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29 Comments
Yup. Generally solid advice.
Is it just me, or does DF’s avatar look a heck of a lot like the guy in this video?
It’s just you. And it’s not me.
Haha, I know, and apparently it is just me. Still, I got a kick out of it.
You’ll know it’s me when it starts out “LIVE, from LAS VEGAS, IIIIIIT’SSSSSSSS…
DANIEL FREAKING FLORIEN!!!”
[cue women screaming and fainting]
What? Delusions of grandeur, you say? ;)
That’s probably the most level-headed approach I’ve heard.
Debating with fundagelicals that disregard science is pointless, IMO.
^ +1, but I insist on trying anyway for some reason – I must be a masochist.
Argue like the religious do. If they say they are going to hate the sin, love the sinner, then take them at their word, even after they use the argument that you have no morals. Don’t use scientific fact; argue about fiction instead. If they can’t handle your argument, that’s your fault, not theirs.
Yeah, I’m gonna do that.
I’m all for being civil and not engaging in ad hominems, but why should we neglect our best arguments?
“Hate the sin, love the sinner”
Is any other such blatant lie repeated more often with more false sincerity, I wonder?
I’m not a racist, some of my best friends are black, but …
With all due respect to the right honourable gentlemen …
We should debate fiction because like he said, the Bible trumps any scientist or scientific theory. Until you show them that the bible cannot be trusted, there’s no conversation going to happen on science, politics, etc.
Has anyone really been far as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
You’ve got to be kidding me. I’ve been further even more decided to use even go need to do look more as anyone can. Can you really be far even as decided half as much to use go wish for that? My guess is that when one really been far even as decided once to use even go want, it is then that he has really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like. It’s just common sense.
ROFL!
I agree. lol!
I don’t know, understanding that evolution is simple, plausible, reasonable, logical — that there is indeed a mechanism for getting complexity from simplicity — was one of the larger catapult-shots to my wall of faith. Sticking to criticism of the Bible may be the best strategy for some people, but I suspect there isn’t a One Best Way. Anti-superstition is good, but so is pro-reason. Perhaps it depends how scientifically-minded the audience is to begin with.
Perhaps it depends how scientifically-minded the audience is to begin with.
This. For people already somewhat inclined to trust what science has demonstrated, go for the evolution jugular. However, for those who do not, it really is generally pointless to bring the science.
I disagree with the common sentiment in this thread – I think this guy’s advice is good in regards to the people he’s talking about. Before accepting a different view of how the world works, religious people will need to come to the conclusion on their own that the one their current view isn’t very plausible.
If someone were to come tell me that the heliocentric model of the solar system is incorrect, it doesn’t matter how much evidence they throw my way for alternate possibilities – the first thing they have to do is give me reasons where the heliocentric model fails. Otherwise, I’ll be thinking, “Sure, great, whatever, but I already have a perfectly good model that I’m sure is right.” It’s only after I’ve rejected the current model that I’ll be open to hearing evidence for a new one.
Dan,
I hope you’re not going to try to hum the geocentrism tune. We’ve pretty much all walked out of that show a long time ago. Heliocentrism for me … until something better comes along.
Point well taken, though, about shredding the misconception before suggesting a replacement.
Generally good advise. Sometimes, though, I think the objective when arguing with believers is political, especially where women’s rights (pro-choice v. pro-life), sex education (birth control v. abstinence only), gay rights (same sex marriage) and similar issues are concerned.
Frankly, I never really cared what religious people believed until they became involved in issues that concerned me or my friends. I never took issue when viewing the ten commandments on a wall somewhere, and I could care less if someone celebrates CHRISTMAS (versus the ‘holidays’) or doesn’t celebrate Halloween. Why should I?
Still, when some fundie tries to tell me that I should say “Merry Christmas,” or that I should honor heterosexuals for whatever reason, I call bullshit.
And no, no scientist ever converted me to atheism. I did that all on my little lonesome. I used my head and thought about what made sense to me.
If I could take your point a step further, I also don’t have a goal to gain more minds to atheism. That’s a very fundie way of looking at the world. When I debate people it’s about respect and getting them to stop spreading stupid ideas. To provoke their own search. I don’t care what they choose to believe. I care about how they treat and view me. Believe what you will, but recognize that Satan is not the source of my understanding of the world.
Very well said,I like his thoughts and approach as well as his grounded in reality and experience descriptions of discussions with those of faith,and his alluding to 2 of the 3 things you never talk about in a bar politics and religion.
Danial, You are a man after my own heart. There is way to much shrillness on both side of this argument. Please take a look at my post http://2bites.com/2009/12/08/railing-against-religion/, when you get a chance; you’re definitely going onto my blogroll.
Sincerely, Rushhumble
Taking religion at bars is fun. Even more fun, having a stripper give me a lap dance as she is encouraging me to go back to church.
While his advice is solid and correct one thing however I personally found a little bewildering.
Did he change from a Christian Ministry to an atheist one? I don’t want – and never thought of it – convert someone into an Atheist. That this seems to be his goal is a bit odd (imho).
Other than that – good approach. Aside from the fact that a regular John Doe is on thin ice, when trying to argue scientifically – the in-depth knowledge simply isn’t there and I for my part would be busted when really challenged. So challenging them on their own playground is something that sure hits harder than anything else you might bring to the table.
I don’t really think about converting others to atheism either, but in a way, in a discussion or debate, as it happens to come up now and again, the goal is not to yell and scream and “agree to disagree” or maybe even dissolve the friendship, if there was one. The words and arguments you use should not make him think he’s winning the argument or that it’s just a matter of opinion. I think politics, on the other hand, is a matter of opinion, which is why not to bring it up unless you’d rather discuss politics – many people’s politics are influenced by their religious beliefs or lack of them, however, so moving that out of the way first may have a healthier resolution on the political discussions, at least you know you’re on the same level coming from two different sides, instead of on different planets.
The ultimate “goal” then, is to set them to think about what they already think is true. It’s a debate tool. I am ill-equipped to get into this type of argument as I haven’t read the bible, nor any literature really from either side. I think about it a great deal. I don’t know how an atheist can convert to a religion, unless they just never really thought about it and want the companionship. I have made every effort short of reading the bible (I get the gist) to feel there might be a god – any possible god fails to be plausible. I have opened my mind and “heart” to it, questioned, and not taken my atheism for granted, and god still doesn’t exist. No explanation is satisfactory to me.
The religious may be set up to think an atheist is X, all of science is a less plausible story made up than what they know is true. We came from monkeys? As if at any time, a human could be born to a pair of monkeys. Why are there still monkeys? You know, stuff like that. Science sounds to them like the biblical story of god sounds to us, and I’m not buying that no matter what good news they have, so it’s hard to explain to people that far behind how scientists actually know this stuff. And by hard, I mean quite impossible and frustrating to try. It won’t make them think later, and it will make them think atheists are impossible to talk any sense to as well.
This god vs. no god debate doesn’t come up much at all for me, but if it does, you should try to win and not just be the loudest, I guess he’s saying. I don’t advocate conversion or atheistic “ministry,” like “witnessing” or handing out pamphlets to people who don’t give a crap. It is good if you wanted to start your own blog or make some youtube videos, or even write a book someday if you are really on top of your stuff. Seekers need references and communities and discussions; atheists need them too, so it’s helping to deconvert the deconverting or reinforcing the already atheists and skeptics who are looking for it. People need to be armed for discussion when it does arise, so this guy’s video is not endorsing conversion via ministry, it’s just trying to meet a certain goal – creating doubt. Reducing the bad reputation atheists have is another goal. Allowing closet atheists to feel comfortable and confident by setting an example they can sociably follow is another goal, and speaking out as one more atheist voice so people don’t think we’re rare, angry loner types with “god issues” is another goal. I really doubt debating Christians like this guy says or some other way will deconvert a giant lot of them, but if it has a possibility of steering them to think, that’s a good thing.
Daniel, isn’t it a stretch to say that “atheism has opened my mind to…” Since the only thing atheism is a void of a belief and nothing more. I agree with you that not having religion in your life really opens your mind and allows you to see all the tricks and the mental games religious people play. Like the armless and legless Christian that came to speak at Adventure Christian Church here in Rocklin, CA. He claimed that we are all broken, sinners and need to re-establish our trust in god and give more time, energy and money to the cause. What a load of shit, and I only attended the event to watch this guy and see what he was really pedaling. (I was right).
I don’t know exactly what you would call it, but I don’t think it was atheism that allowed you to see more and do more, I think it was just being a good moral person. But to make the claim that it was atheism that did it, I think is wrong…but then again maybe it’s time to give more meaning to the term “atheism” and use a capital A now.
Since religious people need to cling or congregate with something, if they do begin to question their religion, see it for all of it’s man made flaws…then perhaps it’s time that the word/term Atheism is re-defined. Perhaps a church or reason and skepticism is a good idea? Some people actually need to be told how to be rational and moral without referencing a book.
Regardless, thanks for the video and keep up the good work. As a fellow atheist…or As a fellow Atheist, I learn more and more every day and what is funny is I refer to the bible more and more and know more than many Christians I speak with all the time.
There’s a log in the road. Remove the log, and the way becomes clear.
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[...] same point is made in a video I found at Unreasonable Faith. The speaker says: When debating or reaching out to a Christian, debunking the Bible itself should [...]