This video mongers fear by insisting that if Christians don’t start having more babies and converting Muslims, Islam is going to take over the world:
Historically, both Christianity and Islam have been pretty cruel and evil when they control nations. I’d rather have neither.
4,000 subscribers. 10,000 daily views.
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84 Comments
You are right, you have neither; so what is you life like? It is not different than any other human being, and that is because of God’s mercy on you. He does not show predjudice against unbelievers, but it is their own choice that they do not receive the many blessings that would come with a personal relationshipe with Him on His Own terms:
The above statement by ArchangelChuck speaks of itself that an Atheist cannot be a Christian, but scripture speaks more profoundly:
[ Lots of mind-numbing scripture redacted by Dan — sorry Glenda, I don't mind small quotes from books, but that was too long, especially for a first comment. Most of us here know the Bible quite well and don't need it thrown at us. ]
Do you really feel that to be convincing? Let me ask you a hypothetical question… if someone were to quote from the holy book of a religion you do not follow how much effect would it have on you? Would you care at all about the natterings in someone elses book? Wouldn’t you feel it was.. laughable?
What you are doing here is called hypocrisy. You follow one religion, and take words from that religion’s holy book as ‘gospel’… and expect people from other religions, or none, to also take those words as gospel. In order for that to not be hypocrisy, you must take all of the holy words from every other religion, past and present, as gospel. If you fail to do so then you are a hypocrite.
Try to rise above your hypocrisy and make some sort of sense.
PS. The bible says Pi = 3 and rabbits have cuds.
> Disparaging Christianity because of those who do not obey Christ, is like disparaging the sun when it doesn’t shine.
Anyone from any religion can say so about his beliefs. Prove I’m wrong if I am.
Disparaging Christianity because of those who do not obey Christ, is like disparaging the sun when it doesn’t shine. Those Christians, the Crusaders, did not have the Bible to read for themselves; it was written in Latin and kept from the people by the Catholic church. Therefore, whatever they believed about Christ was only what they were taught by ungodly people, who used their ignorance for their own unholy gain; Jesus said, “Not all who call me Lord, Lord will enter the Kingdom of heaven…” Many use His Name in vain for their own glory…that is all they will have in this world.
So are you saying that the leaders of the holy orders of god’s warriors did not have a single person in a leadership position who was capable of reading latin and possessed a copy of the bible?
Go read a few history books.
Um, Aor, don’t'cha know that the Bible IS a history book? ;-)
Disparaging Christianity because of those who do not obey Christ, is like disparaging the sun when it doesn’t shine
But the sun always shines (well, it will burn out eventually). Christians, historically, have done anything but shine. We have done some amazingly awful things in the name of our God. And it’s not nearly as simple as claiming, “The RCC hid the bible from them.” In fact, the Bible was repeatedly used to motivate those types of horrific acts (see Joshua and Judges, for example). Aor is right; history is your friend, here.
HAAAhhhhhahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
Haaahahahahahahahaha!
There is more than enough subject matter disparaging christianity because of christians!
And to those who say (all together now) “B-b-b-b-but they’re not a rreeeeaallll christian!”,
I say they are unfortunately all to real, and you get to stay firmly in muleheaded denial of the fact that whoever you were talking about is christian and is acting on christian beliefs.
Bilking the crowds, murdering people (usually doctors), trying to force others (usually women) to live according to their beliefs, treating children harshly, using hypocrisy to explain their affairs after condemning others for the same thing, eight years of voting in a president who says he’s a christian and lies and goes to war on the wrong country and blames it on faulty intelligence, ranting on this blog……
You name it, they are christian, following christian beliefs, acting upon their christian beliefs.
Your stubborn blindness and muleheaded denial don’t change a jot or tittle (hahaha! *snerk*) of that.
@Glenda: “Disparaging Christianity because of those who do not obey Christ, is like disparaging the sun when it doesn’t shine.” Can you name a name – who would you see as a real Christian who follows real Christianity? Someone who speaks for God, lets Jesus shine through him or her, and really lives the life.
I’m not trying to knock you, but I’d really like to know who you see as an OK Christian.
I asked the same question of John C and didn’t get an answer (John, if you’re reading this, it was a while ago – I forget the post – and I was catching up on my posts, so maybe you didn’t go back that far. And to be honest, I haven’t been back lately to see if you responded :-)).
Come on guys, 6.7 Billion isn’t nearly enough people. Let’s get going. Stop slacking Europe.
They aren’t so good with the maths
1.6 is nearly a full point below 2.11 @5:35
I for one welcome our new Muslim overlords! (sorry couldn’t resist)
I wrote about this video a while ago. One huge problem with this xenophobic, quasi-racist fearmongering is that Islam is not a race. They say “X number of Muslims are born every year,” well… no. X number of people of Arab/Middle Eastern descent are born every year… to Muslim parents.
There is a very real possibility that the children will defect from their parents religion after having endured our public school systems, and those of Europe–assuming we can give them a decently secular education about evolution and the history of religion.
Speaking of that, Dan Dennett has some good ideas about religious education.
There is a very real possibility that the children will defect from their parents religion after having endured our public school systems, and those of Europe–assuming we can give them a decently secular education about evolution and the history of religion.
Why is a ’secular education’ the only option?
And I have a hard time figuring out how isn’t coercive and why that’s okay.
State institutions should be 100% secular.
I agree and heartily second that!
Church must fuck off of the back of state!
I wasn’t clear. Why should secular education be used to encourage this:
“the children will defect from their parents religion”
Why is that okay?
I’m not saying public schools shouldn’t be secular; I’m questioning whether or not they should be used to encourage de-conversion.
Ugh, not clear again. I’m in a hurry.
If de-conversion is the net result of a secular education, then that is what it is.
What bothers me is the argument that education should be used to actively de-convert people, which is what I am understanding Elliot to mean.
I agree with you, rodney, about public schools. I don’t think they should be a tool to encourage religion, but I also don’t think they should be a tool to dissuade one from religion, either.
A. He didn’t say that at all.
B. Should schools teach students that humans can’t destroy their neighbor’s crops with their thoughts?
Sorry, I didn’t mean to say that it should be a goal of our educational system, just that deconversion/moderation is a likely result.
For that reason, the Christian alarmists who made this video shouldn’t really worry about the US becoming an Islamic caliphate.
You may be over estimating the power of formal education. They likely would not deconvert and would probably become merely better educated Muslims. Note that the education of Christians in the US has caused relatively few deconversions. Religious belief, it must be remembered can be compartmentalized, so that otherwise rational people can harbor it. It would probably result in a generation of moderate Muslims who see the Koran as metaphor. Mythological truth.
I’m not saying they’d all deconvert, I’m saying education is the crucial means by which many people deconvert or become more moderate. Quick poll of people here? I’d venture to say most were educated or self-educated out of religion. There is definitely a positive correlation between atheism/agnosticism and education.
If nothing else, it would at least dilute extremist Islam, which should be a comfort to the people responsible for this video.
Let me make my thesis clear: our educational system is a moderating force for religious extremism, and an important means of cultural assimilation, by which Muslims will come to integrate into our society. Therefore, it’s one of the main reasons the people who made this video should chill out a bit.
Let me make my thesis clear: our educational system is a moderating force for religious extremism, and an important means of cultural assimilation, by which Muslims will come to integrate into our society. Therefore, it’s one of the main reasons the people who made this video should chill out a bit.
I definitely misunderstood you, Elliot. I actually agree with you completely. Very nicely said.
[anedocte]
Actually, I grew up with exactly such a family: Muslims from Syria, two girls and two boys plus parents. I was raised with the girls; we studied in the same school and we were friends (I say ‘were’ because I moved out of state and we lost contact). The main difference between us is some dressing codes (they wear the hijab) and some dietary limitations. Otherwise we went to the same movies, did the same things, went to the same parties, etc. I went to college, so did one of the girls (the other isn’t keen on education – never was).
There *was* however, a bad point: when the father was too broke to pay for education for all four kids, he priorized the boys’ education – the girls went to public school (which, over here, is bad). Nonetheless, they managed to go along just peachy.
Cultural immersion is immersive.
[/anedocte]
Ideally they should be completely separate from religion. None allowed, not relevant, you’re here to learn.
As always, and as observed by authors already, kids can sneak a request through to their Almighty for help on that quiz.
But then, that’s where
[for children, who the hell else's religion is it?]
would be a very good, healthy thing.
“the children will defect from their parents religion”
Wow, I’m cool with that. Incremental progress toward a healthier humanity.
Dang. Beaten to the punch.
This is an excellent point. Children of Islamists growing up in Europe or the US are far less likely than their parents to be massively influenced by religion. The vid also misses the point that once established in their new countries, Muslim birth rates are likely to fall to around the national average. Poverty determines birth rates, not (on the whole) religion.
This is crazy. 8 children? No, I checked and in France, the community with the biggest fertility rate are Africans (excluding Maghreb) with 4 children. And for the Moroccans, Algerians, Tunisian and Turkish immigrants are around 2.3. These numbers are provided by INSEE in 99.
http://www.insee.fr/fr/ffc/docs_ffc/ip898.pdf
And also, the fertility in France raised to 2. Which is funny, because for example Algeria, Tunisia, and Turkey have a lower fertility rates than France.
Which is precisely why atheists need to have babies.
AMEN!!!
We would have to clone ourselves if we are to have any fighting chance.
Yes, Daniel, the video is ridiculous. That ridiculousness aside, wouldn’t we all or almost all agree that there is some legitimate fear to be felt around this issue?
Do other religions make you afraid? Why is that?
Religions that preach “Killing the infidels is the will of God” are a bit frightening to me, yes. I would suspect they are at least a bit disconcerting to you as well, right? Since we’re both infidels, by definition, and infidels are supposed to be killed, I think at least a bit of concern is warranted, don’t you?
Ditto. Islam is a cult of death. The Koran and Hadith encourage violence toward infidels unambiguously, repeatedly, throughout. I think all religions are dangerous superstition, but the danger from Islam is most imminent. There are people in the world who are not only willing but eager to detonate a nuclear weapon in a Western city. Which is terrifying.
“Muslim extremists” are extreme in their actions, not their beliefs. “Martyrs” are the ones adhering most closely to Islam.
If Osama bin Laden were a head of state, the 9/11 attacks would have been an act of war instead of an act of terrorism. Would the US have subsequently declared war on war? We tolerate intolerance while Islamic leaders have declared war on the West, over and over. The solution might be more benign than, say, a campaign of destruction, but if we can’t even talk about it, we’re going to lose.
I think that, within this century, humanity will either unite or destroy itself.
(Of course, one irony is that Christians know that the Koran can’t be the perfect word of the creator of the universe; that’s ridiculous, right? But they’d feel the same way about the Bible if they were born and raised in Iran. Sigh.)
Mm, but then, so are lots of other religions.
I’m not sure the issue is with Islam; methinks the issue is with politics and economics. Islam is just a convenient tool to unite people – not unlike Christianism was in the past, with the Crusades. The main difference is that now we have better weapons.
No, Islam is much more explicitly violent than Christianity.
I recommend reading The End of Faith by Sam Harris. It’s a very good anti-supernaturalism book, and also has a chapter specifically about Islam (including five pages of quotes from the Koran encouraging violence towards infidels). Most informative.
I find any religion that claims to believe in life after death a little frightening. Anyone who believes that can find excuses to kill because the cost of killing is.. not true death, but a ‘reward’ in an afterlife. Many of the quotes people find violent in the koran are no more offensive than similar quotes in the bible. Stoning people to death for noticing that their neighbors wife has nice boobs is quite frightening, don’t you think? My question goes to that issue.. why is it only OTHER religions that frighten you and not the writings of your own?
I find any religion that claims to believe in life after death a little frightening. Anyone who believes that can find excuses to kill because the cost of killing is.. not true death, but a ‘reward’ in an afterlife.
The latter simply does not follow from the former. Believing in an afterlife is simply that. No more, no less. Orthodox Christian teaching is that faith in Christ ensures salvation. Extreme Muslim fundamentalism teaches that there is a reward in heaven waiting for you if you kill infidels and especially if you die a martyr’s death while killing infidels.
The difference between the two is obvious. In other words, you have absolutely nothing to fear from me, because the teacher I follow teaches me to love my enemies, not murder them. Does that make sense?
My question goes to that issue.. why is it only OTHER religions that frighten you and not the writings of your own?
“My religion,” or perhaps better, my understanding of Jesus’ teachings tells me to love my neighbors, to love those who persecute me, to turn my other cheek, to put others before myself. With that explicitly stated as my understanding of Jesus’ teaching and thus my religion, what do you have to be afraid of in me?
That said, are there Christians that we should be afraid of? Or perhaps a better word is concerned. Yes, absolutely. There are Christians who base their ideas for foreign policy on ancient apocalyptic literature that says God will slaughter all the enemies of Israel; therefore, let’s stay on Israel’s side (and perhaps even slaughter their enemies ourselves). Is that something to be concerned about? Yes. Do I believe any of that? No. So again, do you have anything to be ‘afraid’ of in me?
Furthermore, are there Muslims who have a very similar view to the Christians I just described above? Obviously, yes. And I’m with rodney here; I think it’s well-worth being concerned about them. I think there are peaceful Muslim sects, at least here in the West, but even the traditionally moderate Muslim countries like Egypt (hat tip to rodney for pointing this out to me in another thread) that are becoming increasingly friendly to violence.
My question goes to that issue.. why is it only OTHER religions that frighten you and not the writings of your own?
Obviously, you’re trying to trap me and trying to demonstrate to me that my religion is fundamentally the same as the Muslim extremist. I will concede to you that there are Christians who very closely resemble Muslim extremists; we should be concerned about them and combat their ideologies.
But, I am not one of them, and I’ve explained why. “My religion” doesn’t contain anything to be afraid of. You may disagree fundamentally and animately with it, and I welcome that, but you don’t need to fear it.
Belief in an afterlife reduces the natural disincentive for suicidal behavior.
How often do you hear about a mother killing her children and then herself, so that hey kids wind up in ‘heaven’ rather than alive without their mother? These are Christian women. These stories come up regularly in the media. Because people believe in something after death, the consequences of death are NO LONGER DEATH. Life after death, beyond a shadow of a doubt, means that DEATH IS NOT DEATH because after it you get life. Sure, they were taught to love their enemies.. but the simple fact that they see a reward after death makes them dangerous. You may not believe it, but the consequences of that kind of thinking are inescapable. Every year babies die from it. Every time some deluded fool kills his or her child or partner or parent or whoever, the belief in life after death is a contributing factor in those killings.
And baby killers scare me.
Death becomes less than complete death, making it less to be feared. Lower the consequences for killing and you are making murders more acceptable. There is no other conclusion that a rational person can reach.
Those who do not believe in such rewards after death have much less incentive to kill. I’m sure you have heard the phrase ‘kill ‘em all and let god sort it out.”
Only a believer in the afterlife could believe something so callous.
Aor, we’re not going to agree on this, to be sure.
I will only say one more thing. It would make for an interesting study to try to determine if your claims are correct.
I don’t doubt that there things do happen as you describe (a mother kills her children, e.g.). We’ve all seen it in the news, right? But, having studied Psychology myself for a few years, I suspect that such a person is suffering from something much more significant, such as postpartum depression. A person who is suffering from a mental illness isn’t thinking rationally, and while something like “my children are better of with God than with me” is certainly very problematic, I would say that such a cognitive process is more attributable to the postpartum depression than Christianity.
I don’t know of any studies that test either of our hypothesis, but it would certainly be interesting to study.
You may not believe it, but the consequences of that kind of thinking are inescapable.
Then why don’t all Christian mothers think that way? Why don’t we all kill ourselves so we can be in heaven? We don’t, because we believe life is a gift to be enjoyed and celebrated, not escaped from.
Those who do not believe in such rewards after death have much less incentive to kill. I’m sure you have heard the phrase ‘kill ‘em all and let god sort it out.”
Actually, I’ve never heard anyone say that. That is absolutely a callous thing to say; we agree there. Where we disagree is that that conclusion is the only rationale outcome from a belief in an afterlife.
Regardless of any other mental issues, the belief in life after death is a contributing factor. It is also a contributing factor in young men going to war. In fact I am sure you agree with this point otherwise you would not have said ‘more attributable’ and instead have said ‘completely attributable.’
As for “kill’em all and let god sort it out”.. you have heard of the phrase, which is exactly my point. That phrase owes its existence to belief in life after death. What I wonder is why you use these straw-men.. I never said that was the only rational outcome of belief in an afterlife.
Lets see you answer this as a yes or no question:
Is the belief in an afterlife is a contributing factor in deaths worldwide, yes or no?
Is the belief in an afterlife is a contributing factor in deaths worldwide, yes or no?
Answering in a yes or no fashion isn’t helpful, in my view, because speaking in such sweeping generalizations without noting the nuances of various situations.
But, yes, belief in an afterlife does contribute. The easy example is Muslims who believe they will get extra perks in heaven if they die a martyr’s death.
But that scenario, in my estimation, is incredibly different from a mother suffering from postpartum depression. In the latter scenario, I personally don’t think that belief in an afterlife can be blamed, and that’s a result of studying psychology. Put simply, mental illness presents itself in the ideologies that are familiar to the person suffering from the illness. That is, a Christian who’s a schizophrenic will have delusions full of religious ideas and symbols. Does that mean that Christianity “contributed” to his/her illness? No, not at all. It’s simply that the person’s illness expresses itself through what the person is familiar with.
So, even though the short answer is, “yes,” I don’t think that answer really gets at the heart of the issue.
Thank you for finally agreeing with my central point. Now would you care to explain how that does not change everything else you have said here? I think it tears the foundation out from under your position, but naturally you will wiggle around some more and hope to find a way out. Sorry, but there isn’t one.
You agree that belief in an afterlife is a contributing factor in deaths worldwide, but you evade by stating that it is incredibly different from a mother killing her children. Explain exactly how it is different. I don’t think it is, and don’t think you can defend that position logically. I will need you to explain how and why, because simply stating it doesn’t convince me in the slightest.
Contributing factor. Not entirely to blame, contributing factor. I have a hard time believing you can’t grasp this concept. I think you are just trying to wiggle out of the inescapable reasoning. A mother suffering from postpartum depression who did not belief in an afterlife may still kill her self, and perhaps even her children, but the chances in my opinion go down greatly. I can sense that you want a way to not agree with this, but you really should take a moment to think it through. If that mother did not believe in a happier place to send her children, the chances of killing those children decrease. I simply cannot see how you could argue against that point in an honest manner. They often leave suicide notes, and mention that they want their kids to go to heaven. See? Conclusive proof of my point. In fact you can search for those news items and maybe even read some of those suicide notes.
You have not got a leg to stand on. Please be honest and just concede the point.
You should not have to do that. You should be able to just admit that belief in the afterlife was a contributing factor in murder/suicides without needing to equivocat and try to ’save face’ for your belief system.
Something tells me you just won’t concede this point, yet again.
Why is that?
Yes! Christianity and christians frighten me. Seriously.
“Answering in a yes or no fashion isn’t helpful, in my view, because speaking in such sweeping generalizations without noting the nuances of various situations.” isn’t helpful.
Ugh, responded in the wrong place. Meant to respond to myself above, because I had left something out accidentally.
“That ridiculousness aside, wouldn’t we all or almost all agree that there is some legitimate fear to be felt around this issue?”
Fear for who? The Muslims? The Fundies that made this piece of crap? The Atheists who have to deal with people following the dictates of their Magic Books?
Fear for non-Muslims, and I agree. Personally, I would happily ally with Christians against Islam. All religions may be dangerous, but they are not equally dangerous. Buddhism, for instance, is pretty low on my list of things to oppose.
If you lived in Sri Lanka, where the Tamil Tigers have been murdering people for decades, you might have a different opinion on that.
It’s all a matter of which violent religious extremists you’ve been exposed to. The tiny extremist fringe of Islam which advocates the use of violence has received a lot of press in the west recently, and so some people mistake it for mainstream Islam, when the Quran contains less racism, violence and hatred than the Bible…
The stated goal of the Tamil Tigers is not world domination.
Yet Wiki says:
I’ve no doubt some of those people might be Buddhists (even though it contradicts one of the Noble Truths, but whatever) but there’s a difference between using religion as a catalyst for violence (such as Islamic terrorirsts and Christian Crusaders did and do) and merely being religious.
Whatever the catalyst, in the end, it’s all a matter of us vs them. Religion is just one of the strongest catalysts out there, these days – failing there, there’ll be others: race, ideology, philosophy, whatever.
“…when the Quran contains less racism, violence and hatred than the Bible”
Can you justify that, please?
I have the “idea” that they can’t be so different, but I don’t know Quran
Sunny Day, I think it’s pretty obvious in my comments (which you haven’t read, again) who I think the dangerous ones are.
An exact quote from me which clears up the issue completely: Religions that preach “Killing the infidels is the will of God” are a bit frightening to me, yes
“An exact quote from me which clears up the issue completely: Religions that preach “Killing the infidels is the will of God” are a bit frightening to me, yes”
Pot, Kettle, Black.
Christian literature has some of the same kind of messages. Christian Crackpots focus on those just as much as Islamic Crackpots focus on theirs.
Judging all of Islam by the those messages is kinda like judging all of Christianity by the messages Fred Phelps
“Kill infidels” is the core of Islam, not the fringe.
(crickets chirping)
Just waiting for you to back up your assertion.
Christian literature has some of the same kind of messages. Christian Crackpots focus on those just as much as Islamic Crackpots focus on theirs.
Judging all of Islam by the those messages is kinda like judging all of Christianity by the messages Fred Phelps
I wasn’t talking about all Islam. My comments were very specific.
If a group of people is paradise-bent on killing you (which Islamic militants ARE), it’s legitimate to feel fear in response.
Oh noes! If these trends continue it will mean that 170% of the world’s population will be Muslim by 2080. Get cracking, white American Christians. We’re depending on you. This is a call to action.
“Religions that preach ‘Killing the infidels is the will of God’ are a bit frightening to me”
Me too…..and if I’m not mistaken, the Holy Bible condones the killling of those who would lead the “Christian” away from belief in “Christ”, even family members(Deut)[paraphrased from memory]
But of course, today’s “Christians” are smarter than that(phew!…thank gawd)—they know that they must “work around” such scripture, as in, rationalize it somehow….. such as, “Oh, that doesn’t apply anymore”..or circumvent it some other way.
Let’s see what this turns up from the guest Christians here. ‘Should be interesting.
Me too…..and if I’m not mistaken, the Holy Bible condones the killling of those who would lead the “Christian” away from belief in “Christ”, even family members(Deut)[paraphrased from memory]
Deuteronomy doesn’t say anything about Christ. That’s anachronistic.
The closest thing you might be able to find in the NT, where Christ is mentioned, is the (paraphrase) “You must hate you brother, father, etc. and come follow me.”
I could go into the Greek word translated as “hate” and explain why it’s a very unfortunate translation and that the Greek word simply denotes preference, but I somehow don’t think it will matter. I did make some comments above to Aor, though, that might interest you if you’re looking for a “guest Christian’s” opinion.
(And why do Christians only get to be ‘guests’? Atheists are inclusive, aren’t you?)
Wow, nice scare tactics. I notice they fail to mention that church attendance in Europe is very low already. What I find remarkable, is that the Muslim communities are demanding more integration with the rest of society and that the governments in the EU are trying to do that. If you think about a generation of Muslims growing up in French or Dutch society, very open secular places, we might be able to see another side of Islam. Is that what Christians fear? Islam away from radical nuts like them? They might begin to like atheism too!:D
Much of it seems to boil down to the same old same old.. fear of the OTHER. Different = evil. Many christians will claim that muslims have to follow those violent teachings and avoid thinking about the violent teachings of their own religion that they don’t seem to have any difficulty ignoring. Hardly anyone goes out and stones offenders to death anymore in the christian world, but they did at one time and the bible has not changed. The difference is not in the writings of the religion, it is in the teachings of their societies. Modern ‘western’ culture has changed the focus away from the more offensive teachings of the bible, and this cultural change will eventually take hold in other nations… but swifter change will come to those who move themselves to a new culture rather than trying to move their culture in a less violent direction. Rather than fear immigrants, they should be welcoming. The alternatives are worse.
“Historically, both Christianity and Islam
have been pretty cruel and evil when
they control nations. I’d rather have neither.”
Hindus, Jews, pre-Colombian pagans, secularists, all have been pretty cruel and evil when they control nations. I would rather avoid ideological monopoly altogether. I don’t deny the point in the OP, but I think it is worth noting that no one else is much better. Power dominated in one group tends to lead to disaster.
Sadly enough for Europ this is hard reality.
Europ has big problems with emmigrating muslims and they do not adapt to our culture they expect us to adapt to theirs.
I expect in 20 years or so some civil war raging in europe between muslims and none-muslims when the muslim population have become too big and is treatning original European culture.
Also the young muslim people do not intermingle with European partners, they either expect you to convert to Islam or they get their brides from Marokko.
Olaf, do you think war is inevitable? Is there any way that it can be fought ideologically? I’m curious, as I’m an American, and I’ve not heard a European put it that way before.
In the fictional land of “Europ”, this may well be the case. However, in the real-life “Europe”, nothing could be further than the truth. Only a tiny proportion on Arabic immigrants don’t integrate completely into society.
Not heard of a European put it that way before — try and listen to Nick Griffin …
My mom sent me this video a month ago… and then went on to “discuss” it for about 30 minutes over the phone with me. Discuss is in quotes because she basically reiterated how horrible this would all be while I sat there silently until she picked up the “I don’t care” and “I don’t agree/disbelieve you” vibes I was sending her way.
Are they large numbers? Yes
As presented, do they seem very scary? Yes (assuming you don’t think all religions should be gone)
Are they accurate? I’d almost put money on no.
I saw our good friend the ellipse in there are several points. In particular in that quote from the German government that makes me feel that the quote is totally pulled out of context. Also statistics like that have to have some context put to them. When were the numbers gathered? For what reason? Who was polled? Were these means or medians? How reliable a sample is this for the entire population? Are there outside cultural factors that could be complicating?
The best example is in France which has earned the title “Daughter of the Church” for their close ties to and history with the RCC. However, almost no french citizens are active in the church community or regular attendees. So I’m guessing that they crossed the number of “Christian births” against the number of “Muslim births” and low and behold the Christians are decreasing. But if you look at other recent polls in countries like the US there are increasing numbers of people reporting that they do not have a religious affiliation. So there’s another growing population (I think the Christians and Muslims would both agree that its the “real” threat).
Overall the video is bullshit and only meant to use big numbers to scare the people who can’t think independently that they’re under attack and elicit an knee-jerk response. As an actual piece of useful information, this video is only really good for identifying the hidden racists or other bigots that you associate with. Or at least the individuals who don’t think critically enough.
Further, I’m a little wary about the “those cultures with a fertility rate of less than 1.3 are impossible to recover” and other such claims.
What about a past lower birthrate stops a population from popping out more babies per capita? They never connect that logically.
Well, here’s the thing.
The only cure for islam is apostasy. The only way to induce apostasy is to convince adherents of more plausibles explanation than their doctrine provides. The only way to do that is through education.
That is to say, we like to pretend that a quality education in the sciences doesn’t induce atheism, but it leads a lot of people to ask the questions that result in it.
As such, I think it’s dead important to improve educational standards in the US and in Europe before any flavor of fundamentalism gets a foothold.
So, isn’t this video a smart terrorist tatic? Looks so to me.
While I’m not a fan of any religion, I get REALLY tired of seeing this video. I’ve done the research on it and not one of the “facts” in it are remotely accurate. Try looking some of this stuff up on google and see how completely erroneous it is (I would but I’m too drunk to care right now).
On a completely related note: I see a lot of hate coming for islam right now. While I am a militant Agnostic/Almost atheist, I do not follow the Dawkins method of “HATE ALL RELIGION FOR MY SPORTSTEAM SAYS TO HATE RELIGION”. I only hate stupidity and blindness, and that manifests in all walks of life, regardless of spiritual orientation. My girlfriend is of Turkish descent, and her family immigrated to the united states directly from istanbul some 30 years ago, and as far as I can tell (I’ve dated her for five years, I doubt I’m missing something here), your average muslim is your average catholic is your average methodist is your average atheist. They try to go to church (or bars) on sundays and do their best to give their money to god (or booze) when they can. If you want to blame terrorism on religion, you can, but it’s way off base. I 100% guarantee you, the terrorism going on now would exist without religion simply because there is a disparity between the tremendously poor and the overly rich. People get pissed when their walk of life gets shit on and that makes them do desperate things. of course, I am not saying that extreme religion doesn’t play a part in that, but I am positive that we had stupid people doing stupid things before we had stupid people doing stupid things because god told them so.
So then hands up who thought any of the facts were true … if that was a commercial I would’ve complained to the ASA.
They’re lying about the numbers.
In the netherlands at this moment 5% of all the people are muslim.
The eldery of those seek to return back to their land of birth within the next 10 years.
A lot of the children that are born of muslim parents are not religious. Some are.
8 muslim people per family… I wonder what the attrition rate is for martyrs?
/rimshot
paradise after death is doubtful. why not create paradise on earth through compassion and non-violence.
Wow, this is retarded. I hope for a world with NO RELIGION! Then maybe well discover how to travel to other universes.
Horrifying racist drivel. As if being Muslim was some kind of dread disease.