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Jabster: “I see a lot of things science has produced for our benefit. Religion hasn’t given us anything to compare.”... Fooling Ourselves
Brian: the first time I see a monk levitate up to the moon I’ll start giving religion a little more respect. Theologians... Fooling Ourselves
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Funny, except nowhere in Genesis says the snake was Satan. One would think that’s an important detail in the story, especially when the author found relevant to inform us that before kicking A&E out of the garden, god took the trouble of making them clothes (genesis 3.21). Somebody in the church must have realized how stupid god looked outmanouvred by a reptile and decided that if the snake was Satan it would be a little less ridiculous.
It’s curious how most people, even atheists, miss the fact that god lies to Adam about the consecuences of eating the fruit (gen 2.17: he tells him he will die), while everything the snake says is absolutlty true: that eating the fruit won’t make them die, and they’ll learn about good and evil.
Yes, in eating the “fruit” they (and we) most certainly died a spiritual death being separated from the life of God (who is Life Himself). As in adam all died, so in Christ shall all be made alive ( 1 Cor 15.22). The “clothes” you reference in Gen 3.21 that Father gives adam and eve (adam & eve were actually one being prior to the fall, not two) is actually “skins of woe”, our human skin which is now (after the fall) subject to death and decay, pain, suffering, etc. The fall effectively lowered us from a high spiritual state above the temporal limitations we experience now down into the realm of the flesh where death, pain and suffering are possible, even the unfortunate norm.
The problem is that we assume the man(kind) we see today is his original, created state/self. We have no other referance for mankind, but what we see today is a very poor substitute. That’s why we look at Christ (a type of adam, son of God/man) who reflects the original glory. The Dead Sea Scrolls make repeated reference to “the glory of adam” before the fall of man.
JC – I’m having a hard time figuring out if you take the story literally or not. If Eve was a spirit (“high spiritual state” with no “temporal limitations”) how could or why would she eat something? You have creative interpretations but you either take the story literally or you do not – there is no middle ground. It seems to me you take it as a metaphor but if it didn’t actually happen – now that poses a great many other problems.
No it’s “real” alright (and so is our/mankind’s desparate plight) but the story is not accurately understood by most. Eve (the soul of man) didnt “eat” a literal fruit, but was intrigued by, acquiesced to (ingested in her consciousness, inner being) a lesser (realm/degree) form of life that was outside the (highest) form of Life Itself. And since we become like what we worship (bow, surrender to) then we also assumed a lowered form, ie the flesh which is lower than the spirit (Jesus saying that which is of the flesh is flesh, that which is spirit is spirit) and are now subject to its limitations. So man, who was made in the express image and likeness of the Father (who is Spirit, Jn 4) took on flesh (the beastly nature). Now Christ (in humility, love) assumes that same lowered condition taking upon Him (Spirit) the same garments of flesh subject to death and decay as we.
As death (sin) came thru one man (adam) so also Life comes thru one man…Christ.
Eve (the soul of man) didnt “eat” a literal fruit, but was intrigued by, acquiesced to (ingested in her consciousness, inner being) a lesser (realm/degree) form of life that was outside the (highest) form of Life Itself.
Um, didn’t God say something like, if they eat the fruit “they will become as like God”?
God is a lesser form of life?
Huh.
Being “like God” means they now had to find life in and of themselves. Previously He was their life (He is Life itself). This is mankind’s problem, we dont know where to “find life”. So we search high and low, near and far trying to satiate our longing hearts in sex, alcohol, pleasure, anything to self-medicate, to try and numb the pain of the Great Loss who He is.
Uh.
Hmm…
John, after reading this and the previous post, I would like to refer you to Occam’s Razor. Making the story/idea more complex does not make any more true.
so Eve didn’t actually “eat” anything – there was no physical tree or serpent. She just had a thought? Is that what “ingested in her consciousness” means? These were real spirits that were then morphed into human form correct? Adam and Eve did physically exist and walk this earth as human beings correct?
The “tree” is a root system within each of us from which we draw our life source, live from be it deathly or living sustenance, ie either Christ (the tree of life, grace & truth, liberty, single natured) or the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (the law, sin, morality, death, duality, separation).
She “ate” meaning she “partook of it” thru temptation via the Serpant (reptilian/lower mind which had formerly been subject to her spirit Head, ie adam usurping his authority resulting in an inversion, a turning upside down now being primarily flesh/self dominant, not spirit/God dominant) and now propogated in the seed of adam (a fallen species) that morphed, alien form we call mankind today with all it’s ills, infirmities, perverted distortions, etc. It’s His image in us that’s been defaced. This is what Christ restores, the glory lost.
As to your last question, adam and eve were originally one being, an adam/eve since they were made in the very image and likeness of God who is genderless, neither male or female but possesses both male and female attributes, natures. Adam/eve was originally an ethereal dual unity (spiritually whole) but were separated after the fall into two distinct (male and female) beings. Ever since then, man and woman have longed to “become as one” again in the sexual union. The pleasure experienced in sexual union has a spiritual significance, is a latent memory, reminder of the original constitution, purpose. Jesus said in Matthew “in the beginning God made them (adam/eve) male and female”.
So yes, adam and eve (after the fall, physically speaking) walked as we do “in the earth”. Again, we have no other reference for mankind, we have a sense that something isnt right, is amiss but cant quite put our finger on it. The problem is this marred, distorted man we see today out of who’s heart we see “all manners of evil proceeding”, ie murders, envy, greed, etc as JC said. Why the stark contrast in mankind?
Anyway, I’m beginning to ramble on and I know how much Daniel loves that, ha. Enough for now, all the best to you Vid.
So yes, adam and eve (after the fall, physically speaking) walked as we do “in the earth”.
You lost me there. All the best.
And that, my friends, is what we call “mental gymnastics.”
You know, this way, it sounds like we’d been done a favor. There was this crazy story and the first two people who heard it thought it was mighty ridiculous – because it is. It’s really the lot of mankind who yearn for an impossibly perfect world, who mislabel this a “fall.” Reality and reason and knowledge of good and evil has always been here, it’s the trust in god that all this was good because he said it was good, and now it’s going to be bad because they learned something he didn’t tell them and expressly forbade them to learn – a test. That’s not Satan, that’s just part of life.
John, everything you say sounds like symbolism. I think you are taking symbolism to heart as things that really happened, but they sound like any other myth of creation. Whether or not you take the fruit literally or making up your own nonsense interpretations, you are taking a myth seriously. I can understand the want of mankind to wish, once it was perfect, and got quickly corrupted. You look around your world and see “evidence” the way you wish to interpret it – all the bad things, all the knowledge and reason “ruined” a perfection, and that someday, we can live that life again, as it was meant to be.
If any of this were true, God wouldn’t have doomed the first two humans on the planet and all their descendants. He could destroy it and start from zero. You make a garden of Utopian earth and put any one person, or two if you want it the same, they’re going to eat the apple every time.
It sounds like a myth because it is a myth. If god didn’t want anyone to know about good and evil, he wouldn’t have put the tree there, the snake there, or humans fallible and susceptible to curiosity. I mean, there were only two people and one of them already “screwed up.” That’s a very small sampling for forbidden behavior. It’s obvious he didn’t design us correctly if that’s the natural outcome. To kill them and make better models didn’t occur to him?
It’s egregious that the generations of mankind have to “suffer” the world as it really is (the way it always was, and which we have to deal with, whether or not you think god is real) if that’s the case, lifetimes and lifetimes and lifetimes, only to possibly get into heaven if they choose to prove themselves stupid enough, threatened with eternal hellfire for using our noodle, that was designed by god to be ignored….. it’s a myth, John. It sounds like people just like making up stuff, like “the good old days,” and “happily ever after.” Just about every Christian gets some peace of mind from the Jesus story, even though a lot of them do not “walk the walk” because of myths like this, and myths like Jesus – before, you had to depend on grace, and now you can be saved just by thinking so, and judging other people to not be doin’ it right, including other Christians, and judging hypocritically the myths of other cultures. Salvation is possible now, whoopee! Actually looking forward to death now, as most people who believe this BS also think they are getting a ticket to heaven. Why doesn’t god, omnipotent, wake us all up tomorrow and make earth heaven again, why did he do it all half-assed? Because it’s untrue.
That’s the kind of wishful thinking religion is. I know you take it literally, heaven is a real place, you take your childlike myths that don’t become any more real by elective lobotomy, that once there was a time and that’s the answer to the wonder what happens after we die – it comforts people, but that doesn’t make it true.
Shorter JohnC:
“It’s a metaphor. It isn’t meant to be taken literally!”
And in this we are 100% in agreement. To assign literal meanings to anything in the Bible is risky at best. However, since no-one agrees on what the myths mean, and since the stories largely aren’t relevant to a modern society, why don’t we throw the whole book into the mythology bin and move on, eh?
John C doesn’t typically understand metaphors. He uses them, but he doesn’t comprehend others’ use of them. He is really offended that when we say something like:
Sky-Daddy Sky-Daddy Sky-Daddy.
that we’re obscuring the truth with utter lies and sometimes innocent misunderstandings, taught by our church background instead of by the light itself. There is no sky-daddy, he is indwelling. There was no apple, there was the symbolic consumption of truth…. which is the true story. On the one hand, that’s ridiculous, he would say. Whoever believes that is a dummy. On the other hand, he offers up some creative explanations that he neither recognizes as metaphors, symbolism, or equally ridiculous.
Kodie-
I am not offended by Sky Daddy in the least because its impossible to offend a dead man, lol (now go figure that one out). It always draws me out because its such a common misconception and I just figure you guys might care to be properly informed (of what you dont believe, ha).
A metaphoric style of writing may lack credibility in your estimation compared to plain literation but its actually the most powerful (and ancient)form of (textual) communication in that it employs an artistic component with which the human capacity may better and more fully comprehend the writer’s intentions.
The ancients appreciated the importance of such, even more so than today in many ways. Our many “advancements” have often come at the cost of our hearts (spiritual sensitivities) imho.
All the best to Kodie…
Sky-daddy is not a misconception, John. Like I said, you don’t get metaphors. You don’t even get that you don’t get them. You discard earthbound metaphorical phrasing for the same thing that you believe is absolutely true and beautiful. Only it’s all the same thing. Being metaphors is what makes them speak of the same thing. One, you think is a ridiculous misconception, and the other one you speak of and believe is the truth. They’re the same thing. Believe one, then you believe both. Disbelieve one, then you must honestly conclude they’re both crap.
I’m not saying that all of scripture is metaphor Kodie. I understand metaphor just fine thank you. Why is it that so many Bostonian’s, New England’ers are so abrasive, uptight? Dare I say rude? That’s a major stereotype I realize, but geez, I think you guys need to come down south and “sit a spell”, chill, relax on the veranda with us and sip some lemonade, learn about good ol’ Southern hospitality.
:) Smile :)
I’m not a New Englander. I don’t think other Bostonians are abrasive. You are making assumptions on my upbringing and changing the subject, because you are a twit. I don’t know or care where you live, where you were born, but I know what you sound like. My guess would be space, but then I think that’s wrong. In a cave. Under a rock. In a bag with the other hammers.
Kodie…I’m being silly, playin’ around here a bit. Please dont take it personally, I do not intend it in an ugly, personal or unkind manner.
I wish you all the best, have an awesome night…please. Peace, peace.
Sincerely,
Mr. Twit :))
This shits me. The bible does not claim that god made the earth appear 4 billion years old, or that dinosaur fossils were placed there to confuse people. Satan was not banished to earth[1], he came here of his own free will.
Yes, there are many problems with the creation myths in genesis (starting from the fact that they contradict each other in details like ordering; and going right up to the fact that neither myth matches observable evidence); but straw-man mocking of things that aren’t in the myths is pointless.
[1] Or if he was, I’ve forgotten about it. I doubt it though; much, much later, Satan still had free access to Heaven (cf Job, where he keeps popping in to have a little chat with God about Job).
Satan was not banished to earth[1], he came here of his own free will.
Well, since “Satan” was a job description, probably most accurately he was ordered here to work.
The bible does, however, claim that it was created as we see it… and it looks 4 billion years old. Therefore, the biblical claims about creation imply (in the logical sense) the claim you’re trying to poo-poo.
Right, they imply; but they don’t directly state.
I think I agree what direct implications fall under “according to the bible”, so I concede your point.
In most tradition Satan was banished to the abyss/hell, but somehow allowed to operate on earth as well. He didn’t go of his own free will, however, from any tradition I have heard of.
Any Christian tradition. The Jewish traditions regarding Satan (if he is understood as a singular entity at all) are…more charitable.
After the exile, some of the Jews did absorb the Zoroastrian tradition of Ahriman/Angra Mainyu, which has the single dark god imprisoned in the earth.
There are some hints in the apocrypha, but it’s a mish-mash. 1st Enoch has angelic beings corrupting humanity before being imprisoned in the earth. The 1st century CE text, Apocalypse of Moses clearly links the serpent in the garden with Satan, and gives the (now) traditional explanation of why he is hostile to humanity: he rebelled against God and was cast down.
So there are some signs that the modern interpretation of Satan’s role was shared by some of the Jews. Just not all Jews, or maybe even many Jews. And it’s also not biblical, unless you’re willing to read a lot into the text.
If I’m remembering the tradition correctly, ha-Satan was the angel tasked with prosecuting the crimes of Israel before God, so it was never really on anyone’s favorite-angel-of-the-Lord-list on any level; and makes sense that the Jews in Mesopotamia and Persia would be receptive to a Zoroastrian reinterpretation of its role.
…but straw-man mocking of things that aren’t in the myths is pointless.
I would argue that mythic content includes any oral histories or traditions that accompany the text, and are as such open to similar criticism (since they are used by many users of the myth to aid interpretation).
Sure; but if you’re going to mock the surrounding traditions and oral histories, call it “According to the Bible and Christian Tradition”, not just “According to the Bible”.
The bible does not claim that god made the earth appear 4 billion years old, or that dinosaur fossils were placed there to confuse people
But this is how some fundamentalist why the earth “appears” old. A 6,000 year old earth would not have vast petroleum reserves, diamonds etc…
There will be fewer stars visible in the night sky. How can I see a star that is 20,000 light years away when the universe is only 6,000 years old? The fundamentalist knows this. So they would say, “just as god created Adam and Eve as adults, he created an old universe for them to live in”
But if god made the universe appear older then it is, then our universe is a forgery, and a forgery is a lie. So the god of the fundamentalist is a liar.
The physical earth is ancient. But time as we know it is an illusion. Things “appear” to us one way in the temporal, but the truth of it is often very different.
“Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so.”
~Ford Prefect
“Rrrrrarrrh! Timecube!”
~Gene Ray
this was good. the story of how satan came about is just as absurd. a bad angel got into a battle with god. you’d think the angel knew who created him and that there was no way he could win. And then we have that old problem – well if god made the devil – why can’t he just destroy him lol!
The Bible arose from ancient oral stories. These myths themselves arise from unconscious memories and perceptions common to much of humanity. Viewed as a metaphorical window into commonalities of our own psyche, the Adam & Eve myth is fascinating.
When a baby is in pain, he cries. But when the pain is over, the baby doesn’t ruminate over it and create additional suffering. A minute after crying, the baby may be laughing. However it may seems to outsiders, the baby is experiencing a type of paradise, with respect to the absence of thought-created suffering.
What’s it like when we lose this paradise? First, there’s the arisal of a distinctions made by thinking, setting up what I like against what I dislike. This is eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Then, there’s the appearance of self-consciousness, of I/my/me thinking. This is looking down and seeing my nakedness.
Reflective, self-contemplative consciousness can be a bummer, dude.
Interesting take. I wonder if it would have the same effect say if you:
1. Replaced every reference to Adam with Doctor Zorak – Master of Potions
2. Replaced every reference to Eve with Queen Fairy of the Misty Mountains
3. Replaced every reference to the Serpent with Dark Lord Python of the Snake Swamps
Same outcome you speak of?
You have rediscovered C.S. Lewis’ indubitably awesome book-generation algorithm!
You jest, but yes we see many illustrations of this in society, in culture, etc over the years. Fairy tales, good and evil, a dark villian, a hero, a “once upon a time” and a “happily ever after” all come out of this latent (paradaisical, edenic) memory we all have. Sounds childlike huh? You know where I’m going with that so I’ll just save us both the trouble, ha. All the best.
Yeah, John. In fact, the trope of made-up stories featuring Good, Evil, and agents working between them is so strong in human history that it might almost cause one to think that the Bible was nothing more than a collection of mistranslated Aramaic nomads’ tales.
But … Nah … It couldn’t be, could it?
No…it’s not. You were right the first time Met, all the best.
I realize this is a bit off topic,but you wouldn’t happen to be a student of Jung, would you?
No, but I am familiar with him, his philosophy.
How the cascade works:
Comment
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-=John C thinking it was for him.
LOL, only the Bored or Inexperienced speak directly to John C.
John, if you think we’re talking to you, stop.
Including now.
Good to hear from you again Sunny, cheery as usual I see. All the best.
I’ve noticed John hasn’t addressed anything I’ve said to him lately.
Sorry John, I was actually replying to Stuart. His comments read like Jung’s writing.
Oh, I see now, sorry my bad. Take care-
John c, do you have anything to back up your interpretation? It’s creative but lacks validity.
Interpretation? It’s total gibberish as usual. He obviously gets off on it. Don’t encourage him.
He is a dime-a-dozen streetcorner nutjob, he just has a larger audience here than out in the street.
That’s Sir nut job to you there Mr. Aor, *wink :)
Oh, did someone in your fantasies give you a knighthood?
Thx Darkthrone, I only have the following insights/experience to offer you. In 2007 I spent the entire year in a sequestered, consecrated, fasted, monk like state with very little or no human contact, no job, no money, no TV, no outside influences, etc, just me and Him. Under these (difficult) circumstances the spirit of God literally came and dwelt with me in my little apartment taking me into what I call “the deep place” in the spirit. I began to see and hear beautiful things that I had never seen or heard before. He took me back, showed me (just a little) of creation and the nature of things, why things are like they are, how we find ourselves in our (mankinds) current condition. I have seen that there is more available to us, but we tend to settle for far less than what we can have and know.
Btw…your screename, how’d you get it? Because every thought, word and deed has a “Father”, a source. Or did you know that iniquity has a throne? (Psalm 94.20). All the best to you.
John didn’t you know? He’s actually the Prince of Darkness. My heart told me so.
Honestly?
Sounds more like you had an emotional breakdown while under extreme isolation.
No, just the opposite. It was the most beautiful season of my life, that I ever experienced.
John, you do know that lack of nutrients can lead to hallucinations and delusions, don’t you? That is why fasting can be dangerous- many people do not know the safe limit for such practices.
Lots of delusions and psychological breakdowns result in feelings of euphoria. It’s not all that hard to get our brains pumping out endorphins and other consciousness altering chemicals. Isolation is just one of them.
Sorry, John, but your story there just reinforces my initial impression of you as a bit of a nut. A harmless nut, but a nut nonetheless.
And why can’t god show up for people who aren’t isolated and suffering from malnutrition? Makes you wonder why he needs people to be in a psychologically precarious state in order to make an appearance.
The spirit of god literally came to dwell in your apartment? Did he happen to pay half the bills?
He pays with love, Aor! And kittens.
Yes, actually He did pay the bills. That’s another story all together, but since you won’t believe it anyway I might as well spare us both the trouble. All the best.
Interesting point.. since nobody here believes your fables, why don’t you spare all of us your witless witnessing?
Because being a witless, obtuse bore on teh Intarwebz is far more absorbing than getting the psychiatric help (and, if applicable, appropriate meds) that he so desperately needs.
john c your story reminds me of the Arrested Development episode where George Bluth sr discovers Judaism while in solitary confinement in prison
ha, ha. Sounds kinda funny actually. But I was already a big time believer way prior to my “season” that I wrote about.
Thx Cynic, all the best.
Sorry john but that doesn’t prove anything you said as true. For all I know you could have been hallucinating. Either way, that doesn’t support what you said as true.
Google darkthrone.
It’s already been established that I can not “prove” anything, but rather I was merely sharing my experience with you. How is it that you seek “proof” from the immaterial from within the temporal (material) realm? The spiritual dimension is another (higher) realm than that of the earthly, natural realm and can not be “shared” but rather individually ascended, known via the kingdom of heaven within each of us (Luke 17.21).
All the best
John, according to your favourite figment, my soul is on the line. Why does he hate me so much that He can’t extend his infinitely powerful self to give me one teeny-weeny convincing little sign?
I lived 14 years believing wholeheartedly in a god. And another twenty or so in wavering doubt. Not so much as a lousy burning bush.
My heart and mind are open to him. All he needs to do is give me one convincing sign, clear, unfakeable, proof. To save my soul. To prevent one of his alleged children from suffering eternal torture in his own private Gitmo.
And he won’t extend his mighty self to turn me to him? Some “father”. I don’t know anyone–though I think there must be some folks–who’d willingly let a child stumble into eternal torture. Especially when they had the power to stop the whole stupid game simply by thinking it.
Do you think the souls in hell understand the magnificence and mercy of the god, and perceive the justness of what is being done to them?
Of course, for me that’s not a problem. I don’t believe in Big Daddy, nor in Heaven, nor Hell. But surely the problem of omniscience, omnipotence, and omnibenevolence nags at you at least a little?
Metro, all you have to do is sequester yourself in an abbey (preferably one dating back to the Middle Ages; the newer ones aren’t quite as “holy” as one might like), deprive yourself of food for a few days, chant invocations into the air nonstop, deprive yourself of sleep, and voila! You too can see “God.”
Personally I’d rather smoke a pound of weed. Same effect in much shorter time, plus you get to eat Doritos.
I actually have experience with both. I can tell you the Real is much preferred over the Weed, ha.
Regarding your earlier comments…its all rec’d by faith. I realize faith appears to you as a small, insignificant, powerless, even trivial matter but its much more than that. Once rec’d, this seed of incorruptible Life (Christ) grows into a mighty tree within overshadowing that other, deathly tree (life source). Just like the parable He told about the kingdom. PS…He even supplies the faith, its a gift. All the best.
So faith is a seed, or are you suggesting we start a grow-op for Christ? I could get behind that, I guess.
Where do we get these Jesus seeds, eh? Are they in the same place as your response to my asking why god hates me so much that he wouldn’t even think me to salvation?
I don’t think I have ever seen a straw-man that entertaining!
LOL, of course to a Theist it wasn’t a real account of their beliefs.
However if you were to write up your own Hyde, another Theist would be along to scoff that what you had written wasn’t a true account of their beliefs. And another, and another, and another. But thanks for the Drive By.
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