By Penn & Teller on Mother Tersea, based on Hitchens’ book The Missionary Position:
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Despite coming across as a pompous ass, Hitchens is gold when it comes to exposing the facts behind religion and its perpetrators.
I have uploaded “Hell’s Angel – Mother Teresa” to my ADrive account… You can download it here: http://tinyurl.com/m7mdod
It is his BBC Broadcast and is excellent and much, much more detailed than the Bullshit episode. It is in Flash Video format (.flv) in three parts. If you don’t have a program that will play flash videos, download “FLVPlayer4Free” at http://www.FLVPlayer4Free.com (they were cleaver picking out THAT domain name, eh?)
Been saying this about MoFoTerry for years.
Well when you think about it… Considering how the catholic church screws up the life of the poor, it is only fitting that they declared her as a saint.
Thanks to UF, I’ve learned some very disconserting things about Mother Teresa that seem indefensible.
However, there’s one thing in this video that gets under my skin just a bit, and that’s the unqualified criticism of living in solidarity with the poor.
I’m currently serving as an AmeriCorps*VISTA member, and I’m technically classified as a full-time volunteer. I receive a living stipend that puts me at ~105% percent of the poverty level. The philosophical underpinning of the amount of the stipend is that there’s some lasting value to be had from voluntarily living in poverty, to experiencing what life is like in the communities in which you serve.
(Hopefully), this is temporary for me, and I also don’t think there’s any value to be had in keeping people in poverty, but I do think there’s something to be learned from living in solidarity with the poor. That’s a point that gets too quickly dismissed here.
I thought the criticism wasn’t over the “living in solidarity with the poor.” That is a worthwhile experience. The criticism was over keeping people poor so that you can live in solidarity with them. That’s just abusing others for your own jollies.
As I said below, perhaps I misunderstood. My bad, if so.
“However, there’s one thing in this video that gets under my skin just a bit, and that’s the unqualified criticism of living in solidarity with the poor”
What? The criticism was not unqualified. There was the Bill Donahue counterpoint. Besides that, solidarity with the poor is something that is more edifying for the missionary than the poor. The poor need something more tangible. If the poor had to choose between the missionary’s enlightenment and actual medical care, I’m sure they would choose the latter. No amount of “identification with the poor” can make up for the “culture of suffering” she propogated..
“seem indefensible”
They *are* indefensible.
BR…you said “Thanks to UF, I’ve learned some very disconserting things about Mother Teresa”…
A word of caution my friend. This forum is hoping to sway your confidence in all that is right, all that is pure and lovely. To make you question everything you think you know to be true of both God and man(kind). How do we know that what they are saying is not true? The defamation of character, slander and accusations we see here do not stem from the realm of truth, are not of that kind but have a different, darker origin. And as such are not trustworthy, can not be received as truth. Its not merely what is being said, but the manner in which it is delivered. The means and spirit in which the defamations arise give away their source, their paternity for every spoken (and written) word has a Father, has a Source. Who is doing the speaking here? Where does it come from?
I dont know much about Mother Teresa, am not defending her or the Catholic church, this is more about learning to discern between the true and the false than it is about Mother Teresa.
All the best…
Yeah, how could atheists know what is true or false without little angels on their shoulders telling them?
Angels not required…its all within you. Yes, you too.
John C, you’re full of shit. Seriously. People who knew the woman are willing to stand up and slate her, facts that are easily verifiable as true show her to be a giant hypocrite of the kind the catholic church throws up all too often – and yet YOU, a man who believes in an imaginary sky-daddy on the basis of NO EVIDENCE AT ALL, are urging BRGulker to disbelieve what’s being said.
John, you come across as deluded and a bit mental, but you’ve never come across as willfully stupid. Until now.
Oh, be careful BRGulker! Be very careful! John C is worried that you might trade in your Christian membership because you watched a video! You didn’t grow down, my ffff… you grew fearful of free information. There’s a monster under your bed, there’s a dragon in your closet, better seal off yourself before someone changes your mind, John, be scared of information! Tell others to be scared of losing their way! I have never heard a more convincing argument to avoid Christianity than your messages. Who would want to be like you?
Those who want to know the Truth. Those who are no longer content to wander in the desert of human reasoning. Those who long to come out of the darkness, those who want to be truly free. That’s the effect of truth, its always liberating.
I love the Truth and the Truth loves me.
You are calling something truth that is make-believe. You are calling something childlike that is ignorant. What you know or what you’ve been told is all the fantasy you want and it makes you feel good, but you best watch and read things presented to you and comment accordingly. If you are not convinced of Mother Teresa’s hypocrisy, comment on it. Don’t just look at the subject header and start warning other random Christians about lies Daniel is spreading. It is liberating to find out that Mother Teresa was a BS artist. It is not liberating to read your posts where you talk all the mumbo-jumbo and start telling people to be careful.
You serve as a very stern warning against getting mixed up in this Christianity bullshit. I used to be more apathetic about my atheism, not really think about it every day, but you have put me on the alert. I hope I don’t accidentally get swayed one day to believe in your fairy stories. Sounds upsetting to be that stupid. If I need light, I make sure and keep my electricity bill paid. If I want truth, I respect Daniel for posting articles of interest to educate me on the bullshit surrounding Ms. Agnes the Supernun so I don’t walk around thinking she was actually one of the good people. You are corrupt. Your whole belief is nonsense. Either have something to say about the TOPIC, the article or the video that we’ve been presented – whichever side you want to argue – or keep your business to yourself.
John, every word you type just proves that you wouldn’t know the truth if it jumped up and bit you. More – you don’t WANT to know the truth. You CLAIM that you already know the truth, that it’s somehow been revealed to you, but you “know” nothing. It’s all bullshit. The actual, REAL truth disagrees with what you WANT to be the truth, so you lie to yourself and the world, and you pretend it’s the truth, as if deluding yourself can somehow make your ignorance into wisdom.
But whatever, man. Type your flowery platitudes. Don’t even pretend to have read or comprehended this. I know you can’t.
John C: Angels not required…its[sic] all within you. Yes, you too.
Yep, it’s all within you! If it feels right, believe it!
Check out On Being Certain.
It isn’t.
A good wee tad of it is actually outside you and all around you.
Like, um, everything else that’s not you.
The only person who shows up to proselytize here is YOU. If we were going to religious sites to argue against their faith, you’d have a point to make. Since Daniel is an atheist speaking largely to other atheists, you don’t.
So, you know, STFU.
STFU? Stick To Faith Unseen?
Hi Ty, how are you? I’m doing well, thanks for asking. :)
silly thoughts flying unhinged?
Supernatural Truth Finally Unearthed?
I dislike hypocrisy, I admit it.
It’s one of the things that gets my blood up the fastest.
You’re the guy who goes to the D&D game (on purpose!) and then complains that the people are trying to get him to play D&D. All while spending the whole time telling everyone how stupid D&D is.
Actually, I have cut way, way back on participation on the forum as promised.
Ps…D&D? Yea, stooopid, lol. j/k
Did you just mention “D&D” and “stupid” (or “stooopid”, to be more precise) in the same sentence?!
I warn you, John C. We can argue about religious nonsense all day long, but when it comes to RPGs, I can’t take a joke! (Seriously!!!)
People can defend their beliefs. That’s all fine and good, Defend your heroes. But when an egregious flaw is revealed, admit it. It not my team vs. your team. Christians vs the Lions. It is about telling the truth. Some of my hero’s are Christian. But they are not my heroes because they are Christian. They are my heroes because they did good or heroic things.
99.999999999% chance John C never watched the video, so he thinks this is just slander and not carefully researched and reported for the fraud Mother Teresa was.
John C, don’t comment if you’re going to remain ignorant, don’t slander Daniel for reporting things on his website that are factual, for people watching it, and for people thinking for themselves. That’s a really dirty game you play.
I’ve never slandered Daniel, I have only disagreed and spoken the truth.
You did, you said what he posted was a lie and you never even watched it.
You’ve never spoken the truth, John. Ever.
“Being certain is nice, but it’s doubt that gets you an education.”
John, you’re exactly right. We are trying to get you to question everything you know about god. The only misunderstanding here is that you seem to think that’s a bad thing. It’s not. People SHOULD question their beliefs.
Though I do take some offense to you saying we’re trying to sway him against all that is pure and lovely. We’re not evil. Seriously.
I didnt say you were evil, only deceived. There’s a big difference. It’s the slander, defamation itself that tells me those words are untrue, not the words themselves for that is not how Truth communicates…truth. All the best Mahou.
So if you hear something you don’t like it is automatically untrue?
So much for your Truth.
TRJ…Truth doesnt present itself in the manner in which Mother Teresa was slandered here, its modest, kind and considerate.
That’s how you know where it comes from. once you know the voices, you know the Source. All the best
So your absolute Truth is subjective. It depends on who’s saying things and how they do it. The actual substance of what they’re saying is always made unTrue if they say it in a derogatory way.
Ok, I think I got it. Your Truth has nothing to do with actual objective truth, it is simply a label. It means words or thoughts that make you feel warm and fuzzy inside while avoiding having to decide anything concrete whatsoever.
I’m not surprised.
“Ok, I think I got it. Your Truth has nothing to do with actual objective truth, it is simply a label. It means words or thoughts that make you feel warm and fuzzy inside while avoiding having to decide anything concrete whatsoever.”
A fifth of Southern Comfort = The Truth!!!
Excuse me, I’m going off to do some research.
Be careful, Sunny. Too much Truth will make your head hurt.
“Truth doesnt present itself in the manner in which Mother Teresa was slandered here, its modest, kind and considerate.”
John C, you live in a dream world. WAKE UP
John, you sound more than a bit mentally disturbed.
Seek professional help.
Where did you see this defamation and slander, John? I think you’re trolling now. You like it when you are vague and say stupid things to get the responses to revolve around you. You are loving this.
Mahousniper told you that people should question your beliefs. John C, your “truth” and your god is pretty much a weak pansy to be so hypersensitive to being questioned. Like it must be a fantasy that will blow away in the slightest scrutiny.
A word of caution, John C. When the truth conflicts with what you wish to be true, wishing harder won’t accomplish anything. If you can refute the claims about Mother Teresa, do so. If you cannot, then saying those things are lies is.. well, dishonest. You reek of denial.
John C: “I didnt say you were evil, only deceived. There’s a big difference.”
No, I’m sorry, there’s not a “big difference”. This is the same equivocation we’re all used to seeing when you (mis)speak, and then attempt to save-face, which is why you do the curly shuffle here, and in past “discussions”..i.e..when you come here to proselytize.
If “the Devil” is “evil” because he’s a “Deceiver”, then those who are deceived into deceiving others(as you claim in post July 25, @2:54) are also “evil”. And let’s not forget that these evil, deceived human beings “live outside of it[love]“, according to John C.
Again, you evidentally think your personalized, (unconfirmed/unconfirmable) religious beliefs give you some sort of “spiritual” license to talk down to and judge other human beings. Ironically, your incessant ministering portrays you as just the opposite type of person you claim to be. You are pathetic.
John C?…you ARE pathetic.
Well, you “seem” to have very biased skin: nothing the religious right does, no matter how extreme, but only atheist criticism, gets under it.
Of course people have biases based on what they themselves believe. One might say that fairly innocuous actions by religious sources get under the skin of some commenters here pretty easily, while they may give the provocative rhetoric and actions of atheists a less jaundiced eye. Is that not to be expected? Hardly worth pointing out, I would think.
nothing the religious right does,
Uhh… what?
Maybe I’ve misunderstood the video, but when I watched it, thought I heard some direct criticism of living in solidarity with the poor. I could be wrong about that. If so, my bad. I apologize for getting it wrong.
But even so, I don’t think my misunderstanding of the video undermines the point: there is some value to be derived from living in solidarity from those who are less fortunate than oneself.
@ John C:
What I meant was this, if not for UF, I probably would have never considered looking into the financial practices of Mother Teresa, which are undoubtedly disconserting. I did some of my own research after someone (Aor?) posted some links that discredited her. I wish it weren’t true, but it seems to be so.
I did some of my own research after someone (Aor?) posted some links that discredited her. I wish it weren’t true, but it seems to be so.
I was irritated when I found out too, if for no other reason than that it was no longer possible for me to use Mother Teresa as the rhetorical epitome of selfless virtue.
That combined with her nagging doubts about God makes it tragic.
I have known these things for a few years but anytime the subject is brought up the believers close their ears. Like anything else within their religion they only want to scratch the surface and not look fully into it.
If someone lives in solidarity with the poor because that person sees it as a chance to further his/her agenda, then that person is doing it for the wrong reasons. If she had used the money to better the conditions instead of wasting it on building useless structures this world would be a better place. Like many religious organizations the money wasn’t spent as the people giving it thought it would be. I wonder how many people would keep giving to groups like this if the group told the truth of what they would be spending it on.
The same is true for Gandhi, he was also not a saint, he for example did tend to sleep with underaged girls.
He was also an extreme racist who represented South Africa’s pre-Apartheid Segregationist government as a lawyer as part of his own personal hatred of black Africans. Funny how that gets glossed over.
Complete pacifism is revered like perfection, but I think it’s sort of cowardly. Did you know that Gandhi thought that during WWII, the Jews should have committed suicide en masse (he believed in reincarnation, after all), to frustrate the Germans and win the sympathy of the world? Did he want the rest of the world to commit suicide too? Should the Allies have been pacifists? Any system of ethics that requires everyone to follow it in order to work is broken.
Any system of ethics that requires everyone to follow it in order to work is broken.
So very, very true.
But at least he has many, many good qualities. He was much more tolerant than most other people in the area. In that time, basically everyone in India was racist about something. It’s not surprising to find out he was too.
As for underage girls, “underage” varies from place to place. I don’t care if he slept with 16 year old underage. If it was 8 year old underage, we might have a bit more of a problem…
Yes. Gandhi was imperfect, but I don’t think he was evil. Facts about Mother Theresa, on the other hand, are somewhat horrifying…
Did you know that Gandhi thought that during WWII, the Jews should have committed suicide en masse (he believed in reincarnation, after all), to frustrate the Germans and win the sympathy of the world?
That’s not evil?
So do you accept that belief in an afterlife is dangerous yet?
Uh, no, given that he didn’t actually have any influence on those people…
I have to wonder if that had happened, if we’d all like Hitler better and use Gandhi for a Godwin. It’s pretty deluded and sick to even suggest, even if he didn’t have any influence over the Jews.
It wouldn’t make him evil if he actually believed in reincarnation. Just radical and maybe ruthless. He has as much evidence backing him up as Christians have for their beliefs about the afterlife.
I’d have a problem with him sleeping with my 16 year.
Ghandi also denied his wife medical care, stating that it would be god’s will if she lived or died…. than years after her death he accepted medical care for himself.
It’s always about Gods Will, when it’s about someone else.
You know, as much as I m disappointed in religion, it still comes up with new and novel ways to disappoint. Here’s someone who I at least wanted to respect, but, well….
Sigh.
Just ask yourself a (seemingly) simple question: Why do I want to respect someone?
As soon as you demand some hard facts or undoubted morals, religious woo-woo wielders will fall by the dozens ;-)
Oh there are good religious people out there that does a lot of good things too.
But you won’t see them on TV and they are not that visible.
I note that JohnC used the usual religious obfuscation instead of, you know, facts or logic. Typical and understandable, since facts and logic have a well known atheist bias! (to paraphrase my favorite lapsed catholic, Colbert)
JohnC, I bet your mom said you were special. Did you ever consider what she really meant?
Take your superstitious mental masturbation somewhere else, please.
Extra points to Hitchens for the title of his book.
Poverty will always exist as long as there are powerful interests that benefit from having an underclass.
1. Religion. Most religious groups see the writing on the wall. As people become better educated, women have access to family planning, and more people become more prosperous, societies become less religious. Just look at the examples since World War Two; Japan, South Korea, India, Ireland, Uruguay, Costa Rica, Tunisia. Why don’t the Saudis use all that oil money to build the best universities in the Middle East and attract the best teachers? The answer is obvious and they know it.
It is also interesting the the Catholic Church and the pope favor open immigration for the United States, where the bulk of immigrates are from Catholic Latin America, but favor tighter immigration in Europe, where the bulk of immigrates are Muslim.
2. Corporate. My companies need the content stream of cheap undereducated labor. This is especially true in the United States, the only country with welcomes large amounts of unskilled workers and the same time shipping many manufacturing jobs in China and other third world nations. It also reflected in the fact that America has free trade with Communist China (2 billion people) and an embargo with Communist Cuba (only 10 million people, a smaller market and higher pay).
3. The Left. While many of the left claim the love the poor, the use the poor to achieve power. In America this can be scene in our immigration policy. Its does not make sense that you help the native born poor by importing more poor people. The Left just wants to import more voters for the Democrats. (Yes corporate interest also favor this policy for other reasons).
When President Obama spoke at the NAACP 100 anniversary convention, he talked about what might happen at the NAACP 200 anniversary convention. Shouldn’t he said “Hopefully 100 years from now there won’t be a need for the NAACP”. Most advocacy groups truly don’t want there pet problem to go away, because it would be a lost of power and wealth.
Also many environmentalists see increased prosperity in as bad for the environment.
4. Those who view the poor as a cultural group. There are some who view impoverish areas as a place where are best artists and athletes come from. I actually remember a professor at college talking about this. There is still the myth of the tortured artist. That in order to be a great artist, one must have background of being the victim of poverty, racism, parental, sexual and/or drug abuse.
We know how to end poverty: education, secularism, rule of law, (laws based on reason and debate, not ancient holy books) equal status for women, family planning, merit based immigration policies, and access to all forms of information. There is just the problem of political correctness and cultural relativism that keep people from having a real debate on these issues.
I would say at the core of the problem lies greed. It is unconscionable that so much of the wealth is in the hands of so few people while much of the world dies of lack and the rest are on an ever-accelerating economic treadmill.
I think you hit it right on the mark with this comment. Yeah nomad extreme greed is the biggest problem with the way the whole goes. Now the real question how do you make extreme greed wrong. I think to advance we need greed but not the type that we have within the upper levels of corporations and religion.
I disagree with #2 — in places where US companies have outsourced, wages and quality of life have increased.
However, great thoughts!
I think you can summarize and catch those you missed with a simple answer
Who keeps the poor, poor?
The not-poor.
and obviously some of the poor keep themselves there.
John C… I know exactly what you mean and understand what you are saying. Unfortunately we live in an age of relativism where ‘truth’ is defined by ones own thought or reasoning, not by God. Also evil can be portrayed as good and good as evil. Mother Teresa self seeking???? I think it says something in the Gospels about God choosing to reveal things to the simple and hide them from the ‘learned’. Or the humble confounding the ‘wise’. I think the simplicity of Mother Teresa’s life is something that could never be understood by people who lack simplicity and purity of heart. They can’t relate to her at all.
Signing off
“Unfortunately we live in an age of relativism where ‘truth’ is defined by ones own thought or reasoning, not by God.”
I might be misunderstanding your angle here, but are you saying that truth is subjective according to who you are and that it’s a pity truth isn’t simply what god says is true? Because, if you are, I have to call bullshit on both counts! The truth is what’s true – facts prove truths, opinions don’t.
“Also evil can be portrayed as good and good as evil.”
The opposite of truth: Good and evil are entirely relative to who’s defining them. The reality is that there’s no such thing as good or evil, just things which help a particular social group and things which hinder that group.
“I think it says something in the Gospels about God choosing to reveal things to the simple and hide them from the ‘learned’.”
That’s because religion existed back then, just as it does now, to control the ignorant, uneducated masses. Look at the Muslim theocracies; look at their flag-burning, rabble-rousing, blind obedience to whoever the religious leader of the day happens to be. Do you really think that Christianity is any different? It’s not. The ‘learned’ simply aren’t ignorant enough to fall for the self-serving shite that churches spew out as “God’s will”.
“I think the simplicity of Mother Teresa’s life is something that could never be understood by people who lack simplicity and purity of heart.”
Oh, come on! Did you even watch that video? MoFo Teresa didn’t have “purity of heart” – she had Catholic dogma. If you actually read about her you might learn something! She was NOT her media image (a gentle, kind nun) – she was a controlling, manipulative, dogmatic fraud with about the same caring nature as a rabid rottweiler!
“They can’t relate to her at all.”
You’re right about that at least – even if it is for all the wrong reasons.
I think that Kate should investigate the real life from Mother Theresa, not the hyped media type that she is a saint.
“Simplicity” just does not go with a person who is in the photo-album of the gods, goddesses and powerful people of the world. Watch the video. Except for Elvis, who is missing?
That’s a load of opinion that doesn’t say anything.
That’s your ASSumption and opinion, not even necessarily true. It’s an old saw. An old christian saw. A platitude. Lacking evidence.
‘Truth’ is defined by research, observation, reasoning, more than “one’s own” thought, as if one person in isolation came up with everything all on his own without reading or learning.
You ASSume it’s a bad thing.
Not to worry: you produced a platitude of words, that don’t necessarily point back to any fact. i.e.: the “bad thing” isn’t necessarily factual or true.
Not everyone believes in and lives by your particular chosen mythology. So to you, this imagined or trumped-up “relativism” seems to be true, and to you it’s unfortunate, because in your bunch of words without evidence, people are “doing” this without regard to your particular deity.
“Unfortunately we live in an age of relativism where ‘truth’ is defined by ones own thought or reasoning, not by God”
hahahahahahaha that is pretty funny
how dare we base truths on thought and reasoning when a perfectly good sky daddy gave us truth in his magic book of life’s secrets circa 2000 years ago
” I think it says something in the Gospels about God choosing to reveal things to the simple and hide them from the ‘learned’. Or the humble confounding the ‘wise’”
hey everyone, i am ignorant and proud of it because god prefers ’simple’ people
This video portrays mother teresa as a little puppet. Trotted out here and there to raise money. She was a puppet – no doubt controlled by the devil. Oh and Daniel is controlled by the devil too for posting this defamatory crap. Anything that is not warm and fuzzy and lovely is controlled by the devil. That mean, mean evil little creature. He is cunning – watch out for him. He will deceive you if you’re not careful. Oh and those doubts you may have…the devil as well. Watch out – for the devil.
And that’s the Truth.
I am surprised no one has mentioned this book.
http://www.meteorbooks.com/
Mother Teresa: The Final Verdict It’s by an Indian, Aroup Chatterjee, and I hear it’s much more detailed than the Hitchens book. I own it, but you can read it on line. This is my Amazon review: Mother Teresa: The Final Verdict
I have read this, and it was very well researched. I was a fan of hers at one time, until this book opened my eyes and led me to other research. If you research a public figure and they are not worthy of praise, then it’s a good idea to expose them. One 1 star reviwer says, “”I also bet that he couldn’t say something nice about Mother Teresa if his life depended on it.”" Actually, he is much kinder towards her than I would be. Mr. Chatterjee gives her the benefit of the doubt at many turns.
I was struck by how much she resembles “The Worst Father Ever Imagined” in her treatment of those she purported to love. She was certainly true to her creed.
Very vile viewpoint of someone who sacrificed their whole BEING for servitude of the least, last and the lost. Even preliminary research shows that she is what she is famed to be. Unless of course you’re calling the Nobel Peace Prize a sham, etc. etc.
I guess you can choose to ignore to all of the praise and wonder, and continue to confine yourself to an existence of cynicism, trying to find all that is wrong with these so-called “Good People”.
If you ask me, that is a sad life to live.
Let us get the word out about this thrill-seeker who glorified suffering and enjoyed others suffering1 Remember her dark night of faith! The Ground of Being wasn’t speaking to her despite all that glorifying suffering.
She was a strange person like Yeshua the fanatic cult leader himself! How people rationalize the Tanakh and the Testament and such as she ; faith doth that to people!
We new atheists, anti-theists, have the duty to mock these absurdities and these people!