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	<title>Comments on: Jews With Horns</title>
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	<link>http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/06/30/the-depths-of-ignorance/</link>
	<description>Reasonable Thoughts on Religion, Science, Skepticism, and Atheism</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 21 Nov 2009 02:47:03 -0500</lastBuildDate>
	
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		<title>By: Dan L.</title>
		<link>http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/06/30/the-depths-of-ignorance/#comment-53045</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan L.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 01:00:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://unreasonablefaith.com/?p=5435#comment-53045</guid>
		<description>Get coral implants.  Your bone grows around it and it &lt;em&gt;becomes&lt;/em&gt; horns growing naturally out of your head.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Get coral implants.  Your bone grows around it and it <em>becomes</em> horns growing naturally out of your head.</p>
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		<title>By: nomad</title>
		<link>http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/06/30/the-depths-of-ignorance/#comment-52103</link>
		<dc:creator>nomad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 19:32:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://unreasonablefaith.com/?p=5435#comment-52103</guid>
		<description>&quot;Michelangelo uses the other meaning of the Hebrew word karan - grew horns (&#039;cornuto&#039; in Italian), and placed the rays of light on Moses&#039; head as if they were two small horns. He may have based his action on Jerom&#039;s translation that actually used the Latin term &#039;cornutam&#039; as a translation of the Hebrew word karan.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Michelangelo uses the other meaning of the Hebrew word karan &#8211; grew horns (&#8217;cornuto&#8217; in Italian), and placed the rays of light on Moses&#8217; head as if they were two small horns. He may have based his action on Jerom&#8217;s translation that actually used the Latin term &#8216;cornutam&#8217; as a translation of the Hebrew word karan.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Kodie</title>
		<link>http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/06/30/the-depths-of-ignorance/#comment-52087</link>
		<dc:creator>Kodie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 17:37:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://unreasonablefaith.com/?p=5435#comment-52087</guid>
		<description>I forgot to include a link to a site that I found that explains a lot of the rules:

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/110306/jewish/Tallit-and-Tzitzit.htm

The silky looking fringe as opposed to what looks more &quot;casual&quot; on the boys* playing basketball - I have not seen usually a whole shawl or tallitt worn over the garment, but noticed the fringe from the waist or below a jacket is silkier maybe up close. I would actually liken it to a graduation tassel or something from fine drapery, the same kind of appearance or texture. 

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/530127/jewish/Techelet-Blue-Thread.htm
This explains the appearance some may have with a blue tassel or techelet. The dye comes from a rare fish that was unavailable to Jews after they were exiled, so some may use other dyes while some do without. 

I think that site is rather interesting with respect to the tradition. As someone who isn&#039;t or wasn&#039;t Jewish and knows few Jews, if any who are orthodox - you know, the internet is great for finding out stuff you wonder about but don&#039;t have anybody to ask when you are curious. I had been curious about this garment but didn&#039;t have correct search terms so I was limited in what I could find - I guess it depends on how curious you are to find pages where that information is diagrammed so thoroughly. 
Strangely, when I look up Jewish clothing on google now, it comes up with some information. Last time I looked, I happened across a number of vague things and a parody of J. Crew for Jews that sold hats and novelty t-shirts and buttons. 

*These boys look to be about borderline Bar Mitzvah age, somewhere from 11-14 or 15, so some may be men where Judaism is concerned. I don&#039;t actually see distinct tassels that they wear, it looks more like a flat piece or two pieces. Since I ride by on the bus, I don&#039;t have a chance to examine whether there is still tassel, or what I would call tassels on the ends.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I forgot to include a link to a site that I found that explains a lot of the rules:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/110306/jewish/Tallit-and-Tzitzit.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/110306/jewish/Tallit-and-Tzitzit.htm</a></p>
<p>The silky looking fringe as opposed to what looks more &#8220;casual&#8221; on the boys* playing basketball &#8211; I have not seen usually a whole shawl or tallitt worn over the garment, but noticed the fringe from the waist or below a jacket is silkier maybe up close. I would actually liken it to a graduation tassel or something from fine drapery, the same kind of appearance or texture. </p>
<p><a href="http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/530127/jewish/Techelet-Blue-Thread.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/530127/jewish/Techelet-Blue-Thread.htm</a><br />
This explains the appearance some may have with a blue tassel or techelet. The dye comes from a rare fish that was unavailable to Jews after they were exiled, so some may use other dyes while some do without. </p>
<p>I think that site is rather interesting with respect to the tradition. As someone who isn&#8217;t or wasn&#8217;t Jewish and knows few Jews, if any who are orthodox &#8211; you know, the internet is great for finding out stuff you wonder about but don&#8217;t have anybody to ask when you are curious. I had been curious about this garment but didn&#8217;t have correct search terms so I was limited in what I could find &#8211; I guess it depends on how curious you are to find pages where that information is diagrammed so thoroughly.<br />
Strangely, when I look up Jewish clothing on google now, it comes up with some information. Last time I looked, I happened across a number of vague things and a parody of J. Crew for Jews that sold hats and novelty t-shirts and buttons. </p>
<p>*These boys look to be about borderline Bar Mitzvah age, somewhere from 11-14 or 15, so some may be men where Judaism is concerned. I don&#8217;t actually see distinct tassels that they wear, it looks more like a flat piece or two pieces. Since I ride by on the bus, I don&#8217;t have a chance to examine whether there is still tassel, or what I would call tassels on the ends.</p>
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		<title>By: nomad</title>
		<link>http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/06/30/the-depths-of-ignorance/#comment-52077</link>
		<dc:creator>nomad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 16:31:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://unreasonablefaith.com/?p=5435#comment-52077</guid>
		<description>Speaking of statues. Michelangelo&#039;s &quot;Moses&quot; has horns.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Speaking of statues. Michelangelo&#8217;s &#8220;Moses&#8221; has horns.</p>
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		<title>By: DCtouristsANDlocals</title>
		<link>http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/06/30/the-depths-of-ignorance/#comment-52076</link>
		<dc:creator>DCtouristsANDlocals</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 16:23:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://unreasonablefaith.com/?p=5435#comment-52076</guid>
		<description>I was in Peru recently, and found out about a similar mistranslation that led to an unfortunate statue in the Plaza San Martin (Lima).  Apparently the word for &quot;flames&quot; in Ketchua is similar to the word &quot;llama,&quot; so the statue of a female god has a llama on her head.  It&#039;s cute!  Here is a pic:  http://www.trekearth.com/gallery/South_America/Peru/South/Lima/Lima_Centro/photo836900.htm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was in Peru recently, and found out about a similar mistranslation that led to an unfortunate statue in the Plaza San Martin (Lima).  Apparently the word for &#8220;flames&#8221; in Ketchua is similar to the word &#8220;llama,&#8221; so the statue of a female god has a llama on her head.  It&#8217;s cute!  Here is a pic:  <a href="http://www.trekearth.com/gallery/South_America/Peru/South/Lima/Lima_Centro/photo836900.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.trekearth.com/gallery/South_America/Peru/South/Lima/Lima_Centro/photo836900.htm</a></p>
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		<title>By: claidheamh mor</title>
		<link>http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/06/30/the-depths-of-ignorance/#comment-51970</link>
		<dc:creator>claidheamh mor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 02:00:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://unreasonablefaith.com/?p=5435#comment-51970</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt; Ty: You don’t think that this degree of ignorance in our modern information age requires a degree of stupidity? &lt;/blockquote&gt;

(jumping up and down and waving) I do!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p> Ty: You don’t think that this degree of ignorance in our modern information age requires a degree of stupidity? </p></blockquote>
<p>(jumping up and down and waving) I do!</p>
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		<title>By: claidheamh mor</title>
		<link>http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/06/30/the-depths-of-ignorance/#comment-51855</link>
		<dc:creator>claidheamh mor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Jul 2009 19:14:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://unreasonablefaith.com/?p=5435#comment-51855</guid>
		<description>@brgulker There is a very obvious difference, and from what we know here, the people in the story were ignorant, not stupid.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

They are not completely separate or different. Don&#039;t be so damn quick to blur and fuzz the difference between unawareness of a fact, vs. people who muleheadedly stay extremely unaware of many facts. Don&#039;t be so damn quick to excuse muleheaded idiocy. So what if &quot;Ignorance can be cured; stupidity is permanent&quot;. Stupid people &lt;i&gt;stay&lt;/i&gt; ignorant. Permanently. They won&#039;t ever &lt;i&gt;be&lt;/i&gt; cured.  Stupid people don&#039;t educate themselves or seek facts. Stupid people defend what they believe instead of examining the beliefs in question. Stupid people are the ones easily led, easily whipped by emotion into accepting beliefs including entire religions, stupid people are the ones who unquestioningly swallow and spread the stereotypes like this one. 

Stupid people excuse their ignorance or laziness by spouting anti-intellectual bias (&quot;eggheads&quot;, &quot;snobs&quot;), excuses (&quot;you don&#039;t have to learn to spell that well, as long as you communicate&quot; - which they don&#039;t do very well), name-calling (&quot;I don&#039;t want to be a professional student&quot;), confirmation bias (&quot;I know of no atheists in NASA&quot;), dismissing the pursuit of competence (&quot;perfectionists&quot;, &quot;kiss-up&quot;, &quot;anorexic&quot;, &quot;fanatic&quot;, &quot;you don&#039;t have to be fast here&quot; - even if you *want* to work on your speed, &quot;everybody&#039;s special&quot;, &quot;all the children are above average&quot; [couldn&#039;t resist that one] &quot;I should get respect&quot; but *not* have to earn it).

Continued willful ignorance &lt;i&gt;*is&lt;/i&gt; stupidity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@brgulker There is a very obvious difference, and from what we know here, the people in the story were ignorant, not stupid.</p>
<p>They are not completely separate or different. Don&#8217;t be so damn quick to blur and fuzz the difference between unawareness of a fact, vs. people who muleheadedly stay extremely unaware of many facts. Don&#8217;t be so damn quick to excuse muleheaded idiocy. So what if &#8220;Ignorance can be cured; stupidity is permanent&#8221;. Stupid people <i>stay</i> ignorant. Permanently. They won&#8217;t ever <i>be</i> cured.  Stupid people don&#8217;t educate themselves or seek facts. Stupid people defend what they believe instead of examining the beliefs in question. Stupid people are the ones easily led, easily whipped by emotion into accepting beliefs including entire religions, stupid people are the ones who unquestioningly swallow and spread the stereotypes like this one. </p>
<p>Stupid people excuse their ignorance or laziness by spouting anti-intellectual bias (&#8221;eggheads&#8221;, &#8220;snobs&#8221;), excuses (&#8221;you don&#8217;t have to learn to spell that well, as long as you communicate&#8221; &#8211; which they don&#8217;t do very well), name-calling (&#8221;I don&#8217;t want to be a professional student&#8221;), confirmation bias (&#8221;I know of no atheists in NASA&#8221;), dismissing the pursuit of competence (&#8221;perfectionists&#8221;, &#8220;kiss-up&#8221;, &#8220;anorexic&#8221;, &#8220;fanatic&#8221;, &#8220;you don&#8217;t have to be fast here&#8221; &#8211; even if you *want* to work on your speed, &#8220;everybody&#8217;s special&#8221;, &#8220;all the children are above average&#8221; [couldn't resist that one] &#8220;I should get respect&#8221; but *not* have to earn it).</p>
<p>Continued willful ignorance <i>*is</i> stupidity.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan</title>
		<link>http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/06/30/the-depths-of-ignorance/#comment-51498</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Jul 2009 03:26:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://unreasonablefaith.com/?p=5435#comment-51498</guid>
		<description>Tzitzit are the fringes at the end of the cloth.  The prayer shawl itself is called a talit.  As for a talit made of silky material, I tend to associate that with the public-use shawls they have in the front of a synagogue or the smaller ones that younger kids more often have.  The larger, nicer ones adults tend to own are just some normal muslin-like material.

As far as I know, there&#039;s no practical difference between the different styles, as far as what you&#039;re supposed to wear when.  The only rules I can remember is that there have to be fringes on the four corners and there should be some coloration of &quot;t&#039;chelet&quot;.  It&#039;s not exactly known what color that might be in ancient Hebrew, but it&#039;s thought to be some shade of blue.  The color one probably isn&#039;t a strict requirement, though, since plenty don&#039;t have any kind of coloring on them.

As for the tuck vs. non-tuck to identify teams, that&#039;s possible.  I don&#039;t think there&#039;s a lot of significance to that either way as far as the religious rules are concerned.  I do remember that there were some kids who would untuck their tzitzit and part of the undershirt cloth itself to be cooler (that they were more showy about their piety maybe?).  They&#039;d also wear their kippah a little off center and walk with a kind of arrogant strut.

I was only ever peripherally in contact with the orthodox guys growing up, though, so I may be misremembering some of the more technical rule stuff.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tzitzit are the fringes at the end of the cloth.  The prayer shawl itself is called a talit.  As for a talit made of silky material, I tend to associate that with the public-use shawls they have in the front of a synagogue or the smaller ones that younger kids more often have.  The larger, nicer ones adults tend to own are just some normal muslin-like material.</p>
<p>As far as I know, there&#8217;s no practical difference between the different styles, as far as what you&#8217;re supposed to wear when.  The only rules I can remember is that there have to be fringes on the four corners and there should be some coloration of &#8220;t&#8217;chelet&#8221;.  It&#8217;s not exactly known what color that might be in ancient Hebrew, but it&#8217;s thought to be some shade of blue.  The color one probably isn&#8217;t a strict requirement, though, since plenty don&#8217;t have any kind of coloring on them.</p>
<p>As for the tuck vs. non-tuck to identify teams, that&#8217;s possible.  I don&#8217;t think there&#8217;s a lot of significance to that either way as far as the religious rules are concerned.  I do remember that there were some kids who would untuck their tzitzit and part of the undershirt cloth itself to be cooler (that they were more showy about their piety maybe?).  They&#8217;d also wear their kippah a little off center and walk with a kind of arrogant strut.</p>
<p>I was only ever peripherally in contact with the orthodox guys growing up, though, so I may be misremembering some of the more technical rule stuff.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan</title>
		<link>http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/06/30/the-depths-of-ignorance/#comment-51495</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Jul 2009 03:08:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://unreasonablefaith.com/?p=5435#comment-51495</guid>
		<description>Pretty sure he wasn&#039;t homeschooled, but not sure.  He was actually a really good guy, smart too.  Just had been ignorant of the world growing up wherever he did.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pretty sure he wasn&#8217;t homeschooled, but not sure.  He was actually a really good guy, smart too.  Just had been ignorant of the world growing up wherever he did.</p>
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		<title>By: Nikita</title>
		<link>http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/06/30/the-depths-of-ignorance/#comment-51374</link>
		<dc:creator>Nikita</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 19:27:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://unreasonablefaith.com/?p=5435#comment-51374</guid>
		<description>If all Jews have horns then Jesus had horns too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If all Jews have horns then Jesus had horns too.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark D</title>
		<link>http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/06/30/the-depths-of-ignorance/#comment-51170</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark D</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 02:52:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://unreasonablefaith.com/?p=5435#comment-51170</guid>
		<description>I once had a Jewish friend who asked me many years ago (during my fundie childhood), how much money did my parents sent to Jimmy &amp; Tammy Faye Bakker.  My parents only gave money to their church. 
Even his father, a college professor believed the majority of  born again christians were sending money to tv envangelists.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I once had a Jewish friend who asked me many years ago (during my fundie childhood), how much money did my parents sent to Jimmy &amp; Tammy Faye Bakker.  My parents only gave money to their church.<br />
Even his father, a college professor believed the majority of  born again christians were sending money to tv envangelists.</p>
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		<title>By: LRA</title>
		<link>http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/06/30/the-depths-of-ignorance/#comment-51080</link>
		<dc:creator>LRA</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 19:48:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://unreasonablefaith.com/?p=5435#comment-51080</guid>
		<description>I think the horns will fall off... kinda like the way the scales fell from Paul&#039;s eyes...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the horns will fall off&#8230; kinda like the way the scales fell from Paul&#8217;s eyes&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: MahouSniper</title>
		<link>http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/06/30/the-depths-of-ignorance/#comment-51077</link>
		<dc:creator>MahouSniper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 19:18:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://unreasonablefaith.com/?p=5435#comment-51077</guid>
		<description>T&#039;was a joke.  Relax.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>T&#8217;was a joke.  Relax.</p>
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		<title>By: Kodie</title>
		<link>http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/06/30/the-depths-of-ignorance/#comment-51063</link>
		<dc:creator>Kodie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 17:26:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://unreasonablefaith.com/?p=5435#comment-51063</guid>
		<description>I didn&#039;t know what those were. I either hadn&#039;t seen them or noticed them until a few months ago - the bus I take some evenings goes by some teenage Jewish boys playing basketball and some of them have those and some I guess keep them tucked in (some are tucked or untucked their plain white shirts also). I don&#039;t know if this is outside a school or temple in that area, but all the boys are dressed alike in what I would consider &quot;school clothes&quot; (white shirt, black pants, and shoes that aren&#039;t sneakers), not play clothes that would be more likely for sports, and wear yarmulkes, or I guess they are kippahs (another word that is new to me). The fringe they have looks like they are plain muslin fabric (maybe nicer than muslin up close) in what look to be more ribbon-like and not fringe, though. Some time later, I noticed it on the formal dress of Jewish men on their way to temple, this time more silky looking and fringe. I don&#039;t know if you have practical everyday tzitzit and formal temple tzitzit, or why they would look different. They had it the whole time, but I never noticed this article of dress until I had seen the boys playing basketball. 

I don&#039;t know what search terms I tried, but I couldn&#039;t find out what that was about. If this sounds too ignorant, my first thought since some boys had them and some didn&#039;t, since they were dressed alike that it was maybe to distinguish teams. Now that I think about it, they probably did have one team tuck and the other one untuck their tzitzit. Is that a possibility?

Thanks for solving the mystery!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I didn&#8217;t know what those were. I either hadn&#8217;t seen them or noticed them until a few months ago &#8211; the bus I take some evenings goes by some teenage Jewish boys playing basketball and some of them have those and some I guess keep them tucked in (some are tucked or untucked their plain white shirts also). I don&#8217;t know if this is outside a school or temple in that area, but all the boys are dressed alike in what I would consider &#8220;school clothes&#8221; (white shirt, black pants, and shoes that aren&#8217;t sneakers), not play clothes that would be more likely for sports, and wear yarmulkes, or I guess they are kippahs (another word that is new to me). The fringe they have looks like they are plain muslin fabric (maybe nicer than muslin up close) in what look to be more ribbon-like and not fringe, though. Some time later, I noticed it on the formal dress of Jewish men on their way to temple, this time more silky looking and fringe. I don&#8217;t know if you have practical everyday tzitzit and formal temple tzitzit, or why they would look different. They had it the whole time, but I never noticed this article of dress until I had seen the boys playing basketball. </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know what search terms I tried, but I couldn&#8217;t find out what that was about. If this sounds too ignorant, my first thought since some boys had them and some didn&#8217;t, since they were dressed alike that it was maybe to distinguish teams. Now that I think about it, they probably did have one team tuck and the other one untuck their tzitzit. Is that a possibility?</p>
<p>Thanks for solving the mystery!</p>
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		<title>By: Yoav</title>
		<link>http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/06/30/the-depths-of-ignorance/#comment-51046</link>
		<dc:creator>Yoav</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 13:58:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://unreasonablefaith.com/?p=5435#comment-51046</guid>
		<description>I wander, if I decide to take Jesus into my hart and accept him as my personal BLAH BLAH BLAH. Will the horns fall of or will I still need the services of Dr Moishe.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wander, if I decide to take Jesus into my hart and accept him as my personal BLAH BLAH BLAH. Will the horns fall of or will I still need the services of Dr Moishe.</p>
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