will be misconstrued as those of a crank, and I really don’t care! I care when honest folk ask honest questions, and I’m getting low on patience for infidels that only seek to work Christians over. You want to take me on? Come onto my turf, anyone, here! Preach to me your rhetoric that I’ve heard AD NAUSEUM for decades, the same tired old excuses for not believing in the Bible, and God’s sovereignty. I’ll show you a head-wagging infidel behind the errant actions of any Christian, who influenced them to do what they did.
Now, ban away, Mr. Administrator, or moderate me into oblivion, because that’s how infidels that I deal with handle opposite thinking. I care not.
No apologies… ever!
This is what happens when I don’t hit reload for a while and find out that someone has already answered the question, and better. :)
It is madness, total madness.
“Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all others because you were born in it.” – GBS
I like this one. It reminds me that most Christians and Hindus and Muslims are just that by chance, and that their whole belief structure would have been vastly different for a small change in latitude and longitude.
LRA,
You have no idea what we tell these women. Did you hear what I said, my wife and I have had an abortion, I know how they feel. They feel trapped, cheated, angry, scared – and often they’re in a thick fog.
We tell them that we’re not here to judge them to but help them. But if you’ve stereotyped us then you’re not going to listen to anything I’ve said.
To be sure, there are tons of Christian hypocrites, there are tons of non-Christian hypocrites, actually hypocrisy is pretty much the nature of man. But there are Christians who don’t make it a practice of going around hating people, but you see your definition of love is not going to be the same as ours.
I have talked to hundreds of women about to have an abortion (and the the fathers) and have never called the a sinner or said they were going to hell.
So get your facts straight about what we do, some people do what you say but Paul Hill is not a role model for anyone I know.
Atheism is a religion and it has its hypocrites too. Anything that’s got human beings in it is going to have that.
I’m sorry that people have been hurt by Christians that doesn’t mean that God doesn’t exist. People have been hurt by atheists too, does that mean that it’s proof that God does exist?
As far as the keep your laws off my body routine – if you had a Siamese twin who was using your kidney and heart but you were tired of them cramping your style at parties, would you be allowed to kill them? People who are on life support, like victims of polio aren’t alive because they can’t breath for themselves – can’t live on their own?
“I regret my abortion” (in quotes – exact phrase) produces 5,080 hits on Google, not a single hit for “I liked my abortion”, “I like my abortion”, “I’m happy about my abortion”.
Oh, there was one hit for “I love my abortion.
Dude, seriously. It’s “RogER.” You can type that, right? E and R. Right after the “g.” You can do it…or, if not, pray to your Invisible Sky Friend to give you the wisdom to type properly.
rogER…over and out.
“I think one of us needs a little nap.”
Good idea… and, when you wake up, tell me the fairy-story of Evolution, so I can have a good nap, too… or a good laugh!
Seems like we all have our personal dictionaries and college degrees open to be able to keep up with the intellectual arguments that are present here. Pastor Chris Fox (a lower level servant) has surely gotten the results that he was seeking from his actions.
The flesh apologized, but the evil spirit is laughing!
Now that we Christians, Atheists. and all other religious and non-religious individuals have allowed Pastor Chris Fox to unmasked our true and well guarded nature, by opening the egotistical door of dominance, confusion, shame, apology, guilt, insecurity, defensiveness and hatred.
Will the philosopher whom has journeyed through the door of the heart, using the eyes of the heart to see and grasp the wisdom of God, step forward and share his/her experiences of what and where our level of belief in God, Jesus, Divine Intervention, science, dark matters or evil should be?
We do appreciate your personal experience!
Village Idiot Claid? lol, whatever happened to Daniel’s label of “court jester”? I like that one better…ha, take care.
I don’t really see him as a hypocrite. I see him a bit intelligent where he’s questioning the validity of his own faith.
doesntworkthatway…
I get the one-sided accusation all the time… the BIG BAD ISRAELITES MURDERING ALL THOSE INNOCENT CHILLUNS! Give me a break! You obviously don’t hang in places that I do, okay? Don’t tell me what I’ve experienced, you don’t know, and you don’t know me, either. My idea of “love” has just as much merit or virtue as anything you could come up with.
The science that atheists venerate is always touting inherited behavior, through genetic means. Your arrogant statement that no form of infanticide is acceptable might be true from your limited viewpoint… however… when did you ascend above the mind of the Almighty? Did you ever suppose, for even a second, that maybe God understands/understood more about the human mind and behavior than even your eminence? Did you ever consider that those kids, so cute and cuddly, witnessed barbaric acts perpetrated by their elders against other people, so much that it may have made an indelible impression upon their characters so that they might, as is often touted by scientists and doctors of today, be inclined toward the same behavior? You ever hear of the abused child becoming an abuser?
These were horrendously primitive times and peoples, and the situation obviously called for measures maybe not acceptable, today. And, who are you or I to question infinite wisdom? If your child assumed your stance, and called your decisions foolish and uncalled for – what comparison would that have with the gulf that lies between your mind and that of deity? You weren’t there… you don’t have any authority to offer any kind of counsel, nor critique God.
They were all given numerous opportunities to allow the Hebrews passage, unmolested. Those that complied, saw no retribution. The same couldn’t be said for the godless tyrants who slaughtered out of pure enjoyment.
Let’s try and keep that perspective, okay?
You have to remind them of “us” being “real people”?
How nice of you!
Thank you Brent, but can you also includes non-believers and agnostics? They are also real humans.
Thanks again.
Thank you, Brent, that’s a very kind thing to do. It’s not always easy to defend those you don’t understand or agree with. We would all do well to remember that the trolls who pop into boards and lie and paste banana-man’s arguments aren’t the only kind of Christian, either.
Seriously, though, it does definitely weaken the argument that God somehow makes you moral. Could it be, somehow, that all of us follow the moral codes that make sense to us, and break them where it seems right to us to do so? Many have lied and killed in the name of their God. Atheists just don’t blame it on beings we can’t see when we screw up. Unless they’re wearing tinfoil hats…
Thanks friend. We’re not the enemies many xians paint us to be. Truly.
Don’t tell me what I’ve experienced, you don’t know, and you don’t know me, either.
It’s obvious that you are a fool, a liar, and an extremely angry person, most likely due to those two other primary of your personality which I pointed out.
Your arrogant statement that no form of infanticide is acceptable might be true from your limited viewpoint…
That’s not arrogant, it’s called having a grasp of morals and ethics. Your lack of them is a big part of your desperate desire for a magical invisible friend to tell you that you’re ok.
however… when did you ascend above the mind of the Almighty? Did you ever suppose, for even a second, that maybe God understands/understood more about the human mind and behavior than even your eminence?
Obviously not, because I’m not an idiot who believes in magical invisible fairies. Imaginary friends are for children. It’s time to grow up.
And, who are you or I to question infinite wisdom
The fact that so many of your imaginary friend’s alleged actions are so far beneath the contempt of decent people whose morals are far superior is what calls any idiotic idea that your imaginary friend is anything but a delusion.
You weren’t there… you don’t have any authority to offer any kind of counsel, nor critique God.
It’s *easy* to critique your god. Assuming he was real, he made so many stupid decisions which anybody with a scrap of sense could easily improve on.
That’s because your god is nothing but a tool of ignorant savages to help justify genocide, theft, and a whole host of other disgusting behavior.
“Once upon a time, the big bang theory was the best explanation we have to date for the formation of the universe. The End.”
LOL! And, they say Christians are arrogant!
Like I said… the same, tired old rhetoric.
you know smtn’? he is just playing…leave him alone!
there is nothing wrong with fooling around (like i am doing right now) in the internet. If i was him, i would probably sue you for spying on me!!! it’s privacy dammit! you aren’t supposed to stick your nose in other’s private affairs! and in no way i see the pastor being at fault!
the pastor thought (probably) that no-body would know his identity and that made him do whatever he wanted (let it be “writing junk” or “acting stupid” or “faking to be a non-believer”). You are the one who HAD TO GO SPY ON PEOPLE!
LOL
Reaching Out – it’s the New Hooking Up!
Yeah- At my old church, they discouraged “Mercy dating”… dating someone in order to convert them. Ha! Talk about “reaching out”!!!
“he he he he he he!!!!”
I believe, Doofus, that’s heh-heh-heh-heh-heh-heh!!!
What, you can’t even text laughter, boy?
Atheists… always carrying them in some way or another!
:lol:
Oh wow. Nice job digging that one up.
it would seem that pastor chris has gotten his wish and opened a huge debate. too bad he had to be a stereotype to accomplish his goal. there’s so much room for so many opinions in this world. the crying shame is the lack of accurate information on so many issues that are hot button topics to religious folk, particularly fundamentalists. i know whereof i speak as i know a wide variety of people of different orientations and beliefs and was myself raised as a catholic. i can’t believe the complete tripe that is being spouted in some of the posts here and frankly would not want some of these so-called christians for a next door neighbour.
Okay, then, John… brother… tell me why Christ PHYSICALLY drove the ASSHOLE money-changers from His Father’s temple? Do you think asking them nice-like would have impressed them?
Also, tell that self-righteous twit doesntworkthatway that using the tired old “you’re just so sick” accusation is pretty passe, by now, and that only those with limited intelligence and imagination, so that they deliberately misconstrue everything that I say, (English even the lowest moron could understand) doesn’t count for intelligent debate, okay?
You being so much more Christ-like than me, and all that.
I knew the moderation thingie was coming… same as all the rest, and the real provocateurs get off scot-free… again, as always.
Thanx for the workout, anyways, Mr. Moderator.
Have a nice life in your new calling.
Reckoner, your hypocrisy is monumental… and you’re an idiot, as well.
Final word.
Bye-bye!
This story has been blogged about here:
Another sinning pastor.
http://www.atheistnexus.org/profiles/blogs/another-sinning-pastor
LRA,
Abstinence doesn’t work?
Prison doesn’t stop murder, but we don’t legalize it.
I didn’t have an abortion but my child was killed as well. But I had a four feminists in training at Planned Parenthood this week tell me that since I’m a man I can’t have any understanding. I said, “I understand because my wife told me and I listened.”
Then I said, “I have testicles so I am a complete moron and can understand nothing – you have ovaries so you understand the entire universe perfectly – do you realize how sexist that is?”
They got sorta quiet then. But what really got them quiet was after asking if they’d had abortions (since I’d never had a pro-abortion person admit their abortion) – they said that abortion was fantasmigorical and then when I asked if they’d seen an abortion performed on youtube or this movie Lake of Fire, they got very quiet and looked very ashamed and uncomfortable.
There’s a lot about abortion that no one is saying – and they hide behind this “It’s a woman’s choice”
Since when do we allow any choice to be allowed simply by virtue that “it’s a choice” – “choice” has become a symbol in our culture, a word that has no real meaning because it’s overloaded and therefor made completely abstract and something that cannot be argued against.
My wife will happily get on here and tell you the same thing, but you wouldn’t listen. She has ovaries last time I checked.
Yet I’m sure Fox was extremely surprised at the response he got.
Wow, I think this thread may have broken a record for hit-and-run comments. At least it’s not as bad as the Kurt Warner threads when people thought that this was a Sports site. :P
> The real hypocrites are the ones who criticize the non-religious for not being open-minded or civil enough, and then leave as soon as their points are refuted, and then are stubbornly determined to have the last word, too.
Wow, so do we leave or do we stick around and have the last word? You’re not making any sense.
Unlike a lot of you, I have children. Also, church tomorrow, can’t spend all night on a runaway blog.
I’m speechless
I like that one. I go sleeveless all summer.
Those poor bears! ;-)
…and you wonder the percentage of people who don’t believe in pastors, priests or god has increased.
Enthusiasm becomes fervor so easily…
I myself prefer to avoid witch hunts when possible.
I guess if he is truly a christian he will confess his own sins to his congregation. I will let it go now.
It IS “mighty humanist” of you.
My objection and resistance to letting it go is that religion – and its attendant hypocrisy – has done so much harm. I like some exposure, embarrassment, and bringing hypocrisy out into the light.
“Let’s haul it out in the middle of the floor and let the cat sniff it.”
-Robert Heinlein
Well, LRA, you really got me there I think I’ll turn atheist now.
I was a pre-med student at Vanderbilt University majoring in Molecular biology at the time of my abortion. I probably know more about evolution than you do and I am unconvinced. My wife was already accepted to med school at Vandy at the time of our abortion, back when Vandy was still 17th in the nation. She could have gone to Harvard if she wanted but went to Vandy because it was an hour from home.
Funny, you can find stories about people who liked their abortion but the fact remains, you can easily find tons and tons more people who regret it.
Google doesn’t lie.
The sad thing is today you sometimes can’t tell a true Christian (Believer) from a Non Christian (Non Believer). In a lot of cases both curse, drink, go to clubs, talk walk and live in the flesh instead of the spirit. Especially, leaders of the churches. Most of them teach wrong doctrine so it’s no wonder the sheep don’t get fed. It should never be about Religion because that is man made and man’s traditions not Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour’s. Most of the church leaders are all about prosperity and not about salvation and truth. You don’t get saved by being a good person as so many people think. You get saved by accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour period. It is a free gift from God and not of works that we do. It’s is purely by God’s mercy and grace we are saved but our choice to accept His gift. He gave us Free Will as Karen stated and that is TRUTH! Everyone can make light of the truth if they want to, just remember God is not mocked. There are only two kinds of people in the world and they are Believers and Non Believers. It’s your choice and if you take this lightly you will be Satan’s company in the Lake of Fire. My Blog is http://NonLukewarm.wordpress.com and I’d love to get some feedback because we need to get God’s truths out and help people draw nearer to God and away from Satan the ruler of this world. God Bless You all.
Me too.
Though I prefer to think it is very humanist of me. :)
Takes a big man to admit when he is wrong. I think pastor Chris and Daniel show what can be accomplished when two people reasonably talk things through. Kudos to you both for acting human in this medium that often insulates us from being human or even accountable.
Sindee R.
Huh, I hope he’s being honest about that apology…and also that he makes an effort to better understand atheists and other pro-choice supporters in the future.
Any bets on the keynote of this Sunday’s sermon at the Kendalls Baptist Church?
This is just shame and retribution, and is a good (bad) example of what “religion” inflicts on a society.
Not that I condone his actions, they were deceptive and regrettable.
But honestly, no one here was hurt in any way by them, confused yes, harmed no.
Mercy me.
So get your sewing kit out…you’ll have plenty of scarlett letters to be mending on sweaters everywhere…adulterers, pornogrophers, prostitutes…its all EXTERNAL and religious in nature.
These are the very things I’ve been sharing with you all along. Ironically we always become like that which we hate…as long as we…hate.
The remedy is an internal change of nature, His within. Spirituality, not religion.
That is very sad. While I’m sure he had the best of intentions, there’s no doubt his actions were wrong.
I think it’s good that you called him out on it.
Well, I’ll provide my own perspective as an aethist, in response to the pastor’s question (no, agnostic really). Religion revolves around Moral teachings but Ethics/ Morals is not a subset of Religion. Ethics and Morals exist independently or religion.
One can be irreligious and still abide by the most conventional social norms/ morals/ ethical standards. In contrast, one can be deeply religious but chooses to trust his own faith/ instinct as opposed to adhering to acceptable social standards.
Pastor, you’re an example of the latter.
So please do not claim that anti-abortion is a special perogative of Christians, or that immorality is a quality unqiue to non-Christians.
Christianity provides an additional pro-life argument, from a religious perspective. Don’t tote your Moral high ground before getting your arguments ironed out, ’cause you’ll fall.
Interesting how people love to look for the “unfaithful or hypocritical Christians” but almost never look for unfaithful and hypocritical atheists, Muslims, Jews, Hindus….It’s like they almost expect Christians to be perfect.
Don’t focus on the followers of a faith, look to the one they follow. Christ!
So what if some guy (even a pastor) lied?! Does that discredit the claims of Christ?! Certainly not!
There is no such thing as a non-hypocritical or faithful ANYONE, actually. Whose standard are you talking about there, “teleprompter”?! Yours? Majority rules?
The Word of God says that “all have fallen short of the glory of God”. ALL!
Again, the focus should not be on sinful men trying to reach up and show themselves approved to God=religion.
The focus should be on God (revealed in Christ) reaching down to us sinful humans and providing us with HIS righteousness=the true and only faith.
So, YES, Christianity is really able to explain this! (And your denying or arguing it does not make it any less true.)
I’m curious about how you were able to find out who he was.
No words need to be said about the article, I think it speaks enough for itself. Just as I think the failings of the individual show that any belief system can produce faulty morals or allow for individual to act in such a way. I am neither aethiest or Christiain but pagan and the same holds true for us.
But I must say I was really impressed in the way in which you forgave his transgression and moved on. Personally I believe a person should act the way you did, strong and upright in the face of attack and yet compassionate in the face of apology!
I am a Christian, and I do believe that lying is sin. Preacher or not. But I also believe in forgiving, and he has apologized and I would never hold against him what he has done. Hang in there preacher. We all fail at some time or other, at some thing or other. I am still human and still just a sinner saved by Grace. I would hope that when I show myself weak, ignorant, or foolish, (which is more often than I would like), that I could count on the forgiveness of those about me, Christian and non-Christian. Still like the site, and still praying for some of you.
Pastor Knight
I love this perspective Clortho! I raised my teenage daughters in church, but when they stopped wanting to go I let them stop. One has since returned to a youth group at a really fundie church, and we have great talks about what I think, what they were raised with and what this church preaches. The other reads books about witchcraft but also prays and believes there is power in the unity of the universe without it having to be “God”. I’m pleased to know other families have had this attitude, and that it works.
I stumbled upon this blog because it was on the homepage and I was curious to hear about this pastor. And it’s definitely interesting what he was doing. I’m not going to pass judgment on the guy though. Just because this guy, and some other “guys” are hypocritical, doesn’t mean that we abandon our beliefs either. It is not Jesus who is being hypocritical, it is the human being that is. I think we often confuse pastors, and those in that kind of position of power, with Jesus himself. Jesus is within us, yes. But God created us with free will. He wants us to want Him. He put us on Earth so we could show our love for Him too! It’s not God who creates evil. It’s Satan! And it’s our free will that allows us to follow that evil, or fight it hard and go with the Lord who died for us and our salvation.
And Clortho, I hope I don’t offend here, but you said, “I’m much smarter than that.” Much smarter than what? I often wonder where people think we get our rules from. Did we make them up? Did our human minds and being make up those rules all by ourselves? I mean, who said it was wrong to kill? Who said it was wrong to be adulterous? God did. God told us these things and human beings compiled all of these “rules” into many different books called the Bible. Whether we like it or not, we are following His rules when we choose to lead a life using our conscience. Where does that conscience come from?
Please understand that I’m trying to understand you and your thinking. For me, it’s very clear. God gave me everything that I have today. God gave me the free will to deny Him, to ignore Him and live my life MY way. But then He helped me open my heart to Him and finally begin to lead a life more like what He had in mind for me. So it’s very clear to me whom I have to thank for the many blessings in my life. So I guess I’m asking you where your life comes from? Do you create your own life? And how did that begin? Do you owe nothing to God and all of it to yourself?
Dear Clortho;
The only part of what you have said that I like, is you know, what’s right from what’s wrong; but the Bible did play apart in your developing understanding concerning these realities! So you may think that being an atheist works for you, but, if you do what you know is wrong, then based upon the Biblicac text, you will still die and go to hell, and become a believer anyway! So to be an atheist, isn’t a realistic comfort zone; the Bible condemns most Bible Teachers and their doctrines; when you accept Matt:5:17-19, 27-30, 48; and John:8:31-36, 51! So please don’t be fooled into believing, or accept the belief that we are just hee as a freak accident; because there is too much in the Bible with world history as a witness, and you know that the Bible is the best moral teacher, even if you think you want to rebel against some of the Teachings that it provides!
May Eloheem Bless you to receive this for what it’s worth!
The Preacher
I know, I miss participating… just so busy lately. I’m definitely still lurking, I just know if I comment, I’ll not be able to stop from coming back incessantly to keep up with the discussion. Must – fight – urge.
As for being annoyed by pastors in general, I got that vibe mostly from your last sentence about the offering.
hell yea thats the way to think. morality can exist without religion. god killed more people in the bible than satan did anyways
Kudos for the pastor for coming clean. While I don’t condone what he did, I can understand why he was driven to do it.
I love your avatar. (big DC/Superman geek here)
For those of you who haven’t noticed, Xians (especially fundies) do not fight fair. With apologies to brilliant bloggers like The Friendly Atheist, we should never worry about hurting feelings or offending religous idiots. Radical, confrontational atheism is the only way to battle against an unreasonable and hateful (ironic I know) foe. Oh, and Gerber Inkl, the pastor did not come clean, he was busted and never admitted guilt. That is not the definition of coming clean.
Good point Calladus…thx for the level headed intervention of mercy, kindness and compassion.
The atheist religion is puzzling to me. In claiming the supposed intellectual higher ground, you resort to writing an entire post on one man’s lying? This happens everyday and under many false pretenses. I don’t care that this man was a minister. I am too but I would not have made the big show of this one man’s situation into a “prove your point” type of event.
I’ve had agnostics, homosexuals, and atheists comment on my blog (as well as many from other faiths) and I’ve privately discussed with each one the choices of words they may have made. In most instances, my readers don’t even know it’s happened because I limit those comments on my site because of the very firestorm it causes. I don’t need pages and pages of finger pointing, name calling, and potential vulgarity.
When a true sense of idea exchange occurs, there’s no need to promote it like a “gotcha” show. It happens all by itself.
God is not moral Alphons…this is a common misconception. There is no morality with God. Morality is a product of the fall, an assortment of left over fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good & evil, that internal tree of Self, of independence whose fruit was death (separation from God).
Wow…go figure. That is pretty sneaky of him, it doesn’t really help his cause very much, especially with the whole “Thou shalt not lie” thing being soundly beaten in the process.
More lying for Jesus.
Or was that *your* attempt at comedy?
As an Atheist, I’ve been told the same thing; that I was more Christian than some of the other Christians on a message board. The context was a news story about a gangbanger was killed and the mother of one of the gangbanger’s victims was happy. The Christians on the board were cheering. I was more, “the world’s a better place without him, but we shouldn’t be rejoicing, every violent death is tragic”. Now tell me, which attitude is more Christian?
you want to meet a real christian? visit this site:
http://esoriano.wordpress.com
then, it’s up to you…
As an atheist I’m offended by the Pastor’s remarks. Just because I don’t believe in God doesn’t mean I don’t have morals. I’m sorry, but don’t go around parading under the banner of Jesus and the golden rule of “love your neighbor as you would love yourself.” That’s just wrong, stop attacking atheists for choosing not to follow religion; we don’t hate you as people, we just question your beliefs.
Your cat can haz salvation?
Perfection is completely, utterly out of step with evolution.
I left a comment a day ago but it only got one reply. I think I presented an interesting question and hope to get some additional feedback. So I am reposting the comment, with some additional thoughts.
It seems to me that the deeper issue here is why people lie. Lying is a very complex matter that comes in many forms. So here’s some food for thought.
David Livingstone Smith, an author and professor at the University of New England, believes that people lie, in part, because humans evolved that way. For Smith, to lie is an unavoidable, natural act that helps society as a whole function. It brings many benefits to those who lie.
He said in a major Brazilian news magazine the following (my translation from Portuguese): “The lie is the pillar of social relations. To tell lies is a tendency as internalized in the human being as the ability to talk and walk. We don’t have a choice not to lie.” (Veja, October 18, 2006, p. 11-15)
You might be interested in reading his book, Why We Lie:The Evolutionary Roots of Deception and the Unconscious Mind (St. Martins Press 2004). He also has other books on this subject.
For the purpose of discussion, let’s just stay within the evolutionary framework. If what Smith says in his books is true, all people are “wired” to lie and it can’t be avoided. Additionally, evolution made us this way because it brings benefits to the liar. This is consistent with the prime mover of evolution, which is the survival of the fittest. Lying is actually good.
So my question is this: If a person operates within the evolutionary framework and accepts Smith’s scientific affirmations, is there a basis to criticize or reprimand the pastor? It seems to me that he was just following his natural wiring, and that in someway it benefitted the natural order.
Any thoughts?
Has anyone ever read the book, “The Prodigal God”? by Tim Keller? It is interesting as it points out two truths that speak to this conversation. The first is that when studying the life of Jesus, those who were known for their religious morals where constantly set in opposition to the message that Jesus lived and taught. The other thing that was refreshing to see, was that in the story of the “prodigal son”, the elder brother was equally lost as the younger who went and squandered his inheritance away. The elder brother was the “righteous, moral one” and he was also the one at the end of the story who remained outsiide of the feast at the father’s house. (Luke 15)
Two groups were present to hear this teaching. The tax collectors and sinners, who did not follow the moral code of the Jewish faith and community expectations, yet they were constantly being drawn to be around Jesus. This first group represented the younger brother, the prodigal son. The other group were the scribes and Pharisees. They were famous for holding to religious moralism and judging others on how they kept the code. They represented the elder brother.
This story is radical for anyone considering atheism. Especially for those who do so because they have been judged and rejected and see the emptiness of religion. Remember that Jesus saw this too, and confronted it on a regular basis. Did you know that first century followers of Jesus were considered atheist, because followers of The Way, did not meet up to all the religious standards.
Let me finish by saying that I grew up in a “fundie church” and was a religious snot. I judged others by how the lived up to “the standard”, while secretly struggling with lust and addiction. I was powerless to break these vices in my life, even though I loved Jesus. My “righteousness” was of my own strength and worthless.
My journey away from “the fundies” and organized religion has led me to a different place than some of the others who have commented on this page. In the midst of my flight from church, I realized that Jesus identified with people like me.
I now am a part of a faith community that is full of recovering elder brothers, and returning younger brothers. We are not perfect, but we try hard to make the gospel about the life and power of Jesus and not our ability to be moral. I still have strong convictions on certain things, (abortion being one of them) but our perspective is way different than what I grew up with. We are not in a argument or fight to try to convince others that our position is right. Rather, we are learning how to really humble ourselves and pray, and ask God to reveal to all how precious every life is.
I hope this comment comes across as more than semantics. I am glad to have stumbled across this sight, where real people can share their views and stories as they journey.
Is it just me, or do I see a non sequitor?
How is Roger being religious?
I find it easier to converse with “out of church christians”.
Pastor in church is just a human,he can commit a sin too. I am not surprised with it. I will just pray for him that he will realized the mistake he made. Hope he is ready to face the consequences.
It wasa shock to me the first time I had encountered an Baptist pastor lying to me, it was a continual shock the next 25 years as well.. it was also a shock how many persons will next back up, still support an immoral pastor.. In fact last week a pastor wrote back to me and he has been abusing me ten times next in one week.. the ends do not juistify the means. Pastors have to live the life as well as to preach it. So does the professing Canadian Christian Prime Minister Stephen Harper..
(1 Tim 5:20 KJV) Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.
(1 Tim 5:21 KJV) I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.
(Mat 18:14 KJV) Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.
(Mat 18:15 KJV) Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
(Mat 18:16 KJV) But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
(Mat 18:17 KJV) And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church:
(1 John 1:9 KJV) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
(1 John 1:10 KJV) If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
http://thenonconformer.wordpress.com/2009/03/12/stephen-harper-conservative-liars/
It also means that God doesn’t understand that we have a different definition of death than he does, or he’s being deliberately deceptive by using a word he knows we’ll misunderstand.
You are right about repentance. I was wriitng in short. I fully understand that in seeing that we are not inherently good, we do need to repent.
I love everybody – you included. I am a very loving person. I love to give hugs and am a people-person. I do not hate anyone. As far as Ray Comfort, I do not know him.
I can’t even begin to get involved in this because Christianity and all other religions have so many holes in them that I could use them all as cheese grinders, but I think it’s pretty ridiculous to follow your zombie prophet who is his own pop. I also think it’s ridiculous to think that once upon a time, some big dude with a white beard made a magical garden and had a bunch of people there and then a snake gave them a fruit and it all went to hell. The fruit, itt, is the Fruit of Knowledge, which says something about the religion as a whole. It’s the same story with most other monotheistic religions. It’s pretty damn crazy if you ask me
I would go further, and say perfection is a meaningless term without a ton of context.
And perfection remains the foundation of christianity. The reason for everything; the bible, salvation, all of it – is the assumption that we are supposed to be perfect. This is a child-like fantasy (if only I had perfect parents, the perfect body, the perfect husband, etc) that we grow out of as we mature. Christianity keeps people mired in childish thought processes. There is nothing perfect. There never was, and never will be. This whole need for salvation (that’s the only way we can be perfect and go to heaven) is a terribly destructive myth. What amazes me is how people just accept it in spite of the obvious problems.
What does perfection mean anyway? I have no idea what it means to be a perfect person.
how could some1 say that it’s perfectly fine to kill babies?? if u ask mi, that guy is psyco if he thinks that is alright.
yes, i respect athiests, but i think its craaazy how they think they can do ANYTHING and it is okay?? laws go by the same rules as God’s law (most of the time) so they should kinda see the picture that it’s wrong.
if God wasn’t real, there would be more chaos than u could imagine on earth.
i rest my case.
yes, i respect athiests, but i think its craaazy how they think they can do ANYTHING and it is okay??
I think it’s really odd that you would drop in and post an extremely stupid lie like you just did.
What would cause a person like yourself to do something like that? It’s obvious that it’s not true, yet you feel justified lying about millions of people you’ve never met Just because they’re not stupid enough to still have imaginary friends .
Now, Kelly, you should go have a long hard think ( think now, don’t believe…idiotic beliefs are what made you a liar) about why it is that you have such complete contempt for yourself that you would prove yourself to be a contemptible liar in front of everybody like this. You are doing *exactly* what the scumbag in the article is being rousted for. Now why would you be so stupid as to do that?
Please try thinking a little bit
Wow… “a different perspective.”
A MADE-UP perspective, as the perspective from which he was writing was what he IMAGINES atheists must be thinking.
Let’s also imagine for a minute that you had not been writing about atheism, that you had been writing about another faith that was not Christianity, and after trying unsuccessfully to proselytize you, this pastor started writing in the same way as someone who practiced your faith. You know, just making stuff up to explore “a different perspective.” “Well, my religion allows for killing babies. My religion sees no problem with murdering women for no reason.”
What he did was disrespectful and ignorant, and bordering on discriminatory and hateful. You can’t have any “perspective” if you have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about where another faith or school of thought is concerned.
I really hope that beyond just issuing you several apologies, the pastor also went out of his way to read some Bertrand Russell or something and learn something about atheism beyond his prejudices. If your faith is really that strong, knowledge isn’t going to shatter it. Just- God forbid- expand your perspective.
Political groupies use the same tactic. They pretend they’re what they oppose and go way over the top.
Agreed!
I have always enjoyed the public forum for debates and arguments. It’s entertaining at the least, and informative at the best.
I agree speaking for others to hear, but I was referring to the “several” emails I received asking a plethora of questions. But, yes, open forum is good for everyone.
This pastor’s comments reveal that he doesn’t really understand people who believe differently from him.
1. No pro-choice person I have ever known would ever say, “What’s wrong with killing babies?” Ever.
2. The atheists I know are highly moral, ethical, and compassionate. I once told an atheist friend whose house was slowly sliding down a hill that I would pray for him. His response: “I’d rather you direct your God’s attention to the children being slaughtered in Africa. I’m sure mothers over there are praying, too, for all the good it’s doing them.” Said friend donates tons of money to charity—compare this to the statistic that 20% of the congregation donates 80% of the support of the church, which presumably, hopefully, does community outreach.
(There’s a blog post on this here: http://www.thinkchristian.net/index.php/2008/12/12/escaping-the-2080-rule-of-church-life/)
So here’s this community of “believers” who don’t support with money what they believe in, which leads one to wonder if they help others in need at all. What is it exactly that they believe in?
Instead of targeting groups of people (prochoicers, atheists, homosexuals) with heaps of judgment, why not get to know one person from each group and find out why s/he believes differently from you?
I should clarify that his house was sliding at a rate of about an inch a year, and his walls were starting to crack, etc. It wasn’t sliding like a mudslide or anything. lol
I largely agree with you, but I think the line between satire and strawman is pretty obvious. If someone can cross it without realising, then that person probably shouldn’t be attempting satire, since they clearly don’t have a good enough understanding of the subject under scrutiny.
In order to satirise something, you have to be familiar with it, and you have to express it in a way that is humourous. If what you’re saying isn’t funny in any way, then you aren’t doing satire, you’re just taking the piss. Nothing particularly wrong with that, but it’s not satire.
Um, I actually do clearly know what eugenics is. I have a feeling you have never heard of it before I mentioned it and then you Googled it. And you call me ignorant. Abortion is one of many tools that the globalists use for genetic population control — it’s in numerous official U.N. publications, as well as many other pro-globalist publications. They have brainwashed dull people like yourself over the years into accepting the notion that it is a “right” or a “choice” to take the life of other people, or to put it better, that there is any justification whatsoever to place a higher value on one’s life over another. I, on the other hand, have studied eugenics for years. You just learned what it means via Google…as pathetic as that is…
Eugenics is more than simple genetic engineering. It involves systematic population control to control genetics, and is a part of the globalism that is unfolding right before your blind-eyes-wide-shut.
Throwing all religion and politics aside, abortion is clearly a moral issue which places the value of one life over another. There isn’t really a need to add the occultist history behind it, although perhaps you may want to do your homework eventually. It might make for a more thoughtful argument, rather than just repeating the same old line, time after time…
As for whether or not life begins at conception, do the egg and sperm cells that are alive before conception, die after conception all the way until the baby is born –do they become alive again right before the baby is separated from the womb? It does not take a scientist nor the Pope to answer that simple question, only a sensible mind.
You people act as if a baby is just a parasite in the womb. You refer to it as cells.
Have you ever heard anyone ask a pregnant mother-to-be about her cells, or her fetus? It’s a baby!
Read my other comments. I said that a nine year old girl should not get an abortion, and I gave the reasons as to why — it is a matter of innocence vs. choice. A molested little girl did not choose to have sex, and giving birth will literally tear her insides apart. However, again, we are only talking about less than one percent of all abortions in that argument. I would call that a special exception.
I never even meant to place religion into the argument, except in response to what someone else already said. I believe that five nested replies are the limit on this website, so I have to start a newer thread for you to post your raging and hateful filth in order to bash me with…
Also, I never said that the mother is the evil person in this. It is the person performing the abortion that is truly evil. Do you have any idea how this procedure is done? There is nothing more medically insane or disgusting morally.
I just love how pro-abortion people get all crazy when someone actually has a thoughtful argument against it.
I agree the atheists’ fascination with christians is WHY they believe – in the face of overwhelming evidence/common sense against it, the many evil things attributed to god in the bible..(I could quote HUNDREDS of them) and yet you believe that christianity is a force for good. I was a former christian, but now that I’ve been out of it so long it’s hard for me to remember why I believed it, other than I always assumed what I had been taught was true. Once i started looking for myself, I realized more and more over time how absurd it was. But I feel the goodwill and sincerity from christians on this site. I know you really believe what you say. The question remains – why?
Except for illuminate just how horrible a lot of the people who believe in God really are.
It is sad that someone an entire community of people look up to as a guide, would be so poorly grounded in his own morals and beliefs.
I do realize that pastors, like everyone else, are only human, but it is part of their chosen (or “called” as most say) profession to be extra careful in all they say, do, and, yes, even type.
It was good of you to call him on it, and even better for him to man-up and admit the mistakes.
With people like him out there giving religion a bad name it is hard for anyone to keep their faith in anything these days.
I think the pastor’s actions show more than just his own hypocrisy, that of Christians, etc. I think that this year we are just beginning to confront the damage that short-term thinking causes.
Every time I see a blog response–anywhere–where the person doesn’t have a clickable ID allowing me to see their own blog or an e-mail address to respond them directly, I KNOW there’s a high likelihood that this is a poster who doesn’t want me to take their words seriously and may just be “stuffing the ballot box” with a lot of name-calling and zero content to their argument.
Just last week, Jon Stewart gave us that nasty peek inside the mind of a hedge-fund manager (Jim Cramer) who believed it was alright to lower the market through selling and rumor-mongering in order to profit on short-selling. My 10th grade History teacher taught us about the evils of short selling and buying and selling a stock without ever truly owning a share. It was a major factor in the Depression of the ’30’s.
Yet, day traders of today will label themselves as necessary to the market.
In 12-step groups one of the messages is “principles over personalities.” When will our civil society realize that business has to follow the basic principle that short-term gains made using poor principles (or ignoring the good ones) are not gains worth having? We are going to be remembered as one of the nations that put off trying to stop global warming when we refused to sign an imperfect Kyoto Treaty. If business was going to be harmed by trying to solve our problems, will we value that business as highly as a Midwestern desert and an inundated Manhattan?
I TOO PREFER TO DISCUSS THE CROOKED CANADIAN EVANGELICALS AND THE BAD POLITICAL CONSERVATIVES FIRST, THE INITIAL TOPIC I HAD ADDRESSED, FOR JUDGMENT BEGINS IN THE HOUSE OF GOD FIRST. CONSERVATIVES NEED TO REMOVE THE BEAM OUT OF THEIR OWN EYES BEFORE THEY TRY TO HELP OTHERS STILL TOO. THEY NEED TO BE FREED FROM THE BONDAGE OF CRITICAL SPIRIT, HATRED AND ABUSIVE NAME-CALLING. THE TRUTH IS THE CONSERVATIVES DO HAVE AN AGENDA, TO HIDE THE TRUTH AS TO WHO THEY REALLY ARE BY DIVERTING IT TO AN ATTACK ON OTHERS AND THEY NEXT DO TRY FORCE THEIR UNSOLICITED MUSINGS AND OPINIONATED RUBBISH ON OTHER PEOPLE -THEY DO HAVE HAVE TO STOP THEIR ABUSIVE HARASSMENT BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE JUST FED UP OF IT.
THE CONSERVATIVES’ MAIN STRATEGY THESE DAYS STILL WRONGFULLY TOO SEEMS TO BE A PERSONAL ATTACK ON OTHERS, BULLYING, BASHING AND TRYING REAL HARD TO FIND SOME, ANY DIRT UPON OTHERS. THEY CLEARLY TEND TO HAVE AN ATTACK APPROACH, AN OFFENSE IS A SUPPOSEDLY best defense for them, BUT STILL it is offensive approach, for you know how they do threat others is next how they will also treat you,. They CONSERVATIVES ARE Getting real desperate still and have again sunk to a new low
>THE RECORD DOES NOT LIE … OFTEN IT MERELY TWISTS THE TRUTH, DISTORTS IT ..
> I AM UN-MASKING YOU AND REBUKING YOU …. AWAY WITH YOUR SELF-RIGHTEOUSNESS
>KEEP YOU conservative self-righteousness on your own blog…
YES THAT WAS AN INSULT, LIE TOO, ME BEING CALLED A CONSERVATIVE EVEN by him.. EVEN YOU ALL DO KNOW I AM NOT A CONSERVATIVE. that would Be a BIG insult to me.
IT IS JUST AS INSULTING AS CALLING CANADA’S PRIME MINISTER STEPHEN HARPER A CHRISTIAN, WHO UNDENIABLY IS a wolf in sheep clothing, an liar, an abuser, an ungodly person, and GOING TO HELL, HE TOO NEEDS TO GROW UP… Now do all deal with it appropriately cause he and not me is bringing shame to the CONSERVATIVE name and even the the body of Christ.. he Harper clearly lies when he says he advocates peace, he himself promotes hate instead.. he LIKE MANY OTHER CONSERVATIVES needs to first take the beam out of his own eye before he can humbly help others.
Many people have it wrong for they do think they have a right to abuse others with their free speech even on the net now too.. when someone aggressively now wants his right to be heard but he also starts to fight with me.. in a clearly unloving manner I do rightfully too merely delete his post too.. if he persist I do often bring the matters often to others for their attention and action now too..
Like I have rightfully often said to you the political Conservatives these days are great examples of what the typical phony, no good, lying, abusive, professing Conservative Christians now really are like. Yes often all I get now is continual condemnations, slanders, insults, bad words, and no real love from the conservatives THESE DAYS .. they need to now grow up and act like real Christians.. examine themselves firstly if the fruits of the holy sprit are there.. cause clearly they are not. What they often do accuse me off very likely they are conscious cause these are their own realties.. sad too..
If I was them I would be rightfully ashamed to pretend to be a Christian to others. Now they need to repent and Get a real life in Jesus still.
I do not have to accept any abuses of any kind.. from anyone now too.. anyone. NOT ESPECIALLY FROM PASTORS.
(Mat 18:14 KJV) Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.
(Mat 18:15 KJV) Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
(Mat 18:16 KJV) But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
(Mat 18:17 KJV) And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church:
http://thenonconformer.wordpress.com/2009/03/21/conservatives-in-canada-are-known-for-their-lies-and-hypocrisy/
BTW, we cleared the 1,000 comment mark on this post.
I’m not sure if we should celebrate or cry…
does anyone else have doubts as to whether or not abe frogman is a real person or another cut-out like pastor chris pulled off?
What, no cartwheels for Jesus?
It’s like talking to a brick wall… The New World Order is not a Christian fundamentalist conspiracy theory. It involves all people. You have proven to me that you are totally brainwashed. It actually has nothing to do with the Bible in my view, and I am not a fundamentalist Christian, whatever that even means.
I suppose that the link I left to Google News with hundreds of mainstream articles about the announcement of the New World Order isn’t enough for you to wake up. Many of the articles suggest that the NWO will be wonderful and save us all from chaos.
It is openly being announced in mainstream publications such as Time, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, by Gordon Brown, Barack Obama, Bill Clinton, both Bush’s, Henry Kissinger, Lou Dobbs — ALL CONSPIRACY THEORISTS RIGHT?
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1877388,00.html
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123084068194547123.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bKwH3kJew4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rc7i0wCFf8g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1etgsNU46s4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8l6Af74rCY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVcBMe5qaus
There are just a few links to get you started. There are hundreds more, and if you actually take the time to accept the truth, rather than make fun of me for actually telling it, you will find so much more of it.
If that doesn’t convince you, then I do not know what I can do to help you. By the way, there is no such thing as “liberal media”. There is also no such thing as a left vs. right paradigm. That is only a myth for people to be distracted about the truth. NYT, WJS, LAT, Fox, CNN, NBC, ABC, CBS, BBC, and so forth have very little difference, and they are all controlled corporate media, in other words, the news you get from them is the news that they want you to see, and only the news that they WANT you to see.
The NWO is not a conspiracy theory, only a conspiracy. It has nothing to do with Christianity. But I love how you tried to categorize me with “those people.”
Yes, I happen to be a Christian, as are most Americans, but that has very little to do with anything I’ve talked about here. And I never once called myself a “conservative.” I do not subscribe to linear politics. And I realize that there is very little difference between Democrats and Republicans, especially since Obama is continuing most of the Bush policy, and almost every Republican and Democrat voted for the Patriot Act and the unnecessary war in Iraq that has killed over a million Iraqis — a war that did not end on Inauguration Day, despite campaign promises.
No, I am not a pastor. I can appreciate that humor of the sarcasm and the cynicism, but when it comes to the NWO, that is truly no laughable matter.
By the way, how did we get so far off topic? Oh yeah, you were trying to smear my character.
@ Karen and CSF If Yahweh of the bible deceives for greater purposes, could it not be argued by fervent Christians that deceiving in order to bring about a greater good such as converting souls to Christ is acceptable.
Otherwise why put passages like that in the bible. Don’t you clearly think that these passages could be misused by dictators, despots and super radical politicians and church officials to willfully mislead people in the wrong direction.
Or to deceive and control for personal gain.
If a christian says that we should strive to be god like. Why cant that mean striving to be like the god in these verses -
-1 Kings 22:23 Yahweh has put a lying spirit into the mouth of all these your prophets.
Ezekiel 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.
2 Thess. 2:11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie… -
Whats up with your god doing these things. Also maybe these verses justify what the Pastor did.
Out of curiosity if Yahweh is so great, wise and powerful how come Christians would have to GO THERE to prove their case.
How come Yahweh dosent help Christians with thier debate skills, you guys are taking a beating on the merits of whole argument.
Ha!
Is that what the kids are calling it these days?
Well, I definitely don’t believe in deception to prove a point.
However, that statement was not too far removed from reality. Most abortions happen because of poverty and too many mouths to feed. Plus, if there is no right and wrong, abortion would be fine. Furthermore, murder, slavery and theft would be fine too. Choice is not enough. There has to be compassion in the choice, for all parties (woman and baby).
What that guy did wasn’t cool. But be careful not to characterize All christians as liars. Just as with any other group of people, there’s going to be someone who does wrong things. I’m a born again believer and I try to do the right thing, not all of us are bad.
Thank you, sir.
A generous comment to the many Conservative bashers, bullies, that would be even more politically correct in troublesome times is that they now are getting what they had sowed starting in the once Bible belt of Alberta.. but not limited to there now too..
It was in Alberta where I had encountered, experienced now the most crooked pastors too.. and I next rightfully also did not let them get away with it. Or anywhere else for that matter..
This site http://postedat.wordpress.com/2009/03/24/conservatives-in-canada/ is specially made to post my valid, detailed complaints against the so called Christian or Christian Conservatives who do like to bully, bash others but hate to look into the mirror daily.
I HAVE OFTEN FELT THAT CONSERVATIVES IS DEFINED AS CON servants.. cause they are often mostly trying to con others as to how good they are and how bad others are too..
Your right…I wish people would stop calling themselves Christians when they merely want to follow the sound of their own voice. I am glad you found him!!
There are NO people that are “Christ-like.”
“Christ-like” is an IMPOSSIBLE ideal. It is a struggle to live up to standards of perfection (standards set by MEN in a TRIBAL and, later, an IMPERIAL society). What exactly are those standards anyway? The Bible is contradictory on the matter.
Also, what is the precise definition of a “real christian”? Who decided that? When, where and how what this decided? (Council of Nicea, perhaps?) Who is “in” and who is “out”?
It is a fallacy to claim that there are true Christians, just as it is a fallacy to claim anyone is “Christ-like”.
Why do you write “pastor” — are you trying to claim that he isn’t somehow a real pastor?
Way to keep up the image of faith pastor! *thumbs down*
“genocide, murders, rapes, and baby-killing of the psychopathic god of the bible.”
Janet, Jesus did not do any of these things. He stood against them. PEOPLE did these things. Faith isn’t the problem, human beings are.
Plus Janet, the God of the Old Testament may have done things that we consider objectionable now. But at the time, people saw that as a God being just and fair to his people. As opposed to the previous gods who only cared about making people wimper with fear.
We can’t just read the Bible, it needs to be probably understood and analyzed.
Agreed Christiandom has produced completely despicable and ugly things (slavery, genocide, etc.). However reason has produced many terrible things as well (nuclear bombs, Hitler/Nazis, etc).
I must also note that in the black community, Christianity has produced some of the greatest american humanitarians. (Harriet Tubman, Frederick Douglass, Sojourner Truth, W.E.B. Dubois, Rev C.T. Vivian, Dr. Martin Luther King, Rev. Robert Graetz, James Cone, Cornell West, Michael Eric Dyson, etc.)
the bible talks about following the “spirit of the law” rather than just the “letter of the law” and ultimately I think this is what accounts for such drastic differences in interpretation. 2 Corinthians chp 3 talks about how the letter of the law (fundamentalist literalism) kills and brings death.
I think it is hard to argue that people who have shaped their life after Christ rather than merely following a bunch of ancient rules are less intellectual, less compassionate, or less humanitarian than the rest of the society. I think that history will suggest the opposite.
Surely, this will not convince anyone to suddenly follow Jesus, but rather hopefully it can at least build bridges between those who care about the mutual benefits of serving all humanity and creating a better society now and for the future.
The conservative moment does not reflect the life of Jesus at all, rather if anything it mirrors the lives of the Pharisees, Jesus’ constant opponents.
Typical. This is the evil of Christianity—it’s okay to do anything, all you have to do is say sorry. No accountability, no responsibility, and if it causes human suffering here on earth, why that’s okay too. Because it doesn’t matter if you suffer here, your rewards are in heaven. What a load of bs. He only apologized because he got caught. Truth is the bible thumpers can’t tell if something is right or wrong unless they are specifically told.
I live up to the standards set by my Western (and specifically American and even more specifically Texan) ideals as developed since about 1978 (when I have my first memories).
In other words, I don’t condone slavery (but the bible does– in the OT.) Also, I don’t condone selling daughters in to slavery that may or may not result in marriage, nor in committing genocide.
I also don’t condone always doing what my government tells me to do (but the bible does in the NT). I believe cases like Roe v. Wade are important instances of revising our government. Additionally I don’t believe in stoning people, as found in the NT.
In other words, my “ideals” (which are culturally constructed and appropriate for the time I live in) are superior (in my opinion) to the ideals of people living 2000 years ago. See, I have history from which to learn– they didn’t have that benefit. So while I am not judging their actions in their culture and their time, I am saying those behaviors are INAPPROPRIATE for my culture and my time.
Lanii: “*sigh* Unfortunately there have been a lot of people, Christians included, who don’t understand the Bible or what they believe. It’s very sad. So let me straighten you and any other wrong-thinking Christian or non-Christian reading this.”
Good grief!……”sigh”, indeed. Can you please demonstrate, using some sort of objective reasoning, if not evidence, that you possess the special powers that evidentally make you exempt from human error, thus, making *your* intepretation of the Bible the One True Interpretation, while all those “wrong-thinking” Christians evidentally have a strange proclivity to error, making their interpretations “wrong”? To be clear, I don’t mean simply asserting that you are “right”.
Also, one can “strive” to live a compassion-filled life, as well as strive to behave ethically, and despite that all human beings ocassionally fall short of this, a belief in Divine, invisible beings is not necessary.
Oh, and Daniel, welcome to sanity!
Ummmm. No. No god that hates women that much is my god. Sorry.
Allah is no one’s god…not even yours.
Demonstrate some evidence that shows he exists, and I’ll consider it.
In the mean time, why should I believe in Allah and not Vishnu or Yahweh?
Ouias! And the writer called the pastor a “zozo”. I’d love to know what that means!
“OK Herald – let me clarify. You are saying that it used to be ok for God to command horrible acts because it was culrural. You are saying that God’s morality is not timeless”
I am saying people’s interpretation of God is not timeless. Catholicism teaches that our interpretation of God changes and expands as we grow as a people and as a culture. Again, neither believers nor athiests should take the Bible as the main world on faith. :)
“OK Herald – let me clarify. You are saying that it used to be ok for God to command horrible acts because it was culrural. You are saying that God’s morality is not timeless”
I am saying people’s interpretation of God is not timeless. Catholicism teaches that our interpretation of God changes and expands as we grow as a people and as a culture. Again, neither believers nor athiests should take the Bible as the main word on faith. :)
Excuse me?
I was raised in the church (nondemominational). In addition I attended church as an adult (Baptist).
I know A LOT about the church, including its dirty little secrets.
It took me a LONG time to get out of that mind numbing crap.
With all due respect, I suggest it is YOU who knows little about the church.
HIs latest reply here shows he is still doing it, he doesn’t seems to know what his problem is, sadly.
Also…
My comment stems from the fact that I am the child of a deacon of a fairly large church in Dallas. He was abusive to me, and when I took it to his pastor (later as an adult), I was dismissed and told, even if he did this (and they wouldn’t admit that he did) that god had long since forgiven him. My dad still won’t make it right with me.
This is not the only time the church has swept the abuse of children under the rug. Catholic church has some very dirty secrets (well not so much secret any more) concerning its pediaphile priests, doesn’t it?
Wow. Your “church” looks better and better all the time doesn’t it.
“Secondly, what you describe as being responsible and an ‘adult’ is quite literally outlined in the Bible as our protocol for when there are problems between us. Matthew 5 says you have to go make it right with that person before you can give your offering to God. Matthew 18 lays out that you should first try to straighten it out between the two of you before you bring other people into it.
I don’t really need to go on, do I? ”
There is no denying that christianity is one of the major religion in this world, but,
Is there some sparks going on?
” Matthew 5 says you have to go make it right with that person before you can give your offering to God. Matthew 18 lays out that you should first try to straighten it out between the two of you before you bring other people into it.”
The problem is that people disagree with what is good and what is not. My dad saw NO problem with what he did to me (you know spare the rod and all). But study after study (and my own personal experience) shows that abusing kids leads to all kinds of problems. For me it was depression.
The bible takes people’s power of reason away. The bible condones hurting kids. The bible LITERALLY has more to say about MONEY then about how to raise healthy and happy kids. I reject it for this reason.
To borrow a phrase from C.S. Lewis, I was “surprised by joy” upon leaving the ministry and evangelicism. I wouldn’t go back to that unhealthy lifestyle for anything.
So is your point is that, no matter how you slice it, Christians have no chance at ‘winning’ their ‘argument’?
If so, then I guess that’s your opinion and you’re entitled to it. However, I would guess that there are a lot of pastors and missionaries out there who would disagree.
LOL.
There is more! There is a life! Blah, blah, blah woocakes.
I say, if he called me “Rog” to my face, there might be bloodshed.
Thx Barry…I caught that one. I wouldnt mind at all sitting by Rog…not so sure he would feel the same, lol.
All the best.
(sorry for posting that last thing twice in two different places – Internet problems)
LRA – I’m very sorry for what your father did to you. I didn’t have a great father figure for many years myself. And while I do not think a comment wall is an appropriate forum for this, it’s my only avenue so…
Your father is not God. He’s not the church. He’s not even a good representative of the church or God. You know that, obviously. But there are many, many wonderful pastors and wonderful churches in the world. So what is Christianity all about? The people who worship a God or the God Himself? Well, it’s both but the crux is the God Himself. And He’ll be known by his fruits just like man will. The Bible says it as well but it’s a universal law: a good tree bears good fruit and a bad tree bears bad. But does that mean we should never let any trees grow because some of them may bear bad fruit? Of course not. The bad ones are a tragedy but they’re not an example of what a tree should be. Try judging Christianity and God off of a solid, respectable Christian pastor and see what you’re conclusion is.
You quote the Matthew scriptures I presented and then say that we can’t decided on what’s right and what’s wrong. Not only do those two things not go together but that’s simply not true. The Bible is abundantly clear on what’s right or wrong, starting with the 10 Commandments. And those scriptures I referenced aren’t about right and wrong – they’re about dealing with personal relationship problems which was directly addressing your accusation that Christians don’t have to deal with problems but, rather, just pray and they’re fine. Why is it so hard for atheists to admit when they’re wrong? It’s mind-boggling. I rarely encounter an atheist that has the humility and wherewithal to admit he/she has got it wrong on one point or another. They always ignore it and try to bring up something else altogether unrelated.
Every one and every institution in this fallen world has ‘dirty little secrets’. But that doesn’t mean we should throw them out. People take advantage of welfare but that doesn’t make the idea inherently wrong or mean that it can’t be a positive system. Some people use politics for a personal platform and others use it to help people who need it – that doesn’t make politics inherently bad. The same applies to Christianity.
LRA – I understand where you’re coming from and why you feel that way. But if there is even the slightest part of you that thinks maybe this whole God thing could be true I would suggest to you that you stop looking at bad examples, stop looking at your past pain, stop looking at the passages that confuse or upset you (and they do so because you, no offense, lack the revelation understanding – not just in a Christianese way but literally in the dictionary definition, which is the same) and look to God and what He says about Himself and you. That you are created for a destiny that is more amazing than you can even imagine and that He loves you, even when you don’t love Him.
What your Father did was wrong – we can agree on that. And you can be sure that God will deal with Him. I’m very sorry that that happened to you and I hope that one day you can reconcile to him and to God.
Finally – yes, my church does look good. Just like my America looks good even though we’re going through tough times and have and have had leaders who’ve made bad decisions.
It’s got its problems and I contribute to those at times. But it’s got great people in it as well. We’re a family and hopefully, through love, we can work out our differences, our failings and work together towards our common goal.
Goodnight, LRA. May you find peace.
Llani-
Again- you yourself have demonstrated the problem with christianity. I’m not being stubborn here. I just don’t think you are right.
First you said that I must not have any experience with the church. You said that I must have gleaned it off of this blog.
I provided you evidence of my experience with the church and explained to you why my EXPERIENCE allowed me to REASON that churches are full of hypocrites (not saying that they aren’t full of nice people, but if these people rarely live what the bible actually tells them to do!)
Churches are full of people who live by situational ethics– as I do. Yet they claim to be universalists. That is hypocritical. (It doesn’t mean they aren’t nice people).
Next, you tell me that I just haven’t been to the right church. Well, I tried about a dozen churches or so and kept coming up with the SAME conclusion. How many more churches do you want me to try? Which denomination, pray tell, is the correct one? Please inform us.
You see, we have denominations BECAUSE people CAN’T agree on what is the RIGHT interpretation of the bible. Do YOU have it? Do you know with any certainty that YOUR interpretation of how the bible tells us to live our lives is the CORRECT one? If so then HOW do you know?
You see my point?
This question doesn’t just apply to Christianity and all its myriad of permutations… it is a question for religion in general. How do you know that you picked the right one? Further, how do you know this with any semblance of certainty?
Until you can answer those questions, I’m sorry, but you will continue to lose arguments, not only with me, but with other former believers on this site (and there are plenty).
Now, just to clarify… I have decided the best thing to do is to educate myself so that I may make informed and reasonable choices about my life. Coming to the conclusion to quit religion all together took years for me to decide. You see, I LEARNED from my experiences. I don’t stick with tired old arguments that have not been properly evaluated. And had the CHURCH actually been what it claimed to be, none of that would have been necessary. I would have found my answer there, and Jesus would have been it.
Instead all I found was more questions– hard questions that people couldn’t answer. Questions that had NO satisfactory answers in the bible.
No wonder church numbers dwindle over the years (with the occasional spike in desperate times).
I like it Reck…here’s another one for ya that you may have seen me use the other day…”all new truths start out as blasphemy’s”…GBS.
The Truth is better than we could ever imagine…so we dont.
All the best.
Lanii,
I can’t speak for LRA, but I do know quite a bit about Christianity, and so do many atheists (even many of those who were never Christians).
One of the problems with “Christian morality” is that it doesn’t explain why Buddhists or Hindus or Confucians or Sikhs or agnostics are decent and moral people.
How does Christianity account for this discrepancy?
LRA
What you gained in ‘experience’ in church you did not gain in knowledge. You don’t understand the scriptures and what they mean, naturally or supernaturally. As I have pointed out in several instances already.
To use an analogy, it would be like a sculpting major taking an advanced physics class and calling it confusing and frustrating and saying that all its students are uppity know-it-alls. Is it really that way or is that the opinion of someone who doesn’t understand the material in the first place? It’s not an issue of being smart – don’t get me wrong. I don’t say any of this is as an insult but simply as the truth – if you believe in that sort of thing.
I, too, have gone on a spiritual quest. I was disheartened by what I saw as hypocrisy in a church I attended (and yes, some denominations have a better grasp than others but I would say it’s less about denominations and more about specific churches and their pastors). I was in high school and there were some pastor’s kids who I knew were having sex and drinking and doing drugs outside of church but who were still getting to lead songs and speak to the youth. Obviously, that pissed me off. Whether or not their parents or church leaders knew about their behavior, I don’t know. I guess I assumed that God should have taken care of it and He wasn’t. So I stopped going to church.
I had quite a few, and still do if you can believe it, friends at different stages of belief and non-belief: Muslim, Agnostic, American Indian, Jehovah’s Witness. And after many conversations I decided that they all sounded too weird (ha! I know, Christianity has its own weird parts) and contrived. I felt like most of them were trying to make excuses for their differences from Christianity (among other issues I had with them).
It was at this point in my life that I think, and I’m just kind of thinking through this right now, that I could really call Christianity my own. I realized that it wasn’t just a building and just a bunch of messed up people trying to get right but that it was, like most things in life, what I made of it. I could call myself a Christian, like those other kids did, and live a life contrary to that, hoping I get a chance to say “Forgive me” in my dying breath. I could call myself a Christian and ‘be a good person’ but never open my Bible or pray. Or I could be the real deal, with God’s strength. And I could set myself on a path to find what Christianity is really meant to be because I knew that it wasn’t that fakery, hypocrisy. I knew that couldn’t be it.
So I went back to church. And I sat by myself for a while. And I tried to focus on GOD and not what who was wearing or who was with who or what so and so did last night. And, like I said, it changed my life and it changed the way I viewed and understood God. And, in a way, I have kind of been on a mission since – in a casual, take-it-as-it-comes way – to help people get their focus off of other people’s problems and get their focus on God.
To me, it’s much more reasonable to ask “Why does God allow bad things to happen to good people?” than it is to ask “Why did this Christian hurt me?” Well, they hurt you because they’re messed up. I don’t know how else to say it. But never again will I allow another human being to separate me from God.
Like Paul said, “not that I have already attained all this.” I have certainly gone off the rails at several points and became the very thing I hated – like those kids. And I would hate for someone to have taken a snapshot of that hypocritical time in my life and posted it, say, in Wikipedia in the entry on Christianity. But you know what it means to be saved? It means reconciliation between man and God – it means not that you won’t fall down but that you’ll get up and keep running, keep fighting, keep flying.
A better picture of Christianity isn’t some smiley, “Look at how perfect I am” preacher. It’s a drug addict, still coming off a high, on his knees, asking God for forgiveness and strength to stay clean. It’s a woman about to commit adultery who stops outside the door to the motel room, says, “No”and leaves.
And if you and other atheists continue to leave no room for Christians to fail, holding every sin against them and holding each accountable for the sins of all Christendom, then not only are all your arguments in vain but you will never truly comprehend what it means to be a follower of Christ.
Let me leave it at this and I know you and others will say it’s a cop out but oh, well:
Some things can’t be argued out. Getting into debates about religion can be very interesting and fruitful but in the end it’s between you and God and your heart and your decision. I can explain to you why I love my husband but that’s not going to make you fall in love with him. Falling in love is beyond logic and quantifiable data. Just like God is.
I hope that little bit about me helps you to understand where I’m coming from better. I appreciate you sharing what you did because it helped me understand you. Part of being human and especially Christian is having relationships with people and being willing to work through the kinks, build trust and understanding. Can one do that through a comment board, I don’t know?
LRA – I’m not dismissing it. That’s my point. Have I said you shouldn’t feel the way you do? No. But I have said you shouldn’t keep feeling that way.
Since when is that not good advice, regardless of religion?
“Righteous indignation is a mean between envy and spite, and these states are concerned with the pain and pleasure that are felt at the fortunes of our neighbours; the man who is characterized by righteous indignation is pained at undeserved good fortune, the envious man, going beyond him, is pained at all good fortune, and the spiteful man falls so far short of being pained that he even rejoices.” — Aristotle
“Anger is a gift.” — Zach de la Rocha
Exactly! My anger is moral in its basis. It indicates my judgment of wrong doing by people who supposedly espouse truth seeking and moral integrity.
Why are you here wasting time, you cold be helping someone come on. Don’t be hypocritical.
Note to John C: I’m not actually calling you a retarded baby. To be honest, that was probably uncalled for, and I apologise.
“I’ve posted a few times on YEC’ers blogs, only to have my comments disappear for the sin of containing actual evidence that they can’t answer, for example”
Yeah, that happened to me on the “Creation Letter Project”.
Calling me not intelligent doesnt bother me, but not polite? I have always tried to be very polite in light of all the hostility and name-calling I receive. But if I have ever not been polite, please accept my sincere apologies, I mean that from the middle of the middle of me to the middle of the middle of you.
I really, really do.
Hitler’s assumptions were also based on what was believed to be scientific evidence proving superiority of some and inferiority of others. But that misses the point all together, unless you claim that no atrocities are by-products of enlightenment or rationalistic thinking???
My point is.. people are people and do wrong to one another out of selfishness, for personal gain, etc. It is not just religious people that do wrong to one another. however, People historically who shape their life after Christ practically and relevantly in the 21st century have a much different story than the literalistic fundamentalist religion posing as Christianity.
“@Herald7 – ok – so you do not believe that the bible is God-inspired or god-written? Obviously you don’t. Do you consider yourself a christian? On what basis? (I’m not trying to be a smartass here – I really don’t know – every christian I know believes that the bible is the inspired and holy word of god so I don’t know where you’re coming from). There is no point in arguing the veracity of the bible if you don’t believe it either. Then you and I are on the same page.”
It’s OK, I don’t you’re not being a smartass, hehe. It’s just that some denominations of Christianity take the Bible more literally than others. Catholics believe the Bible was God-inspired, but we also know that the humans who wrote it were occasionally wrong. Like my religion textbook as a kid said people in the bible who were said to be possessed by demons were probably just mentally ill.
Catholics take the Bible very seriously but they also take other things into account to that have been accumulated over the centuries. This concept is called “Tradition.” Like the Bible says all unbelievers are doomed. Just the other my priest was saying that doesn’t mean non-Christians are all going to Hell. It is recongized that good works are more important than your particular religion.
Now human beings aren’t perfect and obviously these rules haven’t always been followed through history. But the same can be said of all religious and all athiests. We all fail sometimes. Don’t judge others based on the actions of a few. ;)
*Correction: I meant to say “I don’t think you’re being a smartass, hehe.”
I agree, it was pseudo-science that Hitler had. And by the way that’s a great show and a great quote, however the problem is none of us can approach science without bias. We are all bringing something to the table when we “interpret” the evidence. The mere hypothesis we choose will always be directing our thinking, along with our own baggage, presuppositions, context, and community we were raised in. Neither Faith nor Science have the ability to be fully objective, science will always remain a subjective field, which is why our understanding of facts is constantly changing in the field of science.
I don’t mind people discussing Hitler and all but my personal opinion is that Hitler was insane and not a good example of either science or faith. ;)
No need to get aggravated… just trying to dialogue, if you have some insights I am more than open to hearing you. And you are right, I am not in the field of science, however as I understand it, interpretation is apart of the human experience. I do not carry the belief that individuals have the capacity to hold completely objective views. So even when the facts are the same, people can conclude drastically different things. Potentially if we ever had all the pieces to the puzzle (the data) then we could potentially put it all together in a way that was ultimately conclusive. Yet if I understood you right, you admit that we do not have access to all the data, because we continue to find more and more, which changes our interpretation and conclusion.
I guess I just am not modernist enough to go with the science reveals all stuff. Science is helpful, it has given us lots of break-throughs, but it is still a limited field because it always will involve limited people.
I am amazed at the misquotes of the Bible that are stated in this blog. God is a just God. He created mankind and does not have to justify His actions to anyone. Period. He created life and He created laws, which time and time again have been abused by man. He attempted many times (in the old testament) to appeal to the hearts of man, He warned them to turn back to Him, many times to no avail. His wrath came after warning – man had his chance. Life is like that. No one – Christian or not, can deny that consequences, both good and bad, are a result of our actions. No one can argue that. It is fact. Some in society today want to do what they please with no consequence but that doesn’t mean they will get away with things simply because it just doesn’t work that way. Take for example the law of gravity. It is a law that is there and we are to obey it, work in harmony with it. Let’s say a sign on top of a building tells us not to go too close to the edge. If we do, we fall off because of gravity. Have we broken the law of gravity by denying it? No – the law of gravity has actually broken us because it is and always will be… much like the living God. God is and always will be.
The mention of slavery is also taken out context. The Bible was not pro-slavery – especially in the sense that our society uses the word or views slavery. Jesus himself, God in the flesh, washed the feet of his disciples. His teaching was that a master is not greater than his slave and that the meek shall inherit the earth. Jesus came to redeem us because man is incapable of being sinless. Even Peter, one of His most beloved disciples, denied knowing the Lord when faced with consequences of admitting to being His follower. But God forgave Peter and God will forgive anyone who comes to Him with a repentant heart and asks for forgiveness.
There is no other God or belief in this world that offers that kind of unconditional love and forgiveness. Only Christ alone offers and can provide that. He is awesome!
So whether you choose to believe it or not, or follow it or not, just like the example of gravity, choosing not to believe in something does not make it untrue. It just means that you will suffer the consequences that comes from not complying, and not reap the benefits (blessings & favour) of working in harmony with it.
Shalom (Peace)
So you’re point is that, no matter how you slice it, Christians have no chance at ‘winning’ their ‘argument’?
Ok. If that’s the way you feel about it.
@Janet Greene
Agreed, there is definitely a difference with trying to be objective or not. And for that I can not go into a lab to reproduce any results, that would by nature be the opposite of faith. My “attempt” at objectivity with my faith comes through personal experience. It is my experience of living a life in pursuit of Christ that has satisfied my unsatisfied and longing soul, and therefore a trust in a higher being. It is my experience of looking out into the universe that leads me to feel like their is a Creator of all things. And it is in moments of true pain and suffering that I have felt the comfort of God. Those things can not be duplicated nor measured. You can’t pick it up and weigh it, and they clearly can be debated and believed or not believed. But given my personal experiences it seems foolish for me to not believe in God. I can understand why others might not… I have a question everything approach, and I personally questioned many things myself, and why I believe. i surely have not “tried out every religion and spiritual path” and I am sure you have not either, right? But it is my experiences that bear witness to God and my faith that has confirmed those things to me. And so I trust, hope, and have faith in something greater than what I can touch, in a God that I believe does exist. Does that at least make sense, whether not you believe it or not? I just want to help you understand where I am coming from.
“Is the author lying, or is Leviticus 25 the direct word of God?”
Again, not all Christians take all of the Bible literally. They some of it symbolically and keep in mind its historical context.
“The problem is that Christians cannot agree on which parts are symbolic and which are not. What is symbolic to one set of Christians is considered to non-symbolic by others, and vive versa.
As I said before, you have to posses the rare gift of infallibility to be sure you have it right.”
You’re right, it’s a complicated thing. But just because we don’t have infallibility right now doesn’t mean it’s all nonesense. Life isn’t about always being sure you are right. Too much evil has persisted in the world from people (believers and nonbelievers) who were SURE they were right.
The minute you are absolutely sure you are right is the day you stopped thinking. That goes for believers and athiests.
LRA,
I’m sure the Jews wished that people made it their business.
Calling a baby your body doesn’t make the baby not a baby.
It sounds like you made the choice that we made. I decided I had to be a doctor, that there was nothing more important so I killed my child over it, my wife doing the same thing. However, like most people who talk about their abortions openly, after the abortion, nothing mattered anymore.
LRA, have you see the movie Lake of Fire – or seen abortions performed? It’s very hard to argue it isn’t a child when you’ve seen it. Are you hiding from that, or have you just hardened yourself to the reality.
I don’t know how old you are now, but it took 14 years before we could finally face our aboritions. We told ourselves since we were 19 and 20 that there was no way for us to do anything else. And I’ll bet our families were poorer than yours, I didn’t think people existed in the US who were as poor as my wife’s family. We got pregnant with our daughter less than a year later and we knew that all we told ourselves about needing to get that PhD etc. was a lie we’d told ourselves. You’re now vested in your decision, you did have a choice and you made the wrong one but I’m not talking like someone who doesn’t understand – my wife’s putting the kids to bed right now, she’d happily tell you the same thing but you wouldn’t listen from her or anyone – even though she’s been pregnant and had an abortion. Have you had children? have you looked into their eyes knowing what it really means to have killed one just like them – their siblings? Be honest with yourself, the university will just convince you that you are wise in your own eyes, where does the relativism stop – at one point do we stop saying that murder is an individual decision that no one can ever question? It’s a bunch of bunk and we all know it but we don’t want to face being non-PC or giving up our dreams which turn to nightmares under the abortionist’s knife.
I hope some day can face what you’ve done and truly help people someday by helping them give up their child for adoption.
By the way we’ve been foster parents to three children for 18 months and we are seeking to adopt special needs children. So we do quite a bit for the other side of this.
Anyway, I’m signing off now, because I’m pretty short on time – I don’t know if the comments about drive-by comments are about me, but I don’t know many people who have five kids and who are foster parents and who do counseling of pre and post-abortion women (as well as other sorts of volunteering) and work full-time (and homeschool) who can sit all day on a blog like this. Besides, who really has time to blog anyway, especially if no one’s going to hear.
I encourage all of you to stop reciting to yourself these canned lines you’ve been taught all your lives and honestly investigate this issue.
*Correction: “I will explain, but please do not accuse me of things, otherwise I will not debate at all.”
Man, it’s too late at night to be debating, lol.
Btw, a thought to both believers and nonbelievers: a little tolerance of different opinions goes a long way. ;)
“The point about the guilt is that the Christians are CREATING it– just as “Iamtheenemy” tried to do to me just now. It is very wrong! I have NO shame over what I did. It was the RIGHT CHOICE for me. I am not pro-abortion, I am pro-CHOICE.”
There are plenty of women who regret abortions who are not Christian. Many pro-choice people acknowledge that abortion is a very sad decision to have to make. Is it so odd and strange then to feel badly afterward? Whether you think a fetus is a person or not, it is a life. Why is compassion for a life suddenly an unnatural thing?
It’s one thing to say abortion is a choice some women feel they have to make. It’s another to say there’s nothing to feel badly about.
I don’t agree with your decision at all, but I still respect you as a human being and will treat you as such. :)
“If this event is in doubt, then the entire Bible is in doubt. If Leviticus 25 cannot be trusted to accurately relay the word of God, then the Ten Commandments cannot be trusted to accurately relay the word of God.”
I understand what you’re saying. Thing is, that’s a very “all or nothing” attitude and life just isn’t like that. Many Christians believe that some of the Bible are stories based around real events, with very important meanings. These were early peoples trying to understand the world and their main way of communicating was through stories. These stories were often fantastic and exaggerrated because they were attempting to deliver an important message. That is how people communicated, through oral tradition.
As for the slavery thing again, in Christianity it is called The Old Testament because Jesus refutted certain parts of it. Christians respect the Old Testament but feel Jesus corrected some things about it in The New Testament.
Seriously, your past verbal attacks invalidate that.
Unbanned =/= didn’t happen.
Again, I say to people of ALL points of view on this board (including myself), a little tolerance and understanding of different opinions goes a long way. And we shouldn’t stereotype groups just because we disagree with them. ;)
“That is Crap, if people practiced responsible sexual behavior all of the time, the situation with aids would not be as bad as it is in Africa at this time.”
Um yes, I said that in the same post you just quoted.
I’m going to take a break from this Blog for awhile. The Blog itself always has very interesting ideas. But the amount of utter hate and lack of understanding from people of all points of view in the comments section is staggering.
Of course that does not speak for everyone here. I have enjoyed debating with many people here and still respect everyone’s opinions. :)
Yeah, don’t be hypocritical like loswl who spends time on this Forum while he believes that you shouldn’t be!
Christianity is a virus of the mind. It slowly takes over the host and attempts to multiply by infecting other hosts. All christians should be shot to protect the rest of us normal, healthy people.
I was tempted to delete your comment for your baseless accusations, but it’s so stupid that I think I’ll leave it up.
I guess you think Bertrand Russell never understood philosophy because he was an atheist, huh?
If you could only get people to take a course in philosophy, then there wouldn’t be any atheists around! It’s so easy!
And, there is nothing to stop anyone from starting their own church and calling themselves the ‘pastor’, or other title they want.
On this topic, many years ago when I was just starting out as a young attorney in New England, there was a local character who went around in a clerical collar calling himself the “Right Reverend So and So” (I don’t recall his actual name). It turned out he was simply a scam artist who went around bilking people (usually buisnesses) by playing on his alleged position as a clergyman. My firm ended up suing him on behalf of a client for something or other. Man, was this guy entertaining at the trial! He called down the Wrath of God on the lawyers, the judge, the jury, and claimed that only God had jursidiction over him. It was great! I think he had slipped over from fraud to delusion and into actual insanity.
I’m putting all of Jesse’s comments automatically in moderation. If he can speak civilly, then I’ll approve his comments. If not, they go into the internet ether.
Just to be clear, I’m not doing this because I disagree with him. I’m doing it because he’s a jerk.
Best I can tell, it means something between close to idiot, naïf, or simpleton.
May have been deceitful?
He said that he was an atheist in order to slander non-religious people.
That is deceitful, and it doesn’t take a philosophy degree to arrive at that conclusion, Jesse.
By the way, judging atheism by Dawkins and Hitchens is a huge straw man, and you know it.
You’re the punchline, Jesse. You keep being refuted, and you never really acknowledge it, do you?
You are more full of crap than almost anyone I have ever interacted with on UF, and that is really saying something.
I mean, you make Alex Guggenheim look like a decent fellow.
Hey Jesse, the inquisition called and they want their argument back.
to LRA-
i appreciate your post on the status of the number of souls attributable to a hermaphrodite, chimera or “merged twin” (people born with multiple body parts but only one head).
this brings to mind the question of what happens to the souls of miscarried and stillborn conceptions, since according to catholic doctrine, baptism must be performed for entry into heaven. purgatory?
I believe that the fellow responsible did apologize. No? Again, you are not required to accept it, but I’ve certainly suffered equally-bad (if not worse) generalizations of my spirituality and haven’t chose to hold that against you. I think that is the point that some are trying to make here- that holding something against Christians in general because of the actions of one man isn’t a responsible allocation of anger.
I think some might interpret the smug, patronizing tone that can sometimes be found in your comments as being at least somewhat impolite.
To be fair, that’s not how *all* of your comments read, but I see it on a pretty regular basis. You might want to try a little harder to get that under control if you are concerned about people thinking your manners are faulty.
I think you are unfailingly polite, John.
Unfortunately, I think you are also very dishonest. Which makes me suspect that your politeness is a tactic, not a trait.
For instance, you tried to tell someone what the definition of Heaven in the NT was. I pointed out what the Greek words actually mean. You vanish.
That seems very dishonest to me, in multiple ways. So while you are polite, what you’re actually doing here isn’t that far off from what the knucklehead this post is aimed at did.
In my not so humble opinion.
I’ll agree that you’re polite, though your politeness often seems to be a cheap mask covering insult and rudeness.
You may not intend it that way, but that’s how you can come across, sometimes.
@LRA and Enemy
I’ve read your comments to each other, and I’ve been thinking about both your stances for a couple days now. I’ve made a few comments, but I want to take this moment to make a real comment of my own.
First, I am pro-choice. So, I will start with this.
@Enemy. Your wife had an abortion, and you both feel regret over that decision. You said that neither of you were able to provide the right life for the child that you aborted, and further it would’ve been a real problem for both of you and the path you were currently on. She was in school, and you were working on your PhD. You now counsel others. What is the purpose of this counseling? To comfort afterwards, or convince them not to have an abortion at all?
Regardless. You said that your family serves as a foster family for orphaned children, and that’s admirable. It really is! But I also feel that I need to point this out.
If not for the abortion, the chances of you having the lifestyle that you have now are slim. You and your wife would’ve had to adjust your goals and lives, and it’s possible that you’d have run into problems with schooling, and how would you be able to do what you’re doing now without enough money as a result of your schooling?
Since your wife had a poor background, supporting the child monetarily would’ve been very hard. It’s possible that you would’ve had to give up on your PhD in order to bring in money to properly care for that child. So, as a result of that abortion, you’ve been able to provide a MUCH HIGHER quality of life for not just your own children afterward, but the orphans that you also foster. So, in my eyes, while the abortion is regrettable, it was also the lesser evil. It was the best decision you could’ve made at that point. The only better decision would’ve been to have practiced safe sex, but that’s another point entirely.
Yes, no one -wants- to have an abortion. But in some situations, like yours, it’s a true blessing to have it available.
Now, it’s true that you could’ve put that child up for adoption. However, that’s an even harder thing to do than have an abortion, far harder, and there’s no promise that adoption will end up providing a better life than non-existence. Orphanages (even though they’re not called that anymore) aren’t always great places for children to grow up. There are also a lot of terrible foster homes for children to be sent to. While I’ll agree that a majority of children who’re given up for adoption do end up in healthy homes… there are more children who need to be adopted than there are people willing to adopt them. Until the supply and demand changes, abortion is a better option.
Further, you really don’t have any right telling people how they should feel about anything. If you’re trying to project and force your feelings on other, then you’re guilty of emotional rape. No matter how hard you try, you cannot make people feel the way that you want them to feel.
Also, LRA is pro-choice. Not pro-abortion. There’s a strong difference there. Pro-Choice means that people have abortion as an option if they’re ever in that situation that you were in with your wife.
@LRA. I’ve made previous comments about how I would feel if my wife/girlfriend got pregnant, and we were considering an abortion, and I would like to rephrase that.
If my wife/girlfriend was pregnant, then I feel that I would be entirely within my rights to tell her how I feel about abortion or keeping the child. Suppose that I wanted her to keep it. I would argue for that, and let her know how I feel.
She, however, would be the ONLY one who gets to make the decision in the end. If she decided to abort the child anyways, even if I wanted to keep it, that would be fine. I’d be sad, but that would be her decision, not mine.
And in reverse, if I wanted an abortion, and she wanted to keep it… then I feel that the right thing to do is to support the child, regardless of how I felt on the abortion issue. That’s where I stand. In no way does the man have equal say in it, but how he feels should be taken into consideration when the decision is made.
I agree Sock, people talk about adoption all the time but it’s really a very difficult decision, even more difficult than abortion I imagine. But that’s why it’s so amazing and wonderful when people do it. ;)
I do not agree with abortion and don’t see it as a lesser of two evils. It is the symptom of a much larger problem. Most abortions happen in poverty striken areas. If more people got support and means of escape, they wouldn’t have that awful decision to make.
That’s why I don’t vote Republican, because even when they claim to be pro-life, they are doing nothing about the problem.
I don’t vote Democrat either for the record, I’m purely independent. ;)
well said, well said.
But actually i wanted to reply to plutonearth93, but could find no button for it….so i went to the nearest one.
To plutonearth93, if you ever see this – your comparison is flawed. How can you define “evil?”
It isn’t “the absence of goodness” like dark is the absence of light. Evil is defined by our personal morals. There is no such thing as cold, as a matter of fact. Cold is just a word WE make up to describe how a lack of comfortable heat makes us feel.
Heat is a measurable energy. Cold is not an energy, it is just a descriptive word to roughly convey a comfort preference.
OK, I acknowledge that stats tell us usually what they want them to tell us. However, they CONSISTENTLY tell us that secular societies have better employment, less crime, less incarceration, etc.
Amen.
“Evil is the absence of goodness, just as darkness is the absence of light.”
God created darkness by creating space and time, He is also the creator of darkness, therefore evil.
Thanks for the nonsensical rant.
So now religion is any social system that includes law? Because that’s pretty much what your definition amounts to.
BTW, ever going to respond to my posts about your pretending to know Greek?
Thanks for responding Mogg, but I do have to respectfully disagree. You use the example of cheating when it comes to rules and who makes them. The rule on cheating came from the Bible initially though, thousands of years ago and has continued to be “wrong” in our culture, or in most of us anyway. The Golden Rule is another example. This is hung up in a public school I was just in, and where did that come from? The Bible! The Bible tells us what is appropriate and what it not.
As far as Christians go, I have to agree with you for sure. But understand that just because we are religious or just because someone considers themselves a Christian, does not mean we are perfect and don’t make mistakes. I have seen many Christians take the Bible and interpret it in a way that fits their lifestyle. Be it right or wrong, that’s what happens. So those Christians who proclaim to be so, may go out there and make mistakes, or maybe they hurt others on purpose, and that confuses us. But God loves them just as much as He loves me as I try very, very hard to follow Him and the plan He has for me.
And I’m glad to hear that your friends and family play such an important role in your life. But I do have to point out, even if you don’t want to hear it :), that God uses us to teach us. God uses me and He uses everyone around me to shape my life. If I’m open to hearing Him, then I can take advantage of the graces He puts in front of me. It sounds like you’re open to them, but you don’t realize that He has given them to you. I know, I know, you don’t believe He exists, but I do. And I believe that the goodness that comes from the relationship with your friends and family is His work. It’s not yours and yours alone. He gives us the power and the free will to do as we wish, but it all comes down to the bottom line: If it wasn’t for God, we would not be here and we would not have all that we have.
Thank you again for the respectful, intellectual discussion here!!
@Karen
But could you share with us why you believe all that?
I’m not asking for you to prove God or show evidence for existence; a simple explanation to other humans in earthly terms the reason(s) why you believe what you believe.
This is the crux of the atheist’s fascination with believers.
Hi Karen,
The Golden Rule was not a Jesus original. There’s evidence that the Egyptians had heard of it 4000 years ago (2000 years before Jesus and several hundred years before Moses, in other words), and there’s a good chance that earlier societies had it as well, because it turns up in just about every society, regardless of whether they were ever exposed to Christianity. Confucius expressed it around 500 years before Jesus’ day, without any influence from Judaism or the other origins of our own modern society. The Greeks decided that it was the most basic moral code 400 years before Jesus, and the Hindus had also included it in their texts well before Jesus’ time.
You might wish to interpret that as something put into humanity by God at the beginning, however you think the beginning of humanity came about. I think that the way that it shows up in other primates, all the more sophisticated the more complex the brain and social behaviour, indicates evolutionary adaption. It doesn’t need a god to explain it. I guess we’re just going to disagree on that one, though.
By all means, I try to be open to learning from everyone that I meet and have some relationship with. Sometimes that includes learning what not to do. For me, trusting in a God that doesn’t actually do what the book he supposedly inspired says he does, falls into that category.
Karen,
I hope that you will not be ashamed of me. I too am ashamed of others who live their lives un-Christlike ways. I allowed my “debater” part of me and my own desire to show others that Christianity is about love, grace, forgiveness. I crossed the line and want to rectify it. I have had some great emails from athiests and Christians alike who are sympathetic and have been encouraging. Plenty of negative email, I have had some people of faith to be negative too. I deserved the chastisment, but hope people will also be fogiving. I am available for any further questions or comments. Thanks!
I like to call’em the PFCs of God’s Army…
Prevaricators for Christ.
Ok I gave it a second chance, but I really am done with this board forever.
You say you want to convert people? You will not do so by calling people liars, laughing and scoffing at them and accusing them of horrible things just because you don’t understand. I realize not everyone has done this. But it’s clearly the general feeling of this board.
In many ways I admire the athiest way of thinking. But healthy debate is not about being so cruel to people. You have now failed to convert a believer, even one who agreed with you in many ways….
“I’ve noticed that there are Christians who believe that all morality is derived from the Judeo-Christian bible and that anyone who does not subscribe to that particular belief system has no moral or ethical compass at all. This belief is untrue, and a symptom of ignorance.”
I think most people would agree that no person is without any kind of moral or ethical compass. I’m not sure which Christians made you think that Christians in general believe anyone who doesnt follow Christ does not have a sense of morality within their being.
I would be offended by a person claiming this and claiming they are a follower of Christ at the same time. The reason being: one who follows Jesus believes that God the father not only exists and is eternal and perfect, but he is the creator of the universe and all within it… meaning all of humanity…
…meaning he instilled a conscience, or a “moral compass”, if you will, within each one of us– without excluding those who choose to ignore his love and grace.
there are many “good people” out there, who are not christians, who do all kinds of great things because, i personally believe, there is goodness in everyone. The Bible tells the story in Genisis of Adam and Eve. They were created to be glorious beings, friends of God. They messed this up and bam–the world knew sin. Yet the plan for perfect goodness was still known by Adam and Eve. Now they just needed someone to save them because they chose (with their free will given to them by God–he’s not forcing anyone to choose him..) to know sin. That doesn’t mean they only did sinful things…they did good things. They lived off the land, they had children…etc.
It’s the same story with you and I.
We have this conscience within us, and we want to do good. But we also live in a world full of bad, obviously. Why? Our free will.
Oh I could go on forever on tangents.
I won’t.
They were created to be glorious beings, friends of God. They messed this up and bam–the world knew sin.
Truly this is where your entire belief system just falls apart into a pile of pathetic desperation.
If god created them with the intent that they’d be all that and they weren’t, then it is 100% god’s fault for failing to accomplish what is a really simple goal compared to, you know, creating an entire universe. He’s supposed to be a god, but he’s a pathetic failure according to you.
It’s really sad that you’re so self loathing that you keep trying to take the blame for the failings of your imaginary friend.
I imagine that were you sad on another person’s account you’d probably offer to pray for them, but I’m not a fan of empty meaningless gestures, so I’ll instead offer you some very helpful advice:
Be a thinker, not a believer. You’ll be much happier without all that ugly baggage.
I have to say I have read most of the comments on this post and saw nothing I would call serious personnel attacks by anyone. Yeah there might have been some since I deleted a few hundred comments from my email. I just get the feeling that herald7 usually goes to sites which are probably one sided and they are usually on the side she is on. She isn’t used to having her statements questioned as she got here. I have to agree with all those that asked if slavery isn’t what god meant then how can you know anything else in the bible is what he meant.
I have a really odd question that probably will take a Christian two seconds to answer (if people will still take the time to read this). I’m completely confused by your concept of hell and who exactly is controlling things (down) there… Is Satan’s eternal punishment to rule over and torture the damned? Is it something he wanted to do? This seems so odd when it is supposed to be Satan’s fault that someone is down there… Someone doesn’t believe in God? Well hey! That’s exactly what Satan wanted to happen. So why would he punish the people who are on his side? What kind of joy would he get out of torturing people who have the same views as he/she does? Just reading this, I feel stupid, but that’s not going to stop me from asking, I guess.
-Confused but still hopeful
Kim,
Thanks for clarifying that.
@Kim
I’m not sure you’ve answered Teleprompter’s question, however.
If I may pin my own curiosity to his query, I think we’re wondering if a Christian’s morality comes from God, why do many Hindus and Muslims and atheists lead moral lives with no regard for Christian theology?
(did I get that right?)
I notice that when people began posting very good explanations of where morality comes from without requiring a god, all the pastor types seem to have disappeared.
Typical. When the cheap shots and one liners fail, they have nothing left in the bag of tricks.
@John – I spent years trying to “love God/Jesus”. It simply was not possible. I cannot love on command; and I cannot love a being that I have never seen, felt, heard, touched, anything. I prayed earnestly that I would have faith; waited for something to happen. Personally, I believe that this love from “God” that you feel is something natural within humans. We attribute things to God that are really “us”. I found this out when I rejected god/christianity – I had the same feelings as before. Overall, I have a better general sense of “well-being”, but I love people who actually exist and whom I have relationships with. And I know what you will say – that you have a “relationship” with god. And I believe you. In the same way that a child has a relationship with an invisible friend. They really, really believe that friend is there. They talk to them, laugh with them, play with them. It’s amazing -t the power of the mind and what we can convince ourselves of. The truth is, none of us have a relationship with “god”. You can talk all you want but there is no answer “up there”. I do believe that there is “something”, but none of us knows what it is. But a conscious God, who can read our thoughts and make magic happen, no. If that kind of God existed, there would be no debate. We would all know about it. Any god who makes it so debatable, and the evidence so against his existence, clearly does not want humankind to know about it. Bottom line – I’m so much happier since I gave up all that hookey! :)
Laodicea?
Since I didn’t understand the allusion, I had to Google it.
It seems that you are implying that lukewarm believers are the problem for Christians.
You haven’t answered my question.
I didn’t ask you why Christians aren’t moral. I asked why *non-Christians* are moral.
I’d expect that from a high school youth. Not from a pastor. Geesh…
Pastor Chris Fox gone?
http://www.kendallsbaptistchurch.org/
The church probably shut down the site.
If it is not a strategy, I hope the church will deal kindly to her own kind for the sake of his wife and children.
@Mike – I should clarify – at the time, I was a “backslidden” christian. I believed that christianity was absolutely true, but as a young adult I wanted to have fun first. I just assumed I would have to straighten out my act so I wouldn’t burn in hell or be left behind in teh rapture! So I wasn’t actively christian at the time I became a coke addict.
I agree that many christians are addictive (usually secretly). I have found out why. The tenets of christianity tend to diminish normal brain functioning. I’m not kidding. When normal human reasoning, emotions, and sexuality are squashed, and we are forced to believe things that could not be logically true (ie God loves you unconditionally, God kills without reason, God will send you to hell if you don’t take certain steps, but don’t forget how much god loves you) the hormones in our brain get out of balance. Christianity talks a lot about joy, mercy and love, but ultimately it is about guilt and fear. Guilt – that we are sinful and need forgiveness – and fear – if we don’t get salvation we will burn forever. These are not healthy foundations for living. If you want a much better description that this about how christianity screws up our brains so that we become addicted (in an attempt to self-medicate), see Celia Murray Dunn “Religion that Harms, Religion that Heals”.
Since I rejected christianity (it was a slow process – took years of reading and searching for truth), I no longer struggle with drug addiction. The guilt and fear of my upbringing is slowly leaving me. I can celebrate life without the paranoia that some god is reading my thoughts! They are my private thoughts now, and it’s wonderful. I am no longer on anti-depressants either. I’m not suppressing myself anymore, so I’m able to fill that spiritual void now.
I give kudos for the Pastor’s final response and willingness to acknowledge he messed up. To me that says a lot about his character, a lot of folks would just dig in. What he did was wrong and was a cheap shot for certain, and it took a lot of pressure to get him to fess up. Not sure if he finally did because of fear for fallout at his church or a genuine sense of remorse, but at least he publicly admitted his wrong doing. I agree he should be given a 2nd chance!
Jimmy Gold – another interesting article on the topic of the increasing number of atheists in America by Huffpost – check out this article called “the silent minority”…
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cenk-uygur/the-silent-minority_b_173354.html
The best response to the religion – morality question was from Lyndon Lamborn, a Mormon excommunicated when he accidentally discovered the “real” Joseph Smith and refused to keep quiet. He said, “I am a better Christian as an atheist that I ever was as a Mormon.”
That captures the essence of the “debate” over the origin of morals. The biggest problem is the ignorance (I say this nicely) of those who think history corresponds with the Biblical tale: God created Adam about 6,000 years old and while he was at it, gave us our morals. I am still surprised when I hear this and always ask, “Have you ever heard of fossils?” LOL
Just stumbled this blog and found a very interesting discussion, hi all.
Just wanted to say, I am an athiest/agnostic but I am a pretty strict moralist; there is a basic code of human behaviour which is completely independent of religion.
Broadly speaking all religions share one over-riding philosophy – ‘the Golden Rule’ – basically summed up as ‘do unto others as you would have them do unto you’.
It applies to no less than 21 world religions
http://www.religioustolerance.org/reciproc.htm
Christianity is not unique and can’t really be held up as superior or even particularly unusual. Most would agree the ten commandments are at its core. Funnily enough they vary among Judeo Christian religions as you can see from the table halfway down this wikipedia page
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments
1. You shall have no other god/ make no idols (much the same)
2, Not take gods name in vain
3. Remember the sabbath
4. Honour your father and mother
5. Dont kill
6. Dont commit adultery
7. Don’t steal
8. Dont bear false witness
9. Dont covet your neighbours wife/ house
(1 and 10 are sometimes divided in 2, depending on the religion)
4, 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9 are all facets of the Golden Rule. Hence they are either specifically shared or at least unlikely to be disputed by any of the world’s religions as rules of behaviour. They are all quite simple rules for harmonious social interaction. I don’t think its a coincidence that they emerged as laws alongside the spread of urban living following the agricultural revolution and the end of hunter gathering as a way of life.
1, 2 and 3 are different, they provide rules with the purpose of serving the religion itself. 1 is a declaration of monotheism and both 2 and 3 are designed to encourage respect for the monotheistic deity in question. So they’re only moral commands within the context of the religion.
It’s been shown that music is innate, the pentatonic scale for instance is universal, I couldn’t say ‘the golden rule’ is conclusively universal but it does seem to be fairly ubiquitous and evolved independently in several places. Does anyone really think that when Moses proclaimed the ten commandments (if, of course, he did) the people said “oh yeah – we never thought of that – let’s not kill, steal or lie ever again!” For me the most likely scenario is that these rules already existed as ‘common sense’ or as part of earlier common law, then were co-opted by the emergent religion to eventually become inseparable.
All human societies have rules of behaviour. It’s seemingly instinctive for people to anthropomorphise these concepts into deities, and to invent all sorts of myths which surround them. It is perhaps useful to invent an omnipotent policeman god to help enforce the rules and wield both a carrot (heaven) and stick (hell). The deities and stories change, but the broad thrust of what is moral and what is immoral does not.
For me, religion itself is immoral (this is a bold statement it would take an even bigger post to justify so I won’t try just now). I want my kids to develop empathy – they should refrain from lying, stealing, killing etc because they don’t want to cause harm, not because they think some big frightening God will burn them up.
It gets better…
The incestuous pedophile is not excommunicated. He’s welcome back in the church, as his crime is “not as bad as taking a life having/performing/approving an abortion.”
despicable |diˈspikəbəl|
adjective
deserving hatred and contempt : The Vatican is a despicable organization.
Reginald…do you understand that? God has a different definition of “death” than we do. Itsimply means anything outside of Him, His (uncreated, unending, not subject to death & decay kind of life).
We surely died…away from Him, found ourselves outside the life of God, a stranger to paternity.
Thankfully Christ restores all of what was lost by eating (living from) the tree of independence, Self whose fruit was…death, separation.
There is more…
IIRC I think that even the Catholic Church realised that this was a bit of of publicity lemon and have changed their minds on this one. Not sure if I can find a link though.
Looks like he’s still the pastor of his flock of sheeple.
I believe that there is this thing call The Force. It isn’t God nor an old man in the sky. The Force binds the galexies togather. It produces life. You can’t find it in the bible. Yes it was featured on Star Wars. However I think that George Lucas learned the truth and used Star Wars as a front to tell this truth. I also believe in reincarnation and an after life on the astral plane. Other then than that the scientist has got everything right. Also the Athiests are mostly on everyrthing else. There are a lot of bullshitters out there who thinks they know it all! As for lieing pastor’s, Christainity is a complete fabercation built on lies!
it slould be; the Athiest are mostly correct about everything else.
XD he pretty much called all of us Atheists sociopaths.
Bad Friday, being stapled into favorite hobby; Good Sunday, something about controlling death. Bunnies try controlling death Sunday too (bunny fertility).
http://upperandlowercase.com/musicvariant1
While this is pretty bad, people here do need to acknowledge the apology and that this pastor isn’t a bad person. If you read any of his other posts here or elsewhere you will see that he just got annoyed and posted stupid “anonymous” comments that he took back. People here are acting like he actually did kill babies instead of just posting about it.
He states on his web site bio “His passions are his relationship with Jesus Christ, his family, and equipping the church to be disciples and do “disciple things.”
I suppose doing “disciple things” includes trolling forums, spewing vulgarities and lying in the name of Jesus. He is just another example of why i say non-believers are more believable, more honest, more trustworthy, etc. This pastor is a joke!
Props to the pastor for being humble enough to apologize. I’m pretty sure most of us would have just cut our losses and ran.
I’m just shaking my head here. I really shouldn’t be surprised any more by the abominable behavior of religious people but….
How can atheism be a religion? It does NOT require any faith. Instead it is based upon reality and observable facts that can be seen and duplicated by anyone.
Furthermore, it does not involve lying, distorting facts, or cherry-picking passages out of a book full of contradictions and myths.
As far as morality is concerned, what does religion have to do with that? Unless human sacrifice, intolerance, and genocide are considered to be moral.
Then treating minorities and women as less than equal or even slaves, is that moral?
Most of the problems of the world are, and always have been, caused by religion. Mankind will never truly be free until the black yoke of religion is lifted by the clear light of truth and reason.
Chris still has his job.
Child molesting priests still have their jobs too. Why should Pastor Chris be any different. It’s just business as usual for the church.
“I wonder what the christians that read this website think of a pastor doing this?”
The pastor was wrong, but he’s human. I have been to a few prominent atheist sites (one in particular) where the author routinely posts comments to his articles under different pseudonyms–he even argues with himself and plays good cop/bad cop to stimulate the comment thread. In response I posted under different pseudonyms (all bearing the same trademark hyperbolic British arrogance) and in retuirn he posted my IP # and declared me dishonest. LOL. I didn’t think I was being dishonest, I only thought I was giving him a taste of his own medicine. After all, I knew he could see my IP # on all of my posts. I then challenged him to display the IP #’s for all comments on his blog for a few minutes to prove their authenticity but he would not.
Honestly, I don’t really care if he’s posting with false nyms. It’s his blog and he can do what he wants with it. I can see why he is commenting as others. It’s not that he wants to deceive people, he just wants to make his blog look popular. It’s no different than movie labels posting false reviews of their movies, and so forth. At worst it’s a greasy marketing tactic, but I wouldn’t go as far as to call it unethical.
Personally, had I been the blog author here and I grew suspicious of the commenter, I would not have researched him and outed him. I would have privately warned him, then banned him if he kept it up. I do not see the point in publicly humiliating him for getting overzealous about proving his point. That’s a level of mudslinging I am not interested in.
“Honestly, I don’t really care if he’s posting with false nyms.” – Your previous statement, “I only thought I was giving him a taste of his own medicine.” shows you to be a Liar.
“It’s no different than movie labels posting false reviews of their movies,” – Perhaps you should re-read the article again. “In a few hours, he went from apologizing for our past dealings with slimy lying Christians, to suggesting it’s okay to abuse women, kill neighbors, and slaughter children under the guise of atheism.”
“At worst it’s a greasy marketing tactic,” – Thanks for illustrating religion is something to be sold, just like a used car.
“but I wouldn’t go as far as to call it unethical.” – Apparently you and the pastor are equally immoral. Funny for someone who believes that morals are handed down by a higher power you can’t aspire to it.
“I would not have researched him and outed him. I would have privately warned him, then banned him if he kept it up.” – Because its better to cover up wrongdoing and give a dishonest individual a free pass instead of expecting them to live up to the words they preach?
“getting overzealous about proving his point.” – If you have to Lie to “prove your point” then you really don’t have ANY point.
Mudslinging? How stupid are you?
Like the wise man said, Don’t blame Jesus for Christianity.
peace out,
donovan
editor
spiritnewsdaily.com
Why Christians can’t be moral:
1) They have no problem with the innocent [namely Jesus] paying for their wrong doings – This is akin to robbing a bank and allowing an innocent bystander to take the blame. Hardly moral.
2) They continue to give birth – whilst believing in eternal torture/punishment for finite “crimes”. A moral person – knowing people are prone to error – wouldn’t dream of putting a new life in this predicament – so would refrain from giving birth.
3) Churches – like prisons – are full of “sinners”. A moral person would think it best to stay away from both.
Grins…
“Churches – like prisons – are full of “sinners”. A moral person would think it best to stay away from both.”
So true, a moral person should avoid anything that will lead him to Church or Prison.
Didn’t think of that angle — interesting!
I’m a Christian, and I’m ashamed and disgusted by what this guy has done. It is hypocritical and deceitful, and does not represent what we teach and aspire to.
Daniel, I’m glad you exposed this. I intend to share this with my Christian friends to remind that that atheists are real people who should be treated with respect.
I can’t say that I regularly read this website – I just happened to stumble on it today – but I am a Christian. There are a lot of people out there who do really stupid and awful things and carry the banner of Christian. Heck, we’re all human, and I would argue that we all do stupid things, intentionally or not, with good intentions or poor. Christians aren’t any more or less “moral” than anyone else – we’re all screwed up. We just believe that we need a Savior for it and that He came in the person of Jesus.
Things like this are a reason that I’ve become a fan of the whole “Apologize for Jesus” thing. For decades Christians have been using and abusing the name Christian and Jesus like it gives them some higher moral or spiritual authority from which to heave judgment at everyone else. People have used it to justify all sorts of cruelty and vicious behavior. So, if you are reading this and no one’s gotten to you yet, I’m sorry. I’m sorry that people called themselves Christian and told you that you were anything but loved. I’m sorry for the people who have deceived you, hurt you, lied to you, or cheated you with some sort of “Christian” agenda. That’s not the Jesus I know, and I’m sorry it’s the one you’ve been introduced to. If you ever want to know the Jesus I do, feel free to contact me. If not, I’m not going to try to cram Him down your throat. We’re just people, too, and anyone who tries to tell you any different is fooling himself.
As a Christian believer and as a Pastor I am appalled that this man did this. One doesn’t need to lie about one’s self in order to make a point – in fact doing so reveals the true hypocrisy of believing one thing and doing another. That I think is the issue with most western Christian thinking – we believe one thing, yet do another. Often times unintentionally (although this one certainly appears to be intentional) simply due to our own human and sinful nature.
So as a Christian believer and Pastor I apologize for the actions of this one. May we all be open to hearing each other’s thoughts and ideas, respecting each other’s lives and positions, and come together in community where each person has the same space because they are a person. Love and community are central to the gospel that I have dedicated my life and that was lost here.
Yeah, had he just asked “how do atheists account for morals” instead of being a slimy, lying douchebag with the moral awareness of a tapeworm, we’d have politely regurgitated the same explanation we’ve given a dozen times. And he’d have ignored the answers, like everyone else does…
Thanks vjack! I agree. This pastor is in a leadership position telling people how to live their lives, and when they are hypocrites like this, it should be called out.
If he would have responded with humility and I felt like he was really sorry and had learned his lesson, I wouldn’t have posted this. We all do stupid things. But he didn’t acknowledge any wrong-doing and tried to shift the blame. So I made it public.
VJack…love your avatar man, your right, no religion (oppressive, external rule keeping dogma), that would be an awesome day in the world!
Ooooh.
Praise from Caesar.
You the man, Daniel.
You do realize this makes you one of the most “religious” people here right? The paradox is that we end up becoming like what we hate…as long as we…hate.
By moronic, lying scumbags in general, I think.
Well look who turned up! I miss you man, you need to make more time for UF in your heart! ;)
I am annoyed by this pastor because of his deception and attempt to make atheists look bad by impersonating them. But I have many friends who are pastors and while I find some of their crazy beliefs annoying, I think they’re great people.
Well they have this one covered because the NT says to submit to governing authorities, so this is the verse they use to advocate following non-Biblical laws. Of course, most Christians speed like everyone else so they don’t always do this either.
There’s an easy answer to this one – the Bible tells them to:
“Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right.” – 1 Peter 2:13-14
Which suggests to me that among the early Christians there was probably a “heresy” at some point where people felt they no longer needed to obey “Man’s Laws” and could flaunt them instead of follow them. Someone decided that was a bad idea (probably for obvious reasons) and wrote up a letter to the church’s involved to cut it out.
Yeah I’d like that too, just make sure John C and Roger sit together!
I would be honored to meet you and your awesome forum folks some day, that would be really cool. I would be easy to spot, I”ll be the one in the long white robe and sandals, ha. Toga party? lol
All the best to my ‘A’ list friends!
I’d go. People who look like long haired biker thugs are allowed, right?
Heck, I’d even wear my *nice* leather jacket.
Count me in, lol!
And he denied the existence of God. That’s like numbers 1 through 3 on the Big Ten, isn’t it?
Forgive me, I have sinned (j/k). No really, I’m new. What’s a troll?
Welllll…the mainline denominations (Methodist, Presbyterian, etc) have VERY formal processes by which someone is ordained as a pastor. However, Baptist churches tend to vary in how someone comes to be a pastor. Usually, someone announces that they’ve received a “divine call” to preach and they give a test sermon whereby the congregation can judge whether or not this person has indeed a calling to preach. Formal education is usually not required. And nondenominational churches vary even more widely, so that usually anyone can say they’ve got the “call.”
“What is required to become a pastor in the US? Can anyone call themselves a pastor, or is some form of education required? ”
mark: Another reason why I reject religion. The qualifications for becoming a preacher/pastor/reverend is so subjective.
For instance how do you measure someone who actually think they are called vs someone who dosent want to get a job and is using religion to finance there lifestyle.
I agree this was deliberate and not an accidental happening of key punching (which has a great ID vs. evolution undertone…lol), but I disagree with the idea that even something deliberate can’t be a mistake. Deliberate doesn’t excuse the crime, but surely we can admit any crime can be a mistake. If we didn’t believe that then we shouldn’t have jails and just kill em all. Which I do not condone. Mistakes happen in all forms.
“This was not a “mistake”"
What if the “mistake” was in him getting caught and not related to the intent of such an “attack”?
As you say, it “was a deliberate premeditated, planned, fully intended lie….” but he was caught, so maybe the “mistake” was him being outed?
Speaking of hypocrisy —–
I am waiting for drive-by, hit-and-run, I-post-comments-I-expect-others-to-read-but-I-refuse-to-read-others’-comments, passive-aggressive-calling-others-”cute”, I-expect-you-to-reply-by-you-emailing-me-but-I-reply-to-my-emails-in-this-blog, I-complain-I-don’t-get-answers-but-I-refuse-to-read-the-answers-I-get, Stephen Webb to come along and do another of his drive-by shooting postings.
“I was trying to make a point from a different perspective”
A different perspective? Mr Fox has a different perspective, an ignorant perspective. Have you spent time with an atheist Mr Fox? Do you even know any Atheists Mr Fox? Clearly you do not. I am an Atheist and I grew up in a religious home. I went to church, to youth groups, to various church functions… Because my family is wonderful and open-minded I was able to come to my own conclusions based on my time spent in the church. I don’t need to follow the moral code of an ancient text to understand right and wrong. I’m much smarter than that.
I don’t begrudge a whole group of people for their religious beliefs. Life is too short. Try a little understanding, not everyone likes or wants to think the same way you do.
Hi, it should not be a great shock or revelation that a single church leader would be a hypocrite. As a matter of fact Jesus reserved his harshest words for the “church leaders”. He called them hypocrites, white-washed sepulcures, vipers.
But that could if you searched apply to anyman regardless of his profession. The problem would be if you could describe Jesus as a hypocrite.
You see He never said “Follow them”, He said “Follow Me”. In fact He said do as they say, not as they do.
Even Islamists do not have a bad word to say about Jesus. I am aware that Athiests tend to be intelligent, logical etc (not being patronising, this has been my experience) so rather than get involved in time wasting debates, to those of you who beieve its impossible that there could be an omniscent God, I’d just like to say, is it not possible that God could exist beyond the limits of your knowlege?
I am certainly not a theologian or schollar or anything like but I do have one advantage. I have personally witnessed numerous life changing miracles, healings, signs and wonders by Jesus. No I’m not OTT or speaking symbolically or metaphorically etc. And this is the main difference in all religions and Christianity. The tombs of the founders of all religions are occupied. Jesus is alive.
Now thats not a cliche. I mean that but I dont spend my life trying to impose my beliefs on others. The invitation is there to come to a meeting and people choose for themselves. If they seek they will find.
Personally, I dont think I’m bothered if some people go to Hell all on their own but I know Jesus is. Jesus Loves you, despite the state you’re in. And if He wants to save you who am I to argue. So I will always extend a hand to help anyone.
Didn’t mean this to be so long, just replying to that story and you know not every pedophile priest nor money-motivate telly evangelist represents God, for even Jesus said “Not everyone who cries Lord Lord, do I know.
In ending though, whether the pastor did or didn’t do something wrong, apart from the fact that one can tar everyone with the same brush, Jesus also said, Let him who is without sin throw the first stone.
(By the way, another athiest friend of mine said to me once, “Harry, I’m glad I dont have the same hang-ups you do. I’m an athiest, thank God” :)
God Bless,
Harry
Hmm,
See, the interesting thing here is that you’ve about made the “martyr” out of this man. The reason being that Christians are not immune to sin. Lots of folks (atheists and even Christians themselves) forget that. The idea is that Christians should strive to remove sin from their lives in an effort to learn and be closer to the Living God.
That’s another thing that I’ve yet to understand about this blog. I can gather that faith changes often. In fact, I went from being an atheist to a Christian myself, and I still have my own bouts with disbelief or having trouble with certain aspects of the bible. But as “unreasonable” as it may seem, I’m alright with it being called that. Because that is the point of faith, no? Faith is placed in something that defies logic or physical proof, and relies on a sense that goes beyond normal understanding. This is true of all the faiths, even that of atheists. And I struggle with it, as any Christian does. But it is because I have seen a Living God work in peoples’ lives, including my own.
Now, I am not going to try to save you. I’m not going to throw you to the wolves either. As a previous atheist myself, I know full well that someone trying to “put” you into something else doesn’t work. That’s why argument will just continue across this blog. All sides tend to have their heads so far up their you-know-whats sometimes to see out of them. I believe the best way for anyone to minister any faith is to live and act in it, and lead by example. As for now, I’ll trust in God’s time that if he wants to reach you, he will do that.
As for the author of this blog, I don’t know his whole story, but from the “about” section, it seems as though maybe he entered the Christian faith initially for the wrong reasons. So I am not surprised that he finds himself questioning it now. I don’t know that I believe anyone should follow any particular faith or religion without exploring options- because the only way to really have faith in it sometimes is to determine that nothing else works for you. What this blog is trying to prove is an entirely different thing… but then social media is an interesting thing.
Hypocrisy is everywhere and in everyone. So what is the point to making victims of it in Christians (or anyone for that matter)? Why are so many readers of this blog so hellbent on this one religion and making examples of it? I sure hope the answer isn’t “because it was done to me”. That would be… what’s the word…. hypocritical? :)
- April
“CSF, CFS,”
“I hardly know where to begin with you, almost speechless as to what to say, “awe”……..
Just the thought of your comment is amazing, but in a very disturbing way,
I am not here to judge you, but something in me of course has me wondering, why???
But only God knows,
I am a witness that we all do some crazy things spiritual and all, as a matter fact just the other day I did something, rather said something, that I felt very strongly I should not have said, but I promised to keep that between me and the Lord!!! But what you did say, no one can forgive and bless you, like God, so your apologies must be sincere, and of course to Him…..
“Yes I’m sure you feel anger and furious about atheists, but God has a way and time with dealing with the hearts of all men, so as much as we find it disgusting (their behavior and thoughts/beliefs) we always got to remember we cannot judge, lest we be judged, and I don’t know anyone born into the world who is without sin, (only Jesus) and He walks physically among us no more, but in spirit and in truth…….
We have got to believe and live by every word in the bible, does it not say God rains on the just as well the unjust?
He will measure and grant every man his portion (blessings and punishment)……
“I don’t understand atheists either, how do they think they wake up each morning, and be able to feed their families and clothes on their backs, etc?
Holy Bible King James; 2 kings 17: 13-15 reads…….
Still, the Lord warned Israel and Judah through every prophet and every seer, saying, turn from your evil ways and keep My commandments and statutes according to all the law I commanded your ancestors and sent to you through My servants the prophets”.
But they would not listen. Instead, they became obstinate like their ancestors who did not believe thr Lord their God. They rejected His statutes and His covenant He had made with their ancestors and the warnings He had given them. They pursued worthless idols and became worthless themselves, following the surrounding nations of the Lord had commanded them not to imitate.
So ya see God Himself, has a way of dealing with the hardhearted and nonbelievers, but I say unto you, do not get so bothered and irritated by the wrongful thoughts and acts of others, and cause your own salvation to be stripped from you even…….
Blessed be the servants who keeps his master’s commands.
“There are many many more incedents in the bible, that proves the Lord almighty God, to be true, and I am definately a believer, so I share with you my testimony, and it is just that (no fairytales, no fame seeking, etc),
but I attended church services, ministered by Pastor Mason Betha (and for those of you who proclaim him to be unreal, believe what you want, but your salvation relies on your works and belief only, so even if another man imitates, fakes, acts, etc. its your own truth than can save you), anyway, service was nice, I had a blast, because the prophetic power had moved me so, anyway at the altar call, which I immediately answered, and after that, I requested prayer, for this illness I was battling (demons) (bipolar) and minister’s assistant, and other spiritual leaders (Pastor, etc) they began praying over me, and rebuking spirits, and I’m telling you the experience was nothing more than amazing, I felt the spirits fighting back, trying to remain in my body and soul, but I even know, that at the command of Jesus, and the compelling thereof, even the demons has to obey, they quiver, and flee, so I am pleased to announce, that I am free, demonic spirit free, and I know thats real, and the truth, and no man can convince that it isn’t…….
“Blessed be the name of the Lord………
TammyJ
Anyway and despite of the apologize which could have been a wise move in order to settle things down, the damage is done and the reputation impaired. What stays is this certain feeling of approven clichés.
I salute Pastor Chris Fox, he is a pastor of many talents though next time he should use one ID only.
BTW when my friend first found out about the hookers, he told her he was trying to be like Jesus and reach out to preach to them.
yeah, he was reaching out alright…
@ daniel
Great post daniel. Great way to pull a cyberspace sherlock homes on that out of line holy roller.
Out of curiosity how did you find out it was the same person behind multiple post ?
did you track the IP address?
How did you find out the idiot was a Pastor?
Also have you ever wondered why, if theist/holy rollers/christians have god on thier side thier arguments are so weak and predictable.
I have asked john c before how come his all poweful and wise god dosent inspire him to learn and study in order to come up with a stronger argument for the existence of his god.
How could god let John C make such silly comments in his name and on his behalf as a means to make us (non believers) see the light.
If the christian god wants me to believe he exist then he has to provide more evidence than john c provides in his statements and he has to provide more evidence than has been currently claimed by the christians.
IP address helped me track down the comments, then name on an email helped, then some various Googling methods connected the dots.
Something deliberate can probably be a mistake. It does make it sound like more of an “oops, I did it again!”, though, and minimizes the very deliberate choice – the choosing to act, and doing the action.
We all regret things we chose to do (though some deny that it was their responsibility and choice). But I think they aren’t usually of this nature.
But again, that minimizes the deep hostility and hate – don’t deny it – to do these actions repeatedly. That would be true on anyone’s part, without the extra thick mixture of hypocrisy. But that hypocrisy just really does it.
Obsessed much?
He abandoned our email debate eight days ago after I asked him why he employed logic and reason to govern all other decisions in his life save for the most important one a Christian could make.
I hope he’s not sitting in a cave somewhere questioning his faith. I would feel terrible.
Caves are so dark and damp.
I am astounded that he didn’t even think he was doing anything wrong. The rationalization, the excusing of himself, the continued thinking of himself as righteous, his condemnation of OTHERS expressing opinions – in a far more civil, rational, and literate way than his idiot maunderings – its… it’s…
it’s a whole new example of the recent spate of examples of Christians who have no conscience, no internal moral compass, no empathy, no compunctions about doing really nasty things – things which many atheists posted that they could not and would not do – with only the external god-punishment fear keeping their amoral, unprincipled, devoid-of-conscience, remorseless asses in line.
This is the great tragedy/evil of fundamentalistic belief. The system is so out of touch with reality that the Lying for Jesus to Self is necessary. Hypocrisy is the symptom. It’s the oozing pus of compartmentalization.
Interesting word “compartmentalization”… they usually use it to describe people with dissociative identity disorder (DID- formerly known as split personality)…
Am I “troll” Winter?? lol
I think I know the answer! Go easy would ya? ha
Much appreciated Rynoos =)
Excellent, now consider that reference in light of the original, paradaisical story…there were two trees in the garden (we are the garden, our inner man, spirit sanctuary) and we choose which tree, either the tree of the knowledge of good & evil being the tree of Self, independence or the tree of Life, Christ within we are going to eat (live) from.
I find it interesting that we hear of this “tree of life” in the book of beginnings (Genesis) and then again at the end of the book (Revelations). Maybe this whole thing culminates in a beautiful fairy tale like ending?
Just wondering…all the best Elliott.
The notion of proving the non-existence of God by looking for idiots is unreasonable at least, so admittance is unneccessary since it is not the case.
Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses. Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear. (1Ti 5:19-20)
Calling him an idiot doesn’t seems to be the counsel of the bible, but that he be rebuke before the churches for he sinned against his God (2Ti 2:25) and brings shame to the churches.
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; (2Ti 2:25) – I pick this easier verse.
Ditto. I REALLY hope not. This “posing as a atheist/theist” problem would just continue around and around in circles. We would constantly be quoting each others masquerades and use them as “proof” against the other side.
Know what I mean?
Yeah, that’s not a constructive method of engagement. Not that there necessarily *is* one with most Christian sites, but assuming false identities will almost always do more harm than good.
One guy (Rex) did this a while ago at Ray Comfort’s blog. He pretended to have had a conversion experience and from there on posted the most rabid, judgmental, condemning and condescending stuff. Not a peep from the real Christians, except for agreement and congratulations.
After a few weeks, he couldn’t take faking it anymore and came out as a Poe. They had never suspected him, but all of the ‘resident’ atheists except for one or two had been very skeptical all along, including me.
He had neatly proved Poe’s Law, and exposed the fundies as the living and unthinking self-parodies they are.
Yes, but more like a non-hostile, unlettered village-idiot, standing on the street in front of the general store, accosting everyone who walks by, whether they want to hear you or not, saying the same thing over and over again, without supporting it, or answering any questions directly; just kind of a looping audio tape on infini-repeat.
I don’t think you’re a troll, *yet*. But given this crowd, I’m sure they’d let you know if the time came.
Maybe FA is over-run with theists masquerading as atheists?
That would be true, unless of course your “difference” was an internal change of nature (His) as opposed to an external, rule keeping sort of “belief” system tied to cultural norms, etc.
“Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all others because you were born in it.” – GBS
Patriotism is not the same as nationalism. Patriotism can be used a force for ‘good’ as at its core is the want to be proud of your country’s achievements. Nationalism on the other hand says that your country is superior regardless.
“Ooooh! You’ve been Pharyngulated!”
oh hell …
I almost feel sorry for the Pastor now.
Thx for the feedback Spence…any such tone is purely subjective, not my intention or heart, but I appreciate and value the feedback, sincerely.
LOL. Yeah that thought crossed my mind too. Our collective reaction could be worse than the original crime.
He doesn’t deserve that. No one deserves that…well, maybe Ray Comfort.
But no one else.
Well, that would seem to resolve my curiosity of how certain the identification is. However, I’d still be interested to know what turned up in the “digging” that ID’d him.
That’s the exact reply I got.
I got the same canned response, and howdy all! This is my first post.
Man, Daniel, t’es devenu très connu chez les francophones!
Yeah, April 15 is coming… time to render unto Caesar.
I appreciate the verses. It proves the use the of name calling just always comes back to show your immaturity. When i say “your”, I mean, mine. I think there are many other scriptures that should be used in this instance, but I think that is between the Pastor Fox and his congregation.
@darkmatter can you explain what you were trying to say a little further when you said “christianity doesn’t really have control over faiths of her kind,” ?
I call bullshit on that one.
No one needed to look for idiots; the idiot/scumbag/hypocrite/liar/verbal attack rambler came to this site.
The rest of your post is nonsense:
The unlooked-for idiot/etc. and the non-existence of god are unrelated. Non sequitur. (Since it is a non sequitur, your obligation to take the burden of proof ,and verify that anything you believe is fact, is a separate issue.)
The rest of your nonsense is admonishing by bible-quoting to atheists.
Your last scripture reference is a good one…notice who it is that supplies this “gift” of repentence, metanoi??
Yep…the Lover, faith is a gift He provides.
Replying to Rynoos below:
“but I think that is between the Pastor Fox and his congregation. ”
You have replied your question.
claidheamh mor,
I don’t know if Rynoos ia an atheist.
If we believe these were his actual words, Jesus was quite specific in the Sermon on the Mount:
“Call no man a fool”.
I will believe him if he post his reply on his church website, I will forgive him.
Too many prepositions, whoops.
Wouldn’t that be the 1st amendment?
Second amendment is “right to bear arms.”
Exactly what I just blogged. His parishioners have a right to know what he’s been up to.
I am not dishonest Ty, I honestly believe and hold to everything I have shared, scary huh? lol
Might be– I get numbers mixed up! (I’m dyslexic)
It ruined my plans to become a theoretical physicist.
;)
I *settled* for molecular biology instead! (And thank whomever we have computers to check my calculations!)
Out of curiosity (and because I love being a smartass): Didn’t you mean dyscalculia? ;-)
Yes- it is dyscalculia, but when I say that no one generally knows what that is. So I just say dyslexia. Everyone knows what that is.
And just to be clear, my dyscalculia is mild and happens only in calculations (arithmetic). I understand mathematical concepts very well. (In fact, I rather enjoyed learning calculus.) So I don’t want some creationist coming along and pointing fingers at me.
You either lied about what “Ouranos” meant, or you just made it up and acted as if you knew what you were talking about.
That isn’t dishonesty in your book?
When I challenged you on reading Lewis, you said “I am familiar with Lewis”. Were you (dishonestly) trying to fool anyone that you had read him?
Ty…as I said…I am familiar with Lewis’ writings, and more importantly his particular persuasion. If you remember the original conversation I said at that time that I preferred his self admitted “master” George MacDonald the 19th century Scottish writer, preacher, teacher, etc.
The “heavenly’s” is a spiritual realm just like I shared with you.
John, first of all I never talked to you about C.S. Lewis, that was someone else.
Secondly, stop dodging. You claimed that the original word used in the NT that was translated in modern bibles as ‘Heaven’ had other meanings in the original Greek. You listed out a long list of those meanings.
I showed that the Greek word translated as ‘Heaven’ actually literally means ‘Sky.’
You either lied about knowing what the Greek word actually meant, or you lied when you listed out the things you said it meant. There is no third option.
You, sir, lie when you claim to know things. It is a repeated pattern of behavior, and is the reason I feel the way I do about your posts. You can be polite all you like, but I can’t help but see that politeness as nothing but a tactic in your bag of falsehood spreading tricks.
You can say, “There is more!” all you like. I don’t care about that. But you don’t just do that. You also claim to have information other people do not have. You claim to have insight that they don’t have. And in every single case, when your claims are examined, they are a load of crap.
The fact that you play the picked on victim every time someone points out your constant mendacity is just annoying and pathetic.
Say something meaningful, say something that does not contain lies, and your posts will be addressed with respect. Until then, yeah, you’re the site’s jester.
Unfortunately, I do not find pathos funny.
“Dishonest John”, Ty didn’t challenge you on reading Lewis; I did. Several times. You have dodged every time.
My point still stands until you quit dodging.
And I agree with Ty. Even though I have different examples of you being dishonest.
lol! Nice one.
No, no…it’s “You be da man, Daniel.” Consult congresswoman Michelle Bachmann or RNC chairman Michael Steele for the proper use of slang. j/k
Bravo Janet!
I have to call you out on this one, Janet:
I don’t actually think that there is any good way to tell that most of the people in prison are Christians. The fact of the matter is that in the United States, most of the members of any given parole board, or prison, will be Christian, by nature of the general population. Prisoners, as a result, have a good reason to lie to any survey that asks such a question.
That doesn’t mean that the supporting figures are wrong, it just means that there’s no good way to tell if they’re right.
Bill, you make a good point. But don’t you think we have an obligation to expose his character to his congregation?
** Just doin’ the Lord’s work
Mr. Fox won’t be damaged by any revelation made by a bunch of god-hating atheists. His little ark in New London, NC — will not be capsized. (We’re talkin’ the Bible Belt here — Fox sees himself as “liberal.” I believe him.) Support for him will roll forth in a mighty rush of godliness.
Sure it’s small beer. But it’s deliciously ironic. “Baptist minister blogs as atheist” for a headline. “Using multiple aliases, Pastor Chris Fox, pretended to be multiple outspoken atheists. . .” in first para.
When you contrast his claim that he acted without thinking to the fact that he used multiple aliases, Mr. Fox knew what he was doing and why.
I’m hoping that national media will pick up this little story — Worsts on Olbermann — Huffington Post — Daily Show.
Chris Fox and his band of fundies would rejoice in being blessed by electronic martyrdom. And, they would cheerfully see me burning in Hell (as one of the dear Church “Fathers” promised centuries ago).
Amen Bill…see my above post.
Too late, some of the “religious” here have already made sure retribution was served and UF vindicated. I do not condone his deceptive actions, but this whole thing is very sad and unnecessary.
Nah – not really – if they are deluded enough to be sitting in church, I doubt having a pastor that misrepresents himself as an atheist on-line is that big of a problem for them.
I just don’t like the idea of really hurting someone’s reputation over what in the larger scope of things isn’t that big a deal.
I am glad Bill brought this up. I, too, thought about whether we want to ruin this guy’s reputation. But then I realized that this Pastor did not think for a second about whether or not he should ruin the reputation of atheists by lying. He should have thought about it.
I doubt that mere blogs will actually harm the man in any way. Letters to the media might, however. Maybe we should ask him again to apologize, and if he does, we can exhibit good old fashioned human virtue by not turning him over to the wolves.
Just a thought.
Yeah I like it, but it’s a bit confrontational!
Your new pic is the twin towers? Any reason?
I lived in NYC on 9/11/2001. At 55th and Broadway. It still makes me sad to see them.
Any publicity is good publicity, right?
Well, wasn’t it Andy Warhol who said everyone would eventually experience 15 minutes of fame? Maybe he can parlay this into a reality show.
You’ll likely get the same cut-and-paste unconvincingly-apologetic form letter the rest of us did.
Based on the tidbits you’ve dropped about your past, I think your enthusiasm is entirely understandable, Janet. I hope you didn’t think my comment was aimed at you. It wasn’t.
People swear here?
Damn.
I always suspected the number 7 of knowing more than it lets on.
Shit!
Godfuckingdamnit!
It’s part of my charm ;-)
That’s very Christian of you. :)
I admit that I’m glad this didn’t keep escalating.
Id love to know why, if what the Pastor says about god is true.
Id love for the Pastor to answer why his all power/knowing/wise and loving god dosent just give him more evidence to prove his point.
If god is real and really does exist and wants all humans to follow his word. Then how come he dosent inspire christians with stronger evidence.
Why is thier god that loves them, hiding from them instead of revealing himself.
But of course…two wrongs dont make a right.
Forgiveness, mercy…powerful forces indeed.
Dont go fishing in the sea of forgetfulness.
Dang
@ revRoberHall
If a lying pastor bothers you then how come gods acts of deception dont bother you. Im talking about acts such as.
1 Kings 22:23 Yahweh has put a lying spirit into the mouth of all these your prophets.
Ezekiel 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.
2 Thess. 2:11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie…
Whats up with your god doing these things. Maybe these verses are what the Pastor had in mind when he was posting under different identities.
Perhaps the biblegod should join this League:
http://www.evilleagueofevil.com/apply
I love that screen name…that word “misanthropope” but I seriously doubt many here understand it. Not because they are not intelligent, they certainly are but because its such a rarely used and ancient word.
How fitting in this forum and context.
That’s called…retribution. Closely tied to religion (external rule keeping, knowing right from wrong, eating of our own tree of the knowledge of good & evil within us) and the cause of so many of the world’s problems.
Accountability? Sure…but “outing” him after his “confession” and apparently sincere, written apology and subsequent reinstatement seems unduly harsh and unnecessary.
We receive mercy in proportion to the mercy we demonstrate to others.
Mercy me.
Nice…excellent idea.
Thanks for the clarification Ty. I’ll admit that it’s difficult for me to keep emotion out of this issue!
“Enthusiasm becomes fervor so easily…
This is a great line. Mind if I use it?
I’d be flattered, Bill.
I’m afraid that the publicity about his actions is unavoidable at this point. It seems that the story of his little charade has taken on a life of its own. I suspect that the gentleman got enough e-mails from people he respects (i.e. non-atheists) calling him out that it made him rethink his actions. Just because Christians can be classified as self-delusional does not mean that they will tolerate deliberate deliberate lies from a pastor.
So, I’m a bit less skeptical and willing to classify his apology as sincere, unless proven otherwise.
Usually making things public makes people truly apologetic and regret their actions. For instance, would Ted Haggard of been so apologetic of his actions before his scandal broke publicly? I doubt it.
alphonsuspeck – on your avatar based, put this pastor down some more I won’t. Give him the benefit of the doubt I will. Oh wise one :)
I must be the only sci fi fan in the world who can’t stand Yoda.
Ty – I grew up evangelical – had to get my words of wisdom from somewhere!!!
gods acts of deception
Don’t forget Genesis 2:16-17
[16] And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
[17] But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
I agree, which is why I removed the ban.
Forgiven for this you are. Ignorance I tolerate. Always apparent to everyone my awesomeness is not. ;)
Yoda is god. Yoda =love.
Love = Yoda.
Yoda awaits you with open, green arms. There is more. There is Jedi.
EXCELLENT post.
Morality is a fallacy. Its a product of the fall of man, the striation, a tearing away from the whole, the One Mind of and in Him. To “know good & evil for ourselves” eating (living from) the fruit of the tree of Self,the knowledge of good & evil within as opposed to eating (living from) the tree of Life (Christ) within.
We are left with the scattered pieces of dualistic values, assorted “morality” of man who see’s darkly, not clearly so the consequence is…religion. Religion is an external value system that judges by the realm of appearances…so we have numerous distinctions from person to person, from one society to another resulting in endless conflict and even wars in the name of “God”.
The remedy for this external “white-washing” is an internal change of nature, His within. This is the restoration to the original, undisturbed, paradaisical condition. Wholeness, healing and a renewed mind. This obviates the need for external rule-keeping dogma (religion) with all its negative and divisional consequences.
Morality is fragmented system of external religious beliefs, and therefore a weakened human attempt at self-righteousness in the true sense of the word, not the culturally understood meaning. This finds its roots in the man of pride, whose father is adam who was nailed to the cross in Christ. The second man (Christ) is the only type (character/nature/expression) of man Father ever made since He alone is the express image of the Father. We were intended to reflect glory, reflect Him being fashioned in His very image and likeness.
There is more to this “Christ” than you think, more to the story than mere “religion”.
The best ethical decisions are based upon empathy and sympathy for others.
When an ethical decision is based upon black & white, unchanging moral codes, it too often leads to atrocity.
I would venture to say that an atheists morals are demonstratively stronger. If one believes in an omnipotent, jealous god, then the commands of this “god” can override our natural instincts. Killing babies is morally repugnant. But if God says to do it, then, since He defines morality, then it must be alright to do so.
And since many people seem to believe the word of their local religious leader is the word of God as well, if a religious leader says that God wants us to kill babies, then again, our genetic morality is overruled, and we kill because God says it’s okay.
When we hand our morality over to a book or to another human being, our moral encoding goes out the window, and anything is possible.
I surly do not need to bring up examples of this throughout history.
That’s called a “culture of silence.” And it contributes to continued wrong-doing because people are unwilling to blow the whistle. Shame works, and in this case it is well-deserved.
So along that same line of thinking we should start mandating scarlett letters be worn on those guilty of fornication, adultery, infidelity, prostitution? Perhaps they can wear a sandwich board in the town square depicting their particular offense?
Religion & retribution…that’s all it is my friend. Not what Christ offers.
@ teddybouch
” So, if you are reading this and no one’s gotten to you yet, I’m sorry. I’m sorry that people called themselves Christian and told you that you were anything but loved”
mark: If this statement is true, how come god loves grown adults in 2009, but didnt love those babies he drowned during the flood of Noah.
Exactly what bases do you claim that were are loved on.
teddybouch,
Thanks for admitting all that. I know it takes a really strong person to do it. I wish more people could admit their mistakes and vulnerabilities. Even though we disagree on theology, I think you are a wise person.
I like your approach.
teddybouch,
Considering that you’re an admitted Christian, I’m not at all surprised that you think that you could apologize for other people’s behavior but you can’t.
You should take your message to the people who perpetrate and perpetuate the crimes.
The problem is that Jesus is the same vengeful, vindictive, infanticidal nut job described in the Old testament. The cognitive dissonance involved in believing in the “holy trinity” and biblical reality is breath taking. Believing in a fairy tail written down in the “Goat Herders Guide to the Universe” (bible) just seals the deal in confirming a total lack of curiosity and intellectual integrity. Proof and evidence are the basis of modern science and thought and you have divorced yourself from integrity and reality.
Teddybouch is someone I agree with. And yet some of the very folks that get upset if someone calls them “sinful” or “without morals” (or whatever other judging insult intended to question them) respond to him to question his faith? I don’t get that approach at all. Maybe his apology isn’t intended to make up for others as much as it his genuine sense of sorrow for such a poor representation of the truth he is familiar with. You aren’t required to accept it, but responding in such an antagonistic manner certainly doesn’t represent atheists any better than Christians lying does for us. It leads me to believe that your purpose for being here is more so to “debunk” Christianity more than it is to support your spiritual choices and carry on a healthy discussion. And trying to prove Christianity wrong is just about as effective as trying to prove that Atheism is. It’s a very moot point.
I agree that we can aspire toward wholeness. That makes sense. What does NOT make sense is the Pauline concept of “perfection”. We were not made perfect – we were not “meant to be” perfect – we will NEVER be perfect. Just human. That whole perfection business (to get into heaven) has cost waaaaay too much already.
I see christianity very much like Hollywood. Both are obsessed with perfection; both sell “perfection” at the expense of health (mental, physical, “spiritual”). Until we lose this wrong-headed view, we will achieve very little. We do not expect animals to be perfect; we are human animals (only difference – higher intelligence / consciousness etc.) Wouldn’t it be silly if I said that my cat must achieve perfection or it can’t enter heaven. I would have to tell my cat about his sinful, selfish nature and how he needs to REPENT and get salvation – then he will be perfect and enter heaven. Fortunately for felines, they would probably call this bullsh*t the minute they heard it and would laugh hysterically. Too bad so many humans are far more gullible.
This is my big beef with religious types. They make one statement after another that is completely unsupportable in any regard and try to label it as some kind of “universal truth” when, in reality, it’s little more than imaginative speculation.
“Morality is a fallacy. Its a product of the fall of man, the striation, a tearing away from the whole, the One Mind of and in Him.”
Cute. And it all sounds very impressive too, if you don’t spend any time thinking about it. Objective evidence for any part of this claim? Aside from Bible quotations, I’m sure you haven’t a shred of support for this assertion.
“Wholeness, healing and a renewed mind. This obviates the need for external rule-keeping dogma (religion) with all its negative and divisional consequences.”
Wholeness? Meaning what? If I’m a paraplegic I’m doomed? Healing? Healing what, our bodies, our souls, our psyches? And what the hell is a “renewed mind.” All very flowery prose, and all entirely nonsense.
Frankly, I’ll tell you what will “obviate” the need for religion – when we all finally begin to accept responsibility for the destiny of our own species (and ultimately, our planet) instead of leaving it up to the whimsical musings of a long-dead tribal community.
That’s an interesting statement.
I don’t mean to pry – Christian, that I am – but I have to say: I’m not hiding. I’m not ashamed. I’m not shouting. And I’m not lying.
There were plenty of freethinkers in Paul’s day (of the Bible) and he went to jail for his beliefs. That’s just one example of a believer not hiding, shouting or lying. So you may want to be a little more tempered, like most of your friends here who’ve I’ve been surprised to find are treating this issue fairly reasonably, and rethink your use of the word ‘only’.
And, I might add, sometimes the din of excuses, unbelief, disregard, denial and ignorance-fueled hatred must be shouted over in order for truth to be heard.
John-
It’s not true that people’s prejudices (in this case against atheists) aren’t harmful. How many atheists have you seen in pubic office? People have to “affiliate” with a church if they want to get elected. That’s pretty ridiculous in a country where freedom of religion (or freedom from it) are guaranteed rights!
If one demands justice, be assured he will get it. God says that in His economy…mercy triumphs over judgment. James 2:13.
In the same way we measure it out to others we will also receive it in return. So how much mercy do you want? Show that by how much you…give.
To borrow a “non-christian” line (which I’m sure you will all appreciate coming from me)…be the change you wish to see in the world. Ghandi
Mercy, mercy.
Yes, but there is a difference between mercy and standing up for oneself. If women in the early 20th century had been merciful (turned the other cheek, or followed the bible’s commandment to obey your government) or whatever, I would not have the right to vote today. This pastor deliberately tried to make atheists look like awful, immoral people. That it prejudice! It should be fought against! And after the pastor issued an apology to Daniel (as well he should have), Daniel forgave him and allowed him to post here again.
“some of the “religious” here”
I love how you live in a world where you get to define what words mean. Now religious means something completely different just because you defined it that way. You’re like Humpty Dumpty.
‘When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone,’ it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.’
Religion is external and always demands its own justice, sets its own standards. This is why this world is so very…divided and not whole or one.
This is no different from what I have been sharing with you guys for months now, only this time its on the other foot…the atheists foot. Or did you not know the condition (religiosity) runs rampant through all of mankind?
Its a consequence of the fall, the curse of man. Only an internal change of nature can remedy this edemic malady…anyone come to mind?
Ahemm…
So are you suggesting that disbelief in religious claims automatically implies “denial” and “ignorance-fueled hatred”?
Wow, the projection really is too much to bear.
“And, I might add, sometimes the din of excuses, unbelief, disregard, denial and ignorance-fueled hatred must be shouted over in order for truth to be heard.”
Excuses, maybe, but as to the rest of those (unbelief in particular), the best way to get results is to offer facts and evidence to support your point. Shouting isn’t going to suddenly make someone believe something, especially if what you’re wanting them to believe in is ludicrous. Times like those are when you definitely need solid evidence. Extraordinary claims and all that.
As for ignorance fueled hatred, again, shouting probably wouldn’t help, either. It would probably only make things worse. If that hatred truly is fueled by ignorance then, again, facts would enlighten them.
“sometimes the din of excuses, unbelief, disregard, denial and ignorance-fueled hatred must be shouted over in order for truth to be heard.”
I agree.
But you Christians seem not to listen even then.
Of course your not hiding, shouting or lying; that’s why you have no chance to win an argument.
Not Roger…I was referencing VJack…religion always demands justice. In Gods economy mercy always triumphs over judgment (justice).
The reply threads get kinda messy sometimes, confusing, sorry.
Damn censorship!
I totally agree!!!
Agreed. Some of us don’t.
Lol, the scarlet letter analogy makes me laugh.
John C, do you know about the symbolism in that?
You’re the one who’s always asking me about symbolism, lol.
“church” and institutionalized religion is all external and mostly agenda oriented, ie rule-keeping dogma, etc and so not what Christ came to offer which is tied to an internal change of nature, His within.
Religion is always external, spirituality (Christ’s true offer and message) is an internal matter.
No wonder they dont want to “go to church”. “Church” is meant to occur on the inside of us, fellowship within.
Tele…the idea that pastor Fox “owes” anybody anything is…self righteousness.
Its all external/behavior modification techniques (white-washing) and demands for change which can never remedy the real (internal) problem tied to the need for an entirely new nature.
We “label” things in society…but they are incapable of changing regardless how much one shines up the exterior.
“Why didn’t atheists write in with “Listen pal I’m also an atheist and I think you’re insane” … NOPE!
That didn’t happen and it doesn’t ever happen. ”
Um.. that’s what’s happening now. In the thread you are commenting in.
I guess you could be trolling, but even if you were, you could put a bit more effort into it. It’s a stupid waste of time, whether you’re serious or not. Try harder, be it at trolling or thinking. Until then, you should probably think twice before posting. I’m not sure you’re worth the mild annoyance that accompanies you.
Did you even READ the article? TWO people immediately called the guy out!!!
And calling atheists “nutty godless retards” shows us exactly what kind of person you are.
“Godless retards”?? How does that glorify God?
You called someone other than yourself a retard? Really?
Because, man, your post is an epic fail.
“Oh aren’t all you holier-than-thou atheists shocked and outraged?! ”
Not shocked at all. People ‘lie for Jesus’ all the time. We *expect* this kind of crappy behavior from theist apologists. And most of us are well past being outraged.
“If you were all so outraged, why didn’t you turn on the guy when he wrote what he wrote?
Why didn’t atheists write in with “Listen pal I’m also an atheist and I think you’re insane” … NOPE!
That didn’t happen and it doesn’t ever happen. ”
It did happen, within seconds of the initial post. I and another poster immediately pointed out that he was lying, and presenting an argument that no atheist would actually make. Do you know how to read? Or did you get your mommy to type this tantrum up for you?
“The atheists are SOOOO-non-judgemental of FELLOW ATHEISTS ONLY.”
Since we knew he wasn’t making any sort of honest point, how does this statement make any sense at all?
“Oh the hilarity of you nutty godless retards.”
This is the best you can do? I assume you are using ‘nutty’ as a slang term for some form of insanity, but it’s fairly limp. ‘Godless’ is a compliment around these parts, so you failed there. And ‘retards’? After that poorly worded and nonsensical rant you just went on that demonstrated that you have no reading comprehension or rational thinking skills whatsoever, you are calling someone else a retard?
Now get back in your box until the next time we need to laugh at someone.
” The atheists are SOOOO-non-judgemental of FELLOW ATHEISTS ONLY.
Oh the hilarity of you nutty godless retards. ”
mark: Billy our arguments aren’t about us being perfect or even more moral than Christian’s? We never try to prove that all atheist are more moral than believers. Of any kind.
Please don’t forget that as imperfect humans we judge things and people all of the time.
I have a question for you my friend. If your sky daddy god really does exist.
Then exactly why do you believers, who have the almighty on your side always run from debate or discussion?
How is it that Christian’s can have the all wise, all powerful all everything god 100% on thier side yet always run from a bunch of godless atheist.
What exactly is your reason for calling us retards. Is it because we easily discredit your argument.
Lets talk about exactly why you think we (athiest) are slow. Id bet you wed win that argument as well.
Charming Billy,
Atheists tell other atheists when they are being a bit off. Case in point:
http://atheistexperience.blogspot.com/2008/07/patrick-greene-checks-in.html
But you know, it’s easier to paint us all with that wide brush than it is to do a one-minute Google search.
Oh the hilarity!
BILLY, I don’t know what dope you’re on.
But wintermute and Ty *DID* observe the insanity of his comments, and criticized him as soon as he posted them.
Distorting the truth is all convienent, isn’t it?
Facts are stubborn things.
Resident Christian, John C., brays……”Religion & retribution…that’s all it is my friend. Not what Christ offers.”
::yawn::
So then, evidentally, all of the text found in the “Holy Bible”, aka, “God’s Word”, is not what its protagonist, “God”(or its “Son”) “offers”. Correct?
Assuming this is a fair assessment—then it is perfectly reasonable for us to conclude that the text which constitutes “the offer”, and the text which is ultimately irrelevent to “the offer”, is totally, 100%, reliant upon the reader of the text to discern which is the legit’ “offer”, and which is the ramblings of ancient, uneducated man, in their attempt to control man(or whatever other agendas they may have had then). Agreed?
Again, assuming there is agreement, then you, “John C.”, in order to not be seen as the obnoxious, disingenuous, self-righteous fanatic, that I, and apparently others think you are, need to either provide some sort of objective evidence that illustrates to us that you are incapable of human error, in that, you *know* for certain which text is legit’, and which text is not….. or, you should really refrain from coming here and asserting that which you are not qualified to assert.
__________________________________
Let’s see, everybody………
Will John C. rise to the occasion, and for once, get honest here? Or will he persist in his disingenuous, thoroughly *unconvincing* ministering techniques?
Hmmm….I wonder.[/sarcasm]
It’s a combination of misanthropy and pope. It’s a funny screen name.
What does that word mean in your world, John? Is it a real word there?
First, good on you. I give some posters here a lot of shit for cowardly dodging of the point, which I find very dishonest. Facing the music is muy macho. Bueno.
Second, I assume it was frustration that pushed you over the bend the first time, and I can only say that the frustration level will NOT go down.
The base membership of this site is former evangelicals (and other Christian sects) who left their religion due to an honest analysis of the evidence for it. We are comprised of people who’ve read the bible cover to cover, multiple times. We’ve read Aquinas and Lewis and all the apologists. Some of us read Greek and Hebrew. Some of us are trained pastors with divinity degrees. ALL of us love to argue.
If you want to pick the toughest possible crowd to ‘witness’ to, you’ve found it. We will be quick to point out your logical fallacies. We will have three bible quotes to rebut every quote you use. We’ll demand evidence that you, frankly, just won’t be able to produce.
And no one (that I know of) here is a seeker, just waiting for the right expression of god’s love to win our hearts. We’ve done that dance, and now we are more likely to point and laugh then to fall on our knees and pray.
If you still want to hang around here, welcome.
As the second person to point out the lie that caught you, let me also be one of the first to say, “No hard feelings.”
Apology accepted as far as I’m concerned. Thanks for coming back to offer it. It takes courage to admit mistakes.
Please keep in mind what TY eloquently said. If you are going to argue with us (and we will argue), you’ve picked a tough crowd. If you are still interested we will gladly debate, but don’t expect you are going to win us over.
I’m interested by something you said. What did you mean by this?
“I saw I what I thought was mischaracterization of Christians …”
Thank you and echoing Ty, welcome to a tough challenge.
Firstly congratulations for apologising as I’m sure that admitting your mistake in such a public way was not an easy thing to do. Secondly I think the whole thing has been blown out of proportion — when I see some of the descriptions of your actions I can’t help feeling that a lot is been made out of nothing. What’s happening in Sudan, the inequality in many Western Nations, people being screwed over by banks and losing their houses this is what I find wrong … you acting a bit daft, no sorry I really don’t see what all the fuss is about. We all do things from time to time and think bugger did I do that? That’s the way life is.
Oh and a hint — if you go trolling again try to make the troll posts a little more convincing. A better line to take would have been dropping the whole atheist thing (far to obvious to mention) and pushing for I don’t see anything morally wrong with being sexual promiscuous but in a slight more subtle way … :-)
CSF,
Glad you faced the music.
Although most of us, Including myself, will probably not agree with your views, I know your opinions will be appreciated.
Adeesh
Aside from apologizing here…have you told your congregation of your deception? Don’t they have the right to know how you represented “the faith” in a public forum?
As I said earlier in the thread, I thought your earlier identities were polite, respectful and thoughtful, even if they didn’t always come over as the most intelligent people to have posted here.
If you are willing to remain at that level, I’m sure that no-one will have any problem with forgiving you your “lapse” and welcoming you back with open arms.
However (pastor Fox, and anyone else who happens to be reading this), if you ever feel the urge to impersonate atheists to make a rhetorical point, I strongly urge you to find another way to phrase it. And you’re probably best off doing a little research to see if your position is even coherent, or is held by any actual atheist.
If I were to go to a Christian forum and explain that, as a Christian, I feel perfectly justified in killing people because it’s to their benefit if they go to heaven (and if they don’t go to heaven, we probably didn’t want them on Earth any more, either); then I’m sure you’d be disgusted that someone would make such a stupid, ill-thought-out and offensive caricature of Christians and knew little enough about the subject that they expected it to be taken seriously.
Think upon that if you’re ever tempted to make such a stupid claim about being an atheist.
It doesnt mean anything to you because you do not possess a sense of what has been lost, the true breadth of our intended identities. We are a bit like the proverbial frog in the boiling pot of water, we have acclimated to this lowered, fleshly condition when we once shared in such beauty, such glory.
Think…Jonathan Livingston Seagull. We settle for less than the best, and so that’s what we end up with. When the truth of Christ’s offer & message is comprehended we see more of what was, what is available for us in Him.
Its nothing like the traditional religious message we are all so weary of.
Ok.
Perfect gravatar for an evil, murdering atheist – well, almost perfect.
Are you some kind of Poe?
Pathetic.
The simple answer is that everyone, you included, is a moral relativist when it comes right down to it. Your moral views are based on the society you grew up in, and the standards by which that society functions. There is no objective morality. Just look at how different our moral system is from the morality of the bible. We think owning slaves is evil, whether you beat them or not, just as an example.
In many older warrior based societies, it was entirely moral and legal to stab a man to death as long as you warned him ahead of time and he was armed too.
Not much more than a century ago, shooting a man dead in the streets of frontier America would have also been legal, as long as it was a ‘fair fight’.
The native American populations had many rights of passage that we would call ’stealing’. To them, they were bravery tests and a way to collect trophies.
There have been any number of cultures that practiced ritual cannibalism.
Prior to the 1970’s, it was not possible for a man to be legally accused of raping a woman he was married to.
Morality changes all the time. The fact that you and I grew up in the same part of the world at the same general point in time and thus share many of the same social taboos is NOT an argument in favor of objective morality.
So the entire foundation of your argument is fallacious.
Most of us here don’t encourage private email dialogue as it cuts everyone else out. Open discussion benefits everyone (at least potentially).
As Ty and others above have said about morality… it’s a social mechanism. Without it, we wouldn’t have reached the point we are now, we’re still be very primitive and living in tribes and packs.
For me, my morality comes from a strong need to be accepted, to fit in. We all have this, to some degree. Don’t look at this as the insecure kid hanging out with the bad kids, but instead think of it as fitting in with your family and friends, or at work. It’s the social setting that sets the base for morality.
A couple broad generalizations:
That’s why gang members can kill without it bothering them, because they wont be cast out of their social setting. That’s why drug users can steal, for the same reason.
That’s why I don’t lie (at least, I try my hardest not to, I prefer hard truths and soft lies), because to be caught in a lie would be a betrayal to everyone I know. They know me as an honest, good, helpful guy. If I were to be caught in a horrible lie, then that identity would be taken from me.
We are all subject to live how we have been identified. Sometimes this changes. In the example above, the drug user wasn’t a born drug user, he became one over time. As someone who has had lots of experience with people who use drugs, I have seen how they change bit by bit. They start doing things that they never would have beforehand, until eventually you can’t even recognize them anymore.
This happens all the time. The social setting changes, and the morality changes too.
Now, is Christianity a GOOD moral system for all to aspire to?
In my opinion, no. But it does have some parts of it that -are- worth keeping and doing. It’s the “why” that Christianity has wrong, in my opinion. Heaven as a reward for doing the hard walk by being a morally upright person, and doing well for your fellow man. That is not what we need anymore. Maybe a few thousand years ago, we did need that carrot to become good, but in this day and age…
It should be enough to just be good for goodness sake.
“My intention was to gather from whence they come and who determines them?”
They come from social structures largely dictated by physiology, to be overly simplistic.
Humans are physical creatures, with various needs to maintain their life. The reproduce and raise their young in ways that can be more or less optimal. They are also, by instinct, herd creatures or pack animals.
Moral systems evolve to allow the greatest number of our pack to survive and thrive, depending on how you define your pack. And as that definition changes, so do our morals.
A while back, black people from Africa were not part of the white American’s pack. Therefore, using Africans to do work that white people would otherwise have had to do was a great way to get their pack to thrive. Once they decided that, in fact, black people WERE part of the pack, then that social system adapted to accommodate the new pack definition.
Just as we evolve physically, so too do our social systems evolve in an attempt to increase pack ‘fitness’.
The answer to ‘who determines them’ is: we do. All of us. By surviving or not surviving. By thriving or withering. By passing our ideals on to the next generation, or by being supplanted by new and better ideas.
Crocodiles, one of the most lethal animals on the planet, almost never fight to the death. They have elaborate dominance displays instead. Who taught them that not killing each other is the best way to solve disputes? Is that a ‘moral’ choice they make?
You’re talking to people who were Christian for many years.
I don’t think this is a valid criticism. Do you have the idea that to be atheist you have to have never even met a Christian?
“What I meant by that was that I know many many Christians who exemplify love (not perfection) and grace, and give so much of their time, money, and talents to the church.”
If I understand correctly, you are saying that characterizations of christians here didn’t match up with your experience. Fair enough, like you I know plenty of really good people who are christian.
Problem is christians, by the nature of being christians, hold themselves out as having answers to life’s secrets. They often (very often) represent to the rest of the world that those answers create “blessing” and “hapiness” and “perfect love.” Observation of these people often (very often) shows no such result. We point that out.
Moreover, the “not a true christian” argument is really growing tiresome. It seems like every christian I run in to tells me that I should ignore the hypocrisy and meanness of anyone who calls themselves christian because they aren’t “true christians.” Seriously are there ANY true christians? How the hell am I suppose to sort out the true ones from the false ones.
Besides, why would an all knowing and loving god allow all these false christians to run around ruining his good name anyway?
I see what you did there.
ahh pastor you haven’t seen the latest ARIS report only 76 percent of the country identifies themselves as Christians and that’s edging down.
That’s awful. I’m sorry for you.
About my worst story was that when I was a kid, I killed a bird with a stick. I full well expected it to fly away and I was going to miss, but nope.
It was a disquieting moment for me. It’s the first time, and only time, I’d ever killed a creature like that (I’ve killed bugs, who hasn’t, but never anything that bleeds).
Truthfully, theirs probably is.
The god of the bible is a pretty vengeful character who rejoiced in violent death.
Gee Sock thx, love you too man….haha.
Sorry mate. :P I hear what you say, but like I said before, it’s just the same things over and over again. I get it, but I don’t buy it.
Its ok I understand. I am convinced that one of the biggest obstacles to living this new life that we are offered is the fact that its literally just too good to believe, we cant get our hearts and minds around it. It goes against the grain of our life experiences and so we view believing in it as such high and foolish risk.
Have you ever gone into a bookstore and headed directly for the childrens section? Why is it that children can hear those fairy tales and us grown ups cant?
There is more to all this than meets they eye, of this I am certain.
All the best.
I’ve never replied to that argument before, but I will now.
The reason why I don’t go to the children’s section is because I am not a child. Those stories are written to appeal to and entertain children. They are not meant to be literal stories for the children to believe, they are meant to be examples that teach a moral lesson. And you know, if I were to pick up a children’s book now and read it, then I am confident that I would be able to see through the poetry and read the moral message.
Let us not also forget that the child couldread the story, and just be entertained by the fantasy and the pictures, but miss the moral lesson altogether.
I guess this George MacDonald quote is really where I was headed with that last post Sock…
“THERE IS A CHILDHOOD into which we have to grow, just as there is a childhood which we must leave behind. One is a childishness from which but few of those who are counted wisest among men have freed themselves. The other is a child-likeness, which is the highest gain of humanity”. GM
It is this very condition which makes ready for the entrance into this kingdom here and now as Christ taught. We need freedom from the fangs of religion and a re-kindling of the innocence of which we departed.
More than a common misconception, John. I would say virtually a universal misconception. So, if we don’t find morality from God, then what of the Biblical laws? If not based on morality, what were they based on? What were the 10 commandments?
More specifically, and the question I want to know the answer too, is where do you get these answers? Your church? Your deductive reasoning? Simple faith?
Thx Alphons…Morality is defined as a “doctrine or system of moral conduct”. This is tied to principle. We were never intended to live by principle but rather by the spirit of wisdom.
God is a spirit (John 4:4) In the spirit there is no duality, no potential for both good & evil, only good. God is One, not a plurality in nature, no “shadow of turning”, only Light.
Hence, He does not function from a “system” of right & wrong as we do if we are not also “walking in the spirit”. Morality assumes a “choice” between one decision or another, a right and a wrong. God is not limited in this manner.
This is the innocence Christ restores to us, this was also our original condition in the Edenic, paradaisical state or “garden”. This is why I so often speak of the foolish necessity of childlikeness, trust as the gateway into the realm of this kingdom of God in the here and now.
You asked, where do I get this stuff from? Please consider the following words tied to your question: “We speak the hidden, mystical wisdom of God, which God ordained before the world unto our glory” (1 Cor 2:7) and…”it is the glory of God to conceal a matter and the glory of kings (us) to search it out” Proverbs 25:2.
These truths are from the spirit of God. And He lives within. For “Christ IN you is the mystery of the ages”. Col 1:27.
All the best…
I will acknowledge that by logical assumption that God would not be bound by a choice of right and wrong.
What you speak of reminds me of poor understanding of Buddhist teaching…the elimination of self and of thought and allowing flowing with the current, so to speak. The current, in your thinking, is the innocence of Christ. In secular thought, it might be considered simply the release of our misconceptions and allowing the pure, evolutionary moralities ingrained in us to rule.
Ideally, in the secular view, the conscious mind would take over enough to overrule the obvious problems with evolutionary programming…the greater realization that our local “tribe” is tied into a greater worldwide system.
Whether these results come from secular reasoning or from childlike faith in Christ is immaterial…the final result should be largely the same.
The danger, of course, lies in the flawed nature of humanity. Trusting our inner instincts (in the secular sense) is dangerous if our brains are “distorted” because of mental illness or brain damage. Similarly, trusting the innocence of Christ is dangerous for the same reasons. A friend of mine was in a mental hospital where she was in a bed next to a person who believed she had an invisible pet ferret. The ferret told her to jump off a bridge. She survived.
Distinguishing between the words of a “true” Christ in our souls and an “imaginary” Christ that arise from dementia would be very difficult, as the mental distortions that give rise to the imaginary would be hidden to us.
Not sure what my point is. Merely raising points for discussion.
Personally, I think my cat is perfect. But even if he wasn’t, I wouldn’t send him to hell for not calling me “master” (cat’s aren’t big on groveling, and neither should we be). Guess I’m a wee bit more merciful than god.
Nice try. What everyone here has been saying is that the morals of our society arose as a natural outgrowth of the progression of human knowledge. Rather than coming from the sky god on high, our morals have advanced and changed over time. If there was a “light,” that gave us our morals, then our morals would be unchanged from the dawn of civilization. Thankfully, that’s not the case, because I was a pretty rebellious kid, and I’m not sure my parents would’ve been able to resist stoning me if it was socially acceptable.
Please, don’t drag quantum physics into theological concepts like sin and forgiveness. That’s just daft. And don’t capitalize the Q and the P – it makes it even more obvious you’ve no idea what quantum physics is and that you’re simply using it for cheap woo points.
“Like it or not, you are following the Light.”
What the frak does that mean?
You’re right. It doesn’t justify anything about atheism.
But then, that’s not what this is about. This is about pointing out that you godly folk are far from what you want to be.
How loving of you. Obviously, our fear of eternal damnation from your sky god will soften our hardened hearts and we’ll all see the error of our ways. Why don’t you go scare some sunday school kids with that load of bull? A lot of the atheists here came out of that crap, and we know all your moves. Take it elsewhere.
Those kind of ugly comments do nothing for God or humanity.
Marley…
Christ didnt teach a “sky-God” concept, actually quite the opposite.
The question is, where can you find Him?
Christ IN you is the mystery of the ages. Col 1:27