Christopher Hitches & Stephen Fry decimate their opponents (Archbishop John Onaiyeka & Ann Widdecombe MP) in this debate about Catholicism. Hitchens & Fry did a wonderful job showing the moral bankruptcy of Catholicism and that it is not a force for good in the world.
The rest of the videos are after the break.
At the beginning of the debate, the numbers were:
Motion: The Catholic Church is a force for good in the world.
For: 678
Against: 1,102
Undecided 346
At the end of the debate, the numbers were:
For: 268
Against: 1,876
Undecided: 34
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26 Comments
I think I shall have to go into geek mode to describe that one: PWNED! All ur debates r belong 2 us!
“Decimate” is quite right. Fry was his usual fantastic, classy self, coming off not as an aggressor but a thoroughly thoughtful man who simply knew what he was talking about. Hitchens was rather more aggressive, going right for the jugular and showing an understandable disdain for the church and his opponents’ tactics. John Onaiyeka was simply bossy, preachy and dogmatic, doing nothing but alienating anyone not completely indoctrinated in his own faith, and Anne Widdecome was nothing short of a quisling. Terrible show by her. “Oh you would have to bring up the sex abuse and the condoms wouldn’t you?” Well, yeah, those are rather important ways in which the church is NOT a force for good in the world. You can’t dismiss facts just because you are tired of hearing them.
This goes a step beyond decimation, which would’ve only harmed 1/10th the population. Such a huge turnaround in opinions by the end of the show was a near genocide.
6:49 – last video
“I still have not seen how they have, in any way shown how the catholic church is not a force for good”
Words fail me.
And then he used the usual defense of complaining that the other side attack not the catholic positions on condoms and homosexuality but the way the media presents the catholic position (implying that this representation is inaccurate) and yet he gave up the perfect opportunity to educate the audience and tell them what is the true (and obviously good and just) position of the church. I wonder why.
I have so much to say, but I will keep it brief. The 10.? percent of the worlds religion is not just catholic, it is all christian religions and also the jewish. The largest religion in the world is islam. The literal (physical) meaning of go forth and multiply is go have babies. The spiritual meaning is to impregnate others minds with wisdom to reach spiritual enlightenment. Therefore, millions of people’s lives can be saved, sexually transmitted diseases can be decreased significantly, and poverty will decrease significantly with the use of contraceptives.
The dogma, traditions, and rituals of christianity, which I am a christian, does not help all people. It gives to and helps those they deem worthy of thier help. The gays or those who support any that do not follow the christian faith’s doctrine are not embraced and helped. The christian faith ( Jesus’ teaching ) demand that all are loved and helped. Jesus walked among the night people not with judgement and force, but with love and wisdom that those who hear him want what he is saying. The ultimate example of letting others see the peace within him and want it for themselves.
Living in the U.S.A. with a 1st amendment of freedom of religion that no religion be established within our federal government I see christianity tearing our country apart. Those of the christian faith are trying to force the church’s doctrine on all of the diverse races, faiths, and cultures that make up our country and has from the very begining. This has caused hate, racism, division, chaos, and fear. It has spawned physical harm to some and threats to others. This includes our elected president. The church has caused many to fear, hate, and go to war while claiming to be christians. Jesus taught tolerance yet, the church doesnt practice it or teach it. It interferes with governments, nations, and those who are of different faiths. Religious doctrine ( law ) belongs in the church and it’s followers. Those who want to belong to the church will go to them. Being a force and forcing religion upon others will chase many practicing and those seeking away.
Hot damn, a Christian I could really like! Well said, Melody.
They do happen.
The largest religion is NOT Islam. Islam maybe the largest growing, I do not know that.
Christianity is the largest religion.
[Source: http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html
I don’t think that “debate” is the correct word. “Slaughter the competition and salt the earth from whence they came” is a more accurate title.
Everyone seems to have ignored the facts that the church is a dogmatic political organization and that its core beliefs are based on a lie. Not that the philosophy attributed to a man we know as Jesus Christ is a lie (it is among the highest ideals a person can aspire to), but that the man was, and ostensibly still is, a deity. As Thomas Paine would say, once one has prepared one’s mind to accept this fallacy, all other moral issues are inconsequential.
In that the basis of it’s claim of authority is based on the acceptance of this lie, the church has acted throughout its history as was described by Hitchens in his comments on the first three of the ten commandments — that you must love and obey the church (not necessarily God), or suffer the consequences. This “love the church and all it does, or be cast out,” (or much, much worse) dictum has been used to cover innumerable crimes against humanity, large and small.
I’m also surprised that no one mentioned the institutional dishonesty and criminal complicity of the entire organization in covering up and enabling the endemic and ubiquitous child molestations committed by it’s clergy (as opposed to the crimes of those actually doing the molesting).
Not only are their core beliefs based on a lie, they created the lie!
And this just in, in support of my comment, above:
Experts: Bishops covered up priests’ child abuse.
The Associated Press
Thursday, November 26, 2009; 6:12 PM
DUBLIN — Roman Catholic Church leaders in Dublin spent decades sheltering child-abusing priests from the law and most fellow clerics turned a blind eye, an investigation ordered by Ireland’s government concluded Thursday.
Link:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/11/26/AR2009112600992.html?hpid=moreheadlines
In addition:
“The inquiry into sex abuse by Catholic priests in Ireland has disclosed that the Vatican ignored formal requests for information.”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8382010.stm
So from the very top to the very bottom, the abuse of children was not only tolerated but purposefully hidden from investigation, even decades after it happened. This entity called the Catholic Church cannot wash its hands of this by blaming a few bad eggs or a wayward administration long gone. The hierarchy accepted it then and still tries to obfuscate the truth now. To call the church as a whole a paedophile ring would not be hyperbole.
I was disappointed by this. I was hoping there’d be some back and forth between the two sides and Christopher Hitchens hardly said anything at all.
Well, it was still entertaining.
FYI, the YouTube videos are severely edited. The full debate is nearly 2 hours and can be found at http://www.intelligencesquared.com/iq2-video/2009/catholic-church?
I think it’s well worth watching Stephen Fry’s entire 20 minute discourse. It’s brilliant.
Yeah I saw this a few weeks ago.. Maybe it was his accent but John Onaiyeka really didn’t make much sense to me. Ann Widdecombe’s voice is just so annoying to listen to about about 5 minutes.
She really didn’t help herself with the whole “Oh you would bring up condoms in Africa and child-abuse cover-ups, wouldn’t you?” stance.
I mean, the title of the debate is a bit of a giveaway. If you’re looking at the balance of the Catholic church’s deeds, one would think that the millions of deaths and hundreds of thousands of ruined lives which they’ve directly caused would be… I don’t know… Relevent to the debate, maybe?
” Ann Widdecombe’s voice is just so annoying to listen to about about 5 minutes.”
Yeah, my wife commented that she sounded exactly like the Monty Pythons when they played women.
“Yeah, my wife commented that she sounded exactly like the Monty Pythons when they played women.”
I’m just waiting for “I got spam.”
Can’t stand to listen to it, hurts my ears. At least it was softer voice with Monty Python.
Not a good combination in my opinion, the catholics have two bit incoherent speakers which I had trouble to follow (Besides the fact that they totally dismissed the child abuse and condoms, as if they would be dismissable) and against-team had two that you could actually understand with ease (to the ears.) . Not that I would be rooting for catholics, but they could think a bit before they send speakers to the stand.
I think the question here should have been “does the Catholic Church do more good or harm?” for, as with any individual, group, institution, etc., the church had good and bad points, had made good and bad choices, and has in fact done good an harm around the world. Though I don’t claim to know the entire influence of the Catholic Church on the world as a whole, I can say with certainty that, at present, it is perpetrating more harm in the United States than good. This institution has fought against the civil liberties of gays and lesbians n the U.S. It has use the pulpit to propagandize and politicize it’s religious position. Sadly, the church has gone so far as to as to use extortionist techniques against the government in D.C., threatening to remove aid it provides to countless social services (particularly those that assist the homeless) if the city passes a measure allowing same-sex marriage. What kind of holy, infallible, spreader-of-good makes such threats?
I loved Stephen Frys ending statement. Perfectly decimated all arguments of the opponents.
“Homosexuality is not just a form of sex, it is a form of love and it deserves our respect for that reason.”-Hitchens
Hitchens surprises me every time he debates…he is awesome.
why do we seem to have less of these kinds of debates in the US than in Europe?
I assume this question is rhetorical….
The archbishop was in way over his head. Just once I would like to see an intelligent argument from a theist that does not rely on ignoring the arguments by their opponents. I wonder how much longer religion will continue to be valid in our society. Sometimes it seems like religion is dying in the world. It is giving its dying gasp, which unfortunately is still harming a lot of people.