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	<title>Comments on: Do Animals Have Morality?</title>
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	<link>http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/06/09/do-animals-have-morality/</link>
	<description>Reasonable Thoughts on Religion, Science, Skepticism, and Atheism</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 21 Nov 2009 02:47:03 -0500</lastBuildDate>
	
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		<title>By: Janet Greene</title>
		<link>http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/06/09/do-animals-have-morality/#comment-71102</link>
		<dc:creator>Janet Greene</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Nov 2009 18:35:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://unreasonablefaith.com/?p=5084#comment-71102</guid>
		<description>You have to define morality first, before attempting to answer this question.  I think we are a lot more like the other mammals than we like to think.  For example, generally speaking, a child growing up in a nurturing, loving, respectful home, with humor and kindness, will likely grow up to be a productive, gentle, person.  A person who is abused or neglected with struggle with issues - will struggle to be &quot;moral&quot;.  For example, I was &quot;numb&quot; for years because of a difficult childhood (christian home, no less) and I felt there was something wrong with me because I did not feel that I  had a normal conscience.  Turns out I needed to let go of past pain, then my natural conscience showed itself.  Now I am empathetic, care about other people, animals and the environment, feel &quot;connected&quot; with others, etc. This, to me, is true &quot;morality&quot;. It is not a set of rules - it is living by kindness and love.  I raised my two cats by these standards, and they are gentle to the core, as well as empathetic and &quot;connected&quot; to each other and to me.   The only difference between me and my cats is that I had a higher intelligence - a self-awareness that enabled me to &quot;fix&quot; myself.  If an animal grows up in a cruel home, they can&#039;t do that so they are stuck with their &quot;issues&quot; forever (in their case it might be mistrust, anger, skittishness, etc.).  

Am I going too deep on this question????</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You have to define morality first, before attempting to answer this question.  I think we are a lot more like the other mammals than we like to think.  For example, generally speaking, a child growing up in a nurturing, loving, respectful home, with humor and kindness, will likely grow up to be a productive, gentle, person.  A person who is abused or neglected with struggle with issues &#8211; will struggle to be &#8220;moral&#8221;.  For example, I was &#8220;numb&#8221; for years because of a difficult childhood (christian home, no less) and I felt there was something wrong with me because I did not feel that I  had a normal conscience.  Turns out I needed to let go of past pain, then my natural conscience showed itself.  Now I am empathetic, care about other people, animals and the environment, feel &#8220;connected&#8221; with others, etc. This, to me, is true &#8220;morality&#8221;. It is not a set of rules &#8211; it is living by kindness and love.  I raised my two cats by these standards, and they are gentle to the core, as well as empathetic and &#8220;connected&#8221; to each other and to me.   The only difference between me and my cats is that I had a higher intelligence &#8211; a self-awareness that enabled me to &#8220;fix&#8221; myself.  If an animal grows up in a cruel home, they can&#8217;t do that so they are stuck with their &#8220;issues&#8221; forever (in their case it might be mistrust, anger, skittishness, etc.).  </p>
<p>Am I going too deep on this question????</p>
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		<title>By: Aghra</title>
		<link>http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/06/09/do-animals-have-morality/#comment-71096</link>
		<dc:creator>Aghra</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Nov 2009 17:51:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://unreasonablefaith.com/?p=5084#comment-71096</guid>
		<description>but the dog protecting the rapist does not know that his master is a rapist or a murderer. If I had just found out that my father was a murderer and someone tried to shoot him i would probably still protect him because the emotional ties are stronger than the information. The case is the same with the dog you mentioned. 

Obviously animal morality isnt the same as human morality but as maintained by darwin it is ridiculous to propose that a being capable of feeling empathy, sympathy and love, as higher animals demonstrably can, does not have some sense of morality. 
Also, to compare animal morality with human morality is fruitless as the term &quot;rapist&quot; means very little to a dog...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>but the dog protecting the rapist does not know that his master is a rapist or a murderer. If I had just found out that my father was a murderer and someone tried to shoot him i would probably still protect him because the emotional ties are stronger than the information. The case is the same with the dog you mentioned. </p>
<p>Obviously animal morality isnt the same as human morality but as maintained by darwin it is ridiculous to propose that a being capable of feeling empathy, sympathy and love, as higher animals demonstrably can, does not have some sense of morality.<br />
Also, to compare animal morality with human morality is fruitless as the term &#8220;rapist&#8221; means very little to a dog&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: P.S.</title>
		<link>http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/06/09/do-animals-have-morality/#comment-52211</link>
		<dc:creator>P.S.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 13:24:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://unreasonablefaith.com/?p=5084#comment-52211</guid>
		<description>I think it depends on how do you define &#039;morality&#039;. If you think a dog biting human is right for that dog, then the same goes for man killing another man from another family, or another country, or whatever the difference. But I don&#039;t think so.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it depends on how do you define &#8216;morality&#8217;. If you think a dog biting human is right for that dog, then the same goes for man killing another man from another family, or another country, or whatever the difference. But I don&#8217;t think so.</p>
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		<title>By: Siberia</title>
		<link>http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/06/09/do-animals-have-morality/#comment-46341</link>
		<dc:creator>Siberia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Jun 2009 14:32:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://unreasonablefaith.com/?p=5084#comment-46341</guid>
		<description>Oi, what&#039;s wrong with licking genitals? ;p
Just kiddin&#039;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oi, what&#8217;s wrong with licking genitals? ;p<br />
Just kiddin&#8217;.</p>
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		<title>By: Siberia</title>
		<link>http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/06/09/do-animals-have-morality/#comment-46340</link>
		<dc:creator>Siberia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Jun 2009 14:29:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://unreasonablefaith.com/?p=5084#comment-46340</guid>
		<description>OH! *enlightened* I grok it now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OH! *enlightened* I grok it now.</p>
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		<title>By: Siberia</title>
		<link>http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/06/09/do-animals-have-morality/#comment-46339</link>
		<dc:creator>Siberia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Jun 2009 14:28:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://unreasonablefaith.com/?p=5084#comment-46339</guid>
		<description>Thanks :) I&#039;m always for learning new words.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks :) I&#8217;m always for learning new words.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan L.</title>
		<link>http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/06/09/do-animals-have-morality/#comment-46240</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan L.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 22:55:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://unreasonablefaith.com/?p=5084#comment-46240</guid>
		<description>Well said, Sean.  Couldn&#039;t agree more.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well said, Sean.  Couldn&#8217;t agree more.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/06/09/do-animals-have-morality/#comment-46197</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 17:53:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://unreasonablefaith.com/?p=5084#comment-46197</guid>
		<description>Edward Abbey, from the wonderful book, Desert Solitaire, writing about two snakes he came across:

&quot;I will feel their presence watching over me like totemic deities....

&quot;How can I descent to such antrhopomorphoism? Easily - but is it, in this case entirely false? Perhaps not. I am not attributing human attributes to my snake and bird acquaintances. I recognize that when they serve purposes of mine they do so for beautifully selfish reasons of their own. Which is exactly the way it should be. I suggest, however, that it&#039;s a foolish, simple minded rationalism which denies any form of emotion to all animals but man and his dog. This is is no more justified than Moslems are in denying souls to women. It seem to me possible, even probable, that many of the nonhuman undomesticaed animals experience emotions unkknown to us. What do coyotes mean they yodel at the moon? What are the dolphins trying so patiently to tell us?&quot;

Then he quotes Walt Whitman:

&quot;They do not sweat and whine about their condition,
They do not lie awake in the dark and weep for their sins...&quot;

(The quote continues: &quot;they do not make me sick discussing their duty to God, not one is dissatisfied, not one is demented with the mania of owning things, not one kneels to another, nor to his kind that lived thousands of years ago.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Edward Abbey, from the wonderful book, Desert Solitaire, writing about two snakes he came across:</p>
<p>&#8220;I will feel their presence watching over me like totemic deities&#8230;.</p>
<p>&#8220;How can I descent to such antrhopomorphoism? Easily &#8211; but is it, in this case entirely false? Perhaps not. I am not attributing human attributes to my snake and bird acquaintances. I recognize that when they serve purposes of mine they do so for beautifully selfish reasons of their own. Which is exactly the way it should be. I suggest, however, that it&#8217;s a foolish, simple minded rationalism which denies any form of emotion to all animals but man and his dog. This is is no more justified than Moslems are in denying souls to women. It seem to me possible, even probable, that many of the nonhuman undomesticaed animals experience emotions unkknown to us. What do coyotes mean they yodel at the moon? What are the dolphins trying so patiently to tell us?&#8221;</p>
<p>Then he quotes Walt Whitman:</p>
<p>&#8220;They do not sweat and whine about their condition,<br />
They do not lie awake in the dark and weep for their sins&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>(The quote continues: &#8220;they do not make me sick discussing their duty to God, not one is dissatisfied, not one is demented with the mania of owning things, not one kneels to another, nor to his kind that lived thousands of years ago.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Sean</title>
		<link>http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/06/09/do-animals-have-morality/#comment-46136</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 09:10:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://unreasonablefaith.com/?p=5084#comment-46136</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s because you&#039;re agreeing with me :)

What I am trying to say is that morality isn&#039;t real. You&#039;re not born with it, it&#039;s not an existing thing. It is a concept that we have come to create for ourselves. The conditioned responses we have, the same as ants teaching ants, is something we simply call morality, when really its nothin more than learned social responses. The supposed &quot;Laws of Morality&quot; simply dont exist. 

Thank you for restatin my argument in clearer terms. There really isn&#039;t any real difference between the learned responses of different species other than cognitive capacity. I apologize if I didn&#039;t make that clear. My main point, though, is that the contemporary concept of morality simply does not exist. It&#039;s fabricated through human culture, just like the religions AND rules of law different moral codes adhere to. Morality, like language, is an arbitrary system.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s because you&#8217;re agreeing with me :)</p>
<p>What I am trying to say is that morality isn&#8217;t real. You&#8217;re not born with it, it&#8217;s not an existing thing. It is a concept that we have come to create for ourselves. The conditioned responses we have, the same as ants teaching ants, is something we simply call morality, when really its nothin more than learned social responses. The supposed &#8220;Laws of Morality&#8221; simply dont exist. </p>
<p>Thank you for restatin my argument in clearer terms. There really isn&#8217;t any real difference between the learned responses of different species other than cognitive capacity. I apologize if I didn&#8217;t make that clear. My main point, though, is that the contemporary concept of morality simply does not exist. It&#8217;s fabricated through human culture, just like the religions AND rules of law different moral codes adhere to. Morality, like language, is an arbitrary system.</p>
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		<title>By: Rex Devious</title>
		<link>http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/06/09/do-animals-have-morality/#comment-46120</link>
		<dc:creator>Rex Devious</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 02:27:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://unreasonablefaith.com/?p=5084#comment-46120</guid>
		<description>In this context a sense of Right and Wrong is assumed the equivalent of &quot;Morality&quot;; so yes, animals (including people) have a sense of that. The difference between dogs and cats in this regard is that the definition of right and wrong for them is defined by us - not society at large. Well, assuming their indoor pets.

That doesn&#039;t mean our definitions of right and wrong and good ones, just that they exist. One can just as easily teach a domesticated animal to bite, or not bite strangers. To sleep on, or not sleep on, a given piece of furniture. To beg, or not beg for food.

You cannot however, teach them not to lick their genitals. That doesn&#039;t mean they don&#039;t know it&#039;s considered wrong - it just means there are some things in life more important than conforming to what&#039;s been defined as morality for you, and genital licking is apparently one of them.

Which may also explain why Sara Palin&#039;s daughter is pregnant.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In this context a sense of Right and Wrong is assumed the equivalent of &#8220;Morality&#8221;; so yes, animals (including people) have a sense of that. The difference between dogs and cats in this regard is that the definition of right and wrong for them is defined by us &#8211; not society at large. Well, assuming their indoor pets.</p>
<p>That doesn&#8217;t mean our definitions of right and wrong and good ones, just that they exist. One can just as easily teach a domesticated animal to bite, or not bite strangers. To sleep on, or not sleep on, a given piece of furniture. To beg, or not beg for food.</p>
<p>You cannot however, teach them not to lick their genitals. That doesn&#8217;t mean they don&#8217;t know it&#8217;s considered wrong &#8211; it just means there are some things in life more important than conforming to what&#8217;s been defined as morality for you, and genital licking is apparently one of them.</p>
<p>Which may also explain why Sara Palin&#8217;s daughter is pregnant.</p>
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		<title>By: LRA</title>
		<link>http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/06/09/do-animals-have-morality/#comment-46117</link>
		<dc:creator>LRA</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 01:23:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://unreasonablefaith.com/?p=5084#comment-46117</guid>
		<description>LOLZ! I luvs teh ceilin catz.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>LOLZ! I luvs teh ceilin catz.</p>
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		<title>By: Janet Greene</title>
		<link>http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/06/09/do-animals-have-morality/#comment-46116</link>
		<dc:creator>Janet Greene</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 01:17:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://unreasonablefaith.com/?p=5084#comment-46116</guid>
		<description>Personally, I don&#039;t think peeing on the carpet or chewing on shoes is &quot;immoral&quot;.  It&#039;s &quot;incorrect&quot; behaviour (I think someone pointed out that distinction earlier). To me anyway, morality is about ethics - empathy, kindness, that kind of thing.  I think morality has to have a &quot;natural&quot; quality to it - chewing on a shoe is not intrinsically wrong, but hurting someone is.  My opinion anyway.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Personally, I don&#8217;t think peeing on the carpet or chewing on shoes is &#8220;immoral&#8221;.  It&#8217;s &#8220;incorrect&#8221; behaviour (I think someone pointed out that distinction earlier). To me anyway, morality is about ethics &#8211; empathy, kindness, that kind of thing.  I think morality has to have a &#8220;natural&#8221; quality to it &#8211; chewing on a shoe is not intrinsically wrong, but hurting someone is.  My opinion anyway.</p>
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		<title>By: Janet Greene</title>
		<link>http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/06/09/do-animals-have-morality/#comment-46115</link>
		<dc:creator>Janet Greene</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 01:13:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://unreasonablefaith.com/?p=5084#comment-46115</guid>
		<description>At the risk of getting carried away with this theme, I have to post one more video - this is a crow who took care of an abandoned kitten, even put food in her mouth!  I have never seen a cat and a bird bond like this - incredible story. And I don&#039;t think there is a better example of altruism.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAGzY9rnaA&amp;feature=related</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At the risk of getting carried away with this theme, I have to post one more video &#8211; this is a crow who took care of an abandoned kitten, even put food in her mouth!  I have never seen a cat and a bird bond like this &#8211; incredible story. And I don&#8217;t think there is a better example of altruism.  <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAGzY9rnaA&amp;feature=related" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAGzY9rnaA&amp;feature=related</a></p>
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		<title>By: Janet Greene</title>
		<link>http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/06/09/do-animals-have-morality/#comment-46114</link>
		<dc:creator>Janet Greene</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 00:57:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://unreasonablefaith.com/?p=5084#comment-46114</guid>
		<description>OMG thats ihncrehdabel wbste!  I cante beeleev pepl ackshlly wnt two oll tht wurke! Srsly! Pkcher uf Ceiling Cat iz nau ahn mah dsktahp!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OMG thats ihncrehdabel wbste!  I cante beeleev pepl ackshlly wnt two oll tht wurke! Srsly! Pkcher uf Ceiling Cat iz nau ahn mah dsktahp!</p>
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		<title>By: No Guy in the Sky</title>
		<link>http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/06/09/do-animals-have-morality/#comment-46111</link>
		<dc:creator>No Guy in the Sky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 23:36:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://unreasonablefaith.com/?p=5084#comment-46111</guid>
		<description>Thats a great story 2. Thanks</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thats a great story 2. Thanks</p>
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