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	<title>Comments on: Life Among Conservative Christian Homeschoolers (Part 2)</title>
	<atom:link href="http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/10/02/life-among-conservative-christian-homeschoolers-part-2/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/10/02/life-among-conservative-christian-homeschoolers-part-2/</link>
	<description>Reasonable Thoughts on Religion, Science, Skepticism, and Atheism</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 20 Mar 2010 06:35:10 -0400</lastBuildDate>
	
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		<title>By: Stuart Resnick</title>
		<link>http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/10/02/life-among-conservative-christian-homeschoolers-part-2/#comment-65476</link>
		<dc:creator>Stuart Resnick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Oct 2009 00:55:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://unreasonablefaith.com/?p=7146#comment-65476</guid>
		<description>Correction to my 8:53 posting:

&quot;you&#039;ll get it in the public schools&quot;

should be

&quot;you won&#039;t get it in the public schools&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Correction to my 8:53 posting:</p>
<p>&#8220;you&#8217;ll get it in the public schools&#8221;</p>
<p>should be</p>
<p>&#8220;you won&#8217;t get it in the public schools&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Stuart Resnick</title>
		<link>http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/10/02/life-among-conservative-christian-homeschoolers-part-2/#comment-65473</link>
		<dc:creator>Stuart Resnick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Oct 2009 00:53:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://unreasonablefaith.com/?p=7146#comment-65473</guid>
		<description>In a totally live-and-let-live society, parents would be free to choose how their children are taught. Parents who wanted an education free from religion could do so, when those who wanted religion as part of education would be equally free to do so.

Our current system is already tilted. If you&#039;re committed to giving your children a relgion-based education, you&#039;ll get it in the public schools. So you decide to send your kids to a religious private school, or to home-school them. You&#039;re still forced to pay, with your taxes, for the public school that you don&#039;t want.

Atheist/secular people often argue that religious people are a menace, because they force their values on others. In this case, though, the religious parent is the one who wants their family to be left alone to educate as they choose. The atheist/secular people are more apt to advocate forcing these parents to, at the least, pay for the public schools in addition to the education they really want. At the worst, some on these forums advocate denying the religious parents the right to teach their own children, perhaps forcing them to send kids to public schools (in addition to forcing them to pay for it).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In a totally live-and-let-live society, parents would be free to choose how their children are taught. Parents who wanted an education free from religion could do so, when those who wanted religion as part of education would be equally free to do so.</p>
<p>Our current system is already tilted. If you&#8217;re committed to giving your children a relgion-based education, you&#8217;ll get it in the public schools. So you decide to send your kids to a religious private school, or to home-school them. You&#8217;re still forced to pay, with your taxes, for the public school that you don&#8217;t want.</p>
<p>Atheist/secular people often argue that religious people are a menace, because they force their values on others. In this case, though, the religious parent is the one who wants their family to be left alone to educate as they choose. The atheist/secular people are more apt to advocate forcing these parents to, at the least, pay for the public schools in addition to the education they really want. At the worst, some on these forums advocate denying the religious parents the right to teach their own children, perhaps forcing them to send kids to public schools (in addition to forcing them to pay for it).</p>
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		<title>By: Ceu</title>
		<link>http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/10/02/life-among-conservative-christian-homeschoolers-part-2/#comment-65306</link>
		<dc:creator>Ceu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Oct 2009 00:30:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://unreasonablefaith.com/?p=7146#comment-65306</guid>
		<description>I enjoy reading your comments. I homeschool and I&#039;ve read this book. It was my best catalyst for improving my methods this year. I started homeschooling when we lived in the boonies and the creationists were pressuring our tiny school district to dumb down the biology. I&#039;ve done a lot of history over the years, but only in the last few have I really tackled evolution (the books geared to kids are pretty minimal when compared to the glut of creationist dreck). My youngest and last homeschooler will read something with me next year - Darwin, Dawkins, Carroll - I&#039;m not sure. I&#039;ve got them all from the library and I&#039;ll decide this month. I appreciate following your thoughts on this book. Thanks for sharing</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I enjoy reading your comments. I homeschool and I&#8217;ve read this book. It was my best catalyst for improving my methods this year. I started homeschooling when we lived in the boonies and the creationists were pressuring our tiny school district to dumb down the biology. I&#8217;ve done a lot of history over the years, but only in the last few have I really tackled evolution (the books geared to kids are pretty minimal when compared to the glut of creationist dreck). My youngest and last homeschooler will read something with me next year &#8211; Darwin, Dawkins, Carroll &#8211; I&#8217;m not sure. I&#8217;ve got them all from the library and I&#8217;ll decide this month. I appreciate following your thoughts on this book. Thanks for sharing</p>
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		<title>By: Elemenope</title>
		<link>http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/10/02/life-among-conservative-christian-homeschoolers-part-2/#comment-65034</link>
		<dc:creator>Elemenope</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Oct 2009 21:47:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://unreasonablefaith.com/?p=7146#comment-65034</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;If they accept that a nation has the right to legislate education at all, then they must accept that the state has the right to set the guidelines on what defines an education and what the minimum standards of an education are…otherwise any given school can teach zero and take the tax money.&lt;/i&gt;

Uh, no.

Let&#039;s say a government says &quot;everyone must get an education!&quot;. Fine, first principles. As I said, silly and redundant, but whatever; makes people feel good.

Then a government may say, &quot;every school &lt;i&gt;run by the government&lt;/i&gt; must meet certain criteria!&quot; No problem. 

What the government cannot ethically say is &quot;everyone must [[either] attend government-run schools! [or] everyone must follow the criteria we have laid out for our government-run schools!]&quot;.

They can do the first (symbolic) thing without necessarily implying the third one follows logically. They can do the second likewise without necessarily implying the third.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>If they accept that a nation has the right to legislate education at all, then they must accept that the state has the right to set the guidelines on what defines an education and what the minimum standards of an education are…otherwise any given school can teach zero and take the tax money.</i></p>
<p>Uh, no.</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s say a government says &#8220;everyone must get an education!&#8221;. Fine, first principles. As I said, silly and redundant, but whatever; makes people feel good.</p>
<p>Then a government may say, &#8220;every school <i>run by the government</i> must meet certain criteria!&#8221; No problem. </p>
<p>What the government cannot ethically say is &#8220;everyone must [[either] attend government-run schools! [or] everyone must follow the criteria we have laid out for our government-run schools!]&#8221;.</p>
<p>They can do the first (symbolic) thing without necessarily implying the third one follows logically. They can do the second likewise without necessarily implying the third.</p>
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		<title>By: Aor</title>
		<link>http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/10/02/life-among-conservative-christian-homeschoolers-part-2/#comment-65032</link>
		<dc:creator>Aor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Oct 2009 21:35:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://unreasonablefaith.com/?p=7146#comment-65032</guid>
		<description>So the nation has the right to say that its citizens must have an education, but does not have the right to determine what an education is... which naturally means that they don&#039;t have the right to say that such education must be &#039;non-zero&#039; so to speak.  You have no objection to goverment saying &#039;you must be educated&#039; but you balk at them saying anything at all about what that education must be.

That is a common belief in libertarians who haven&#039;t actually thought through the implications of their belief system.  If they accept that a nation has the right to legislate education at all, then they must accept that the state has the right to set the guidelines on what defines an education and what the minimum standards of an education are...otherwise any given school can teach zero and take the tax money.  

That might satisfy radical libertarians, but it sounds distinctly wishy washy to everyone else.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So the nation has the right to say that its citizens must have an education, but does not have the right to determine what an education is&#8230; which naturally means that they don&#8217;t have the right to say that such education must be &#8216;non-zero&#8217; so to speak.  You have no objection to goverment saying &#8216;you must be educated&#8217; but you balk at them saying anything at all about what that education must be.</p>
<p>That is a common belief in libertarians who haven&#8217;t actually thought through the implications of their belief system.  If they accept that a nation has the right to legislate education at all, then they must accept that the state has the right to set the guidelines on what defines an education and what the minimum standards of an education are&#8230;otherwise any given school can teach zero and take the tax money.  </p>
<p>That might satisfy radical libertarians, but it sounds distinctly wishy washy to everyone else.</p>
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		<title>By: LRA</title>
		<link>http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/10/02/life-among-conservative-christian-homeschoolers-part-2/#comment-65031</link>
		<dc:creator>LRA</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Oct 2009 21:33:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://unreasonablefaith.com/?p=7146#comment-65031</guid>
		<description>JonJon, I think you are confused. I&#039;m saying that experts in science determine science curriculum, experts in history determine history curriculum, experts in math determine math curriculum, etc. I don&#039;t know what you mean by &quot;undue emphasis.&quot; It&#039;s not like I&#039;m saying that experts in science determine English curriculum. That would be silly since the proper people to determine English curriculum, imo, are the experts in English. In our society the experts are the scholars. It is they who have spent the most time studying and understanding the material, so it is they who should get the say in what gets taught in their respective fields.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JonJon, I think you are confused. I&#8217;m saying that experts in science determine science curriculum, experts in history determine history curriculum, experts in math determine math curriculum, etc. I don&#8217;t know what you mean by &#8220;undue emphasis.&#8221; It&#8217;s not like I&#8217;m saying that experts in science determine English curriculum. That would be silly since the proper people to determine English curriculum, imo, are the experts in English. In our society the experts are the scholars. It is they who have spent the most time studying and understanding the material, so it is they who should get the say in what gets taught in their respective fields.</p>
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		<title>By: Elemenope</title>
		<link>http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/10/02/life-among-conservative-christian-homeschoolers-part-2/#comment-65026</link>
		<dc:creator>Elemenope</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Oct 2009 21:12:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://unreasonablefaith.com/?p=7146#comment-65026</guid>
		<description>People have every right to get together and come to general agreement about what they would like to teach, but they do not have the right to force others to follow their program. This is the basic difference between consensus and coercion, which I thought I expressed clearly, but apparently not clearly enough.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>People have every right to get together and come to general agreement about what they would like to teach, but they do not have the right to force others to follow their program. This is the basic difference between consensus and coercion, which I thought I expressed clearly, but apparently not clearly enough.</p>
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		<title>By: Aor</title>
		<link>http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/10/02/life-among-conservative-christian-homeschoolers-part-2/#comment-65023</link>
		<dc:creator>Aor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Oct 2009 20:57:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://unreasonablefaith.com/?p=7146#comment-65023</guid>
		<description>Again you take a position that contradicts your other positions.  If nobody has the authority to dictate to others what an education should or should not contain, then nobody has the authority to dictate that their education should contain anything.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Again you take a position that contradicts your other positions.  If nobody has the authority to dictate to others what an education should or should not contain, then nobody has the authority to dictate that their education should contain anything.</p>
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		<title>By: Elemenope</title>
		<link>http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/10/02/life-among-conservative-christian-homeschoolers-part-2/#comment-65020</link>
		<dc:creator>Elemenope</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Oct 2009 20:38:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://unreasonablefaith.com/?p=7146#comment-65020</guid>
		<description>Personally, I have no problem with there being a general requirement to be educated. But in my mind, this is somewhat akin to creating a general requirement to breathe air. By existing, by merely observing people and situations, people learn a great deal, such as how to speak their native language.

What I do have a problem with is a person or group of people arrogating the &lt;i&gt;authority to dictate to others&lt;/i&gt; what an education should or should not contain. Society is free to come to a majoritarian consensus about what should or should not be taught, and these decisions ought to be reflected in whatever curriculum exists in the government-run school system. But society is not free to compel people to agree with its dictates beyond requiring people to directly harm one another or their property, and hence there needs to be a right to take one&#039;s ball and go home.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Personally, I have no problem with there being a general requirement to be educated. But in my mind, this is somewhat akin to creating a general requirement to breathe air. By existing, by merely observing people and situations, people learn a great deal, such as how to speak their native language.</p>
<p>What I do have a problem with is a person or group of people arrogating the <i>authority to dictate to others</i> what an education should or should not contain. Society is free to come to a majoritarian consensus about what should or should not be taught, and these decisions ought to be reflected in whatever curriculum exists in the government-run school system. But society is not free to compel people to agree with its dictates beyond requiring people to directly harm one another or their property, and hence there needs to be a right to take one&#8217;s ball and go home.</p>
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		<title>By: Aor</title>
		<link>http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/10/02/life-among-conservative-christian-homeschoolers-part-2/#comment-65015</link>
		<dc:creator>Aor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Oct 2009 20:31:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://unreasonablefaith.com/?p=7146#comment-65015</guid>
		<description>So you have no problem with a politician forcing you to get your children educated, only with forcing them to be educated in any given topic?
What if someone thinks a proper education is no education at all?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So you have no problem with a politician forcing you to get your children educated, only with forcing them to be educated in any given topic?<br />
What if someone thinks a proper education is no education at all?</p>
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		<title>By: Elemenope</title>
		<link>http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/10/02/life-among-conservative-christian-homeschoolers-part-2/#comment-64982</link>
		<dc:creator>Elemenope</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Oct 2009 18:00:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://unreasonablefaith.com/?p=7146#comment-64982</guid>
		<description>Yes, Aor, but the argument is about the content of that education.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, Aor, but the argument is about the content of that education.</p>
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		<title>By: Aor</title>
		<link>http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/10/02/life-among-conservative-christian-homeschoolers-part-2/#comment-64980</link>
		<dc:creator>Aor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Oct 2009 17:52:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://unreasonablefaith.com/?p=7146#comment-64980</guid>
		<description>Classic nirvana fallacy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Classic nirvana fallacy.</p>
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		<title>By: Aor</title>
		<link>http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/10/02/life-among-conservative-christian-homeschoolers-part-2/#comment-64979</link>
		<dc:creator>Aor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Oct 2009 17:47:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://unreasonablefaith.com/?p=7146#comment-64979</guid>
		<description>The very fact that they have to be educated is mandated by legislation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The very fact that they have to be educated is mandated by legislation.</p>
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		<title>By: Daily Digest for October 3rd &#171; Bridget K McKinney</title>
		<link>http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/10/02/life-among-conservative-christian-homeschoolers-part-2/#comment-64946</link>
		<dc:creator>Daily Digest for October 3rd &#171; Bridget K McKinney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Oct 2009 09:35:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://unreasonablefaith.com/?p=7146#comment-64946</guid>
		<description>[...] Shared Life Among Conservative Christian Homeschoolers (Part 2) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Shared Life Among Conservative Christian Homeschoolers (Part 2) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Jabster</title>
		<link>http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/10/02/life-among-conservative-christian-homeschoolers-part-2/#comment-64935</link>
		<dc:creator>Jabster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Oct 2009 08:20:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://unreasonablefaith.com/?p=7146#comment-64935</guid>
		<description>@JonJon

I agree that almost any expert will have some degree of bias towards their respective field but the alternative seems to be to choose someone who has no interest or understanding of what they&#039;re mandating children should learn and may still be biased against an area of study. I know which version I prefer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@JonJon</p>
<p>I agree that almost any expert will have some degree of bias towards their respective field but the alternative seems to be to choose someone who has no interest or understanding of what they&#8217;re mandating children should learn and may still be biased against an area of study. I know which version I prefer.</p>
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