Ed Young is a popular preacher in many evangelical circles. The largest church in my area, for example, has him to preach whenever they can and he is a mentor to the pastor.
But now some are questioning his luxurious lifestyle:
One former staff member who says he was close to Young but wishes not to be identified, described it this way: “The lack of accountability. The lavish lifestyle that keeps increasing, while the attendance keeps decreasing.” [...]
And, like good ‘ol Benny Hinn, he has a private jet:
Young recently replaced his chief financial officer and replaced him with his personal attorney, business partner and fishing buddy, Dennis Brewer Jr.
With Brewer’s help and a complex series of business creations and transactions, Young is now jetting around the country in a French-made Falcon 50 private jet; estimated value, $8.4 million. [...]
Those who hear him preach every Sunday have never been told about the aircraft.
“The staff members are told that there is no plane, and several staff members who have actually been on the plane have denied that there is a plane,” said the former employee source.
He also makes some serious cash:
News 8 has also learned that Young’s 10,000 square foot, $1.5 million estate on Lake Grapevine is not listed on the tax rolls in his name, but rather in the name of “Palometa Revocable Trust.”
Records show that Young was paid $240,000 a year as a parsonage allowance; that’s in addition what sources say is a $1 million yearly pastor’s salary.
And on top of that, he has been creating numerous for-profit businesses based on the non-profit church:
In the past few years, Young and his attorney, Dennis Brewer Jr., have created a number of for-profit companies generating money apart from Fellowship Church, including: Creative Pastors, CreativePastors.com, Creality Enterprises, Creality Publishing, EY Publishing, Ed Young Resources and UOI Resources.
All the businesses list the fifth floor of Dennis Brewer’s law office in Las Colinas as their office address.
But the resources used to generate the profits come, in part, from the not-for-profit Fellowship Church. For example, Ed’s favorite sermons that were delivered at the church.
Young might not be breaking any laws, but as the article says, “perhaps he is violating the covenant of honesty with his congregation.”
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Young is now jetting around the country in a French-made Falcon 50 private jet; estimated value, $8.4 million.
Is “French-made” still considered scandalous in those circles?
Is “French-made” still considered scandalous in those circles?
Delicious observation!
I’m on the wrong side of this debate….
Hypocrites like this guy makes me WANT hell to be a real place.
you and me both
…So I can live there.
Given heaven has become a collective for the holier-than-thou religious wingnuts and other self-righteous pricks I’ve met, a life of fire and brimstone doesn’t sound too bad.
S’mores and barbecues everyday with Gandhi and Einstein (among the guys fundies tell me are going to hell)? Why not?
Also strippers and porn stars.
And Jews, and Rachel Maddow, and the Dalai Lama XD
I ashamed to say that I used to regularly attend this church. Back in the olden days. In Dallas.
ps Just to prove it, I know that Ed Young is the brother of the lead singer of Caedman’s Call.
Really? Even I didn’t know that, and I loved Caedmon’s Call!
And his father is the pastor of 2nd Baptist in Houston…
Ben Young.
Actually…Ben is his brother. Ed Sr. is his dad. Neither of them is any better than this one…
Actually, the church has never been in Dallas. It started as the Fellowship of Las Colinas in Irving, TX. It moved to its present location in April 1998. So…….never in Dallas, only Irving and Grapevine
I lived in Dallas and drove out to Las Colinas. BTW there is a satellite campus in Dallas– on Greenville.
Served.
Oops– It’s on Ross, not Greenville, but here’s a map of Fellowship Dallas:
http://downtown.fellowshipchurch.com/directions
Hey, are you retarted? Hell is real!!!
I agree. Hell is real! I can Testify to it. I’ve experienced Hell.
All it takes is to sit next to a Theist who wants to share the Good News with you during a long plane flight, and you too can experience Hell.
“Hey, are you re-tarted?”
No. I’ve been Tarted once, I have no need to go through it again.
But Sunny, the pipstick was so… YOU! You looked faaaabulous when you were tarted!
I swear, you loose one Bet and nobody will let you live it down.
“The staff members are told that there is no plane, and several staff members who have actually been on the plane have denied that there is a plane,” said the former employee source.
So the plane is like verses of the bible, there when you need them but cease to exist when they become too inconvenient.
Truly, the Falcon 50 works in mysterious ways.
haha. right on.
I’ve seen his face on a Billboard near Downtown Dallas. I didn’t realize that that he was another Dallas born high roller holy roller.
The only thing that is less suprising to me than a morally bankrupt minister of faith in Baptist and fundie circles is that the flocks to whom he preaches choose to disregard or disbelieve the obvious and flagrant misuse of their donations. Sympathy – none.
My sympathies always lie with the gullible over the con artists. Especially the folks who were raised to be deferential to religious authority. Until they get personally burned, it’s hard to shake off their upbringing. Folks who continue to fall for con artists are harder to sympathize with, but anyone can get taken in by a con artist once.
Religious con artists anger me more than the typical con artist, actually. Because the typical con artist usually plays on his victim’s own greed. A victim believes he’s going to get something for nothing from the con artist, and it’s his own greed that take him in. While there’s some of that that goes on with religious con artists (prosperity gospel snake-oil salesmen come to mind), a lot of them just play on their victims’ sincere desires to help other people. They think their money is going to help starving children when it’s really going to building the preacher’s new house. Or to the lease on a personal jet. Or into a new non-profit that the preacher has set up to give his kid a job. And it’s all done perfectly legally, thanks to the dubious way we handle religions-as-charitable-institutions in the US.
To be fair (if anyone here is interested) that same french made plane has made numerous trips to Haiti through Ed Young’s “Hope4Haiti” relief ministry. They flew emergency medical supplies, personnel, much needed medicines, etc into Haiti after the earthquake for which I am sure many disaster victims are very thankful for. No telling how many people directly benefited from his efforts.
Telling both sides of the story is vitally important if you are to expect any measure of credibility when you criticize.
A) Source?
B) A preacher using his personal jet to help in one particularly enormous disaster is not exactly the other side of the story when the story is about him pilfering funds to get his own personal jet. If true, it’s nice, and every little helps, but that’s not what the jet was for and the primary point is that he has no need for a jet himself. There are plenty of planes in the world, money he has raked in from people who trust him would be better spent on the supplies to help people than his own very comfortable and expensive method of one-time delivery.
How many relief supplies could be bought with that 8 million bucks?
The bible version of Jesus walked from town to town. He didn’t even own a horse.
And I’m pretty sure he only rented that donkey.
win!
Well, so has the Brazilian gov’t flown supplies to Haiti – doesn’t make it any less corrupt.
I agree – source? Some guy on the web said it is not a source.
If so, well that’s nice. It’s always nice to see multi-millionaires chip in to help when a tragedy occurs. Especially when the multi-millionaire in question earns his money through hard work and discipline as this pastor clearly has. After all, taking $1.2 million dollars in salary and parsonage allowance from a church congregation is one of the most above-board methods of becoming a multi-millionaire.
He has a quarter of a million dollar a year allowance for his house on the record. A quarter of a million for a “parsonage”. And you’re defending his purchase of a personal jet because he used it to fly aid to Haiti? Seriously John C, you really want to stick your neck out and defend a guy like this? This is the kind of thing your personal form of Christianity tolerates and excuses?
Let Ed sell his plane and give the money to the Red Cross
How much COULD have Ed Young done that he didnt?
From Rick Warren, Purpose Driven Life” author.
Speaking about his “purpose driven” success, in 2005 Warren told U.S. News and World Report, “It brought in a ton of money. The first thing we decided was that we wouldn’t let it change our lifestyle one bit.” Even after achieving notoriety and great prosperity, Warren and his family continued to live in the same home and drive the same vehicle. He said, “Next, I stopped taking a salary from the church. Then I added up all the church had paid me in the previous 25 years and I gave it back.” Living on only 10% of their income, he and his wife began to give away the rest in a type of “reverse tithing” principle.
I recently saw a story on the news about something similar. A family in the Dc area decided to live on half of what they had and to donate the rest to fighting hunger in Africa. They sold their $1.5 house and a lot of their stuff. I bet a lot of people could stand to do the same.
Most likely, Ed Young is with the Assemblies of God and not the Baptists. The AofG is where the mega-church, tent revivals (like Marjoe) and prosperity gospel first caught on. The AofG does have a long history of corrupt clergy.
I was raised a Baptist, they prefer smaller churches. I also was never exposed to prosperity gospel in my Baptist daze.
Some of the largest congregations are Baptist. Have you considered that Ed makes money from other sources, such as publishing and speaking engagements.
Ed Young by all standards is a true man of God.
If he were a true man of god, he’d donate the money he makes to those less fortunate instead of purchasing a personal jet.
He willfully reject gd’s providence(riches) to evangelise? For the bible says “Blessed are the poor, for theirs is the kingson of God”.
Matthew 5:3, ” Blessed are the poor in SPIRIT”. Talking about not being arrogant or self reliant. That we are not spiritually self sufficient. That means we cannot earn a place in God’s Kingdom that we need the grace by which Jesus Christ paid the price for.
If you quote scripture please quote the ENTIRE Scripture. Tends to twist things…
I think JC might disagree with you.
I don’t know personally, but there are two sides to every story.
http://bit.ly/cvZQkW
Not going to click it.
I just know its going to a RickRoll.
Nope. It’s 25 minutes of bullshit, excuses and lies that anybody not blinded by faith can see straight through.
I’d rather be RickRoll’d.
Religion is a business like any other, and should be taxed accordingly.
Just to make myself clear, I do not think that anything would be gained by breaking up the physical holdings of the Catholic church. Humanity would lose a great deal if all the art was sold and disappeared into private collections; few governments can bear the cost of maintaining the church’s historic architecture; and precious metal objects are worth more as antiques than the value of their metal. I don’t support Catholic doctrines, but most of the clergy live very simply. I believe pictures of the Pope’s quarters may be found online. I wonder what Ed Young’s library consists of?
Who then has the power to tax the vatican and for who?
Any sovereign government pretty much has the power to tax whoever they want within their national borders. I’m fairly certain that at least in some countries that have state-run churches that any churches that are not the state church pay taxes like everyone else.
The US could, if it changed its tax laws, levy taxes against the various Roman Catholic Church diocese here in the US. Each diocese is currently setup as a separate non-profit corporation for tax and legal purposes. The various Protestant denominations have their own similar structures for tax purposes and the various mega-churches are usually incorporated as separate non-profit companies.
Many people think that the taxing of churches is a “separation of church and state” issue. This is not so – there are many ways that the US could go about taxing churches that wouldn’t violate the establishment clause. It’s actually a tax code issue, as most churches structure themselves to conform to the status of a non-profit corporation to take advantage of a loose attitude that the US tax code has towards calling some of the things that churches do “charitable acts”.
Excellent points. Churches should earn their non-profit status with something more concrete than counseling, and should submit records of all goods and services provided every year. An occasional bake sale doesn’t cut it. If a group is only providing goods and services for people who are members of the group, that’s not a non-profit, that’s a club.
“Young might not be breaking any laws, but as the article says, “perhaps he is violating the covenant of honesty with his congregation.””
NT never protray jesus as an honest bloke.
It seems to me that if anybody should be pissed off, if the accounts are reliable (lets be honest, Brett Shipp isn’t breaking stories like he did in 2008), it should be the members of Fellowship Church. Ed Young didn’t do me any harm personally, I didn’t give money to his church. So honestly I could care less. Lets be honest, its not like you expect these guys to be any different, and then you get upset when you’re right. I’d hate to see what happens when you guys win at monopoly.
I always get upset when I see stories about con artists fleecing the gullible. Especially when the con artists are exploiting people’s natural tendency to want to help other people in need. It’s part of my innate sense of justice and fairness I suppose.
Religious con artists anger me far more than ponzi scammers or Nigerian e-mail scammers because the former take advantage of people’s good nature, while the latter are usually just exploiting greed and stupidity. Stupid greedy people getting taken to the cleaners by a scam artist makes me shake my head and wonder how people can be so stupid and greedy. Kind-hearted people getting taken advantage of by someone they think is using their money to do good things and help people less fortunate makes me incredibly angry.
Actually, I’ll bet he’s breaking some laws, too. I’m sure he’s no Kent Hovind, but I wouldn’t be surprised at all to find that what should have been taxable income mysteriously found its way into his pockets unreported.
Fc Dallas will continue to pray and love all of yall…God bless you all…
Watched the video of Ed from yesterday. There were no answers, just hedging and sarcasm. You know, I travel frequently for my company and they never ask about my family, nor suggest a private jet to make sure I am relaxed and rested for work. I don’t even get to fly first class. Since when does he get to profit from the sermons he gives at his church by using them for his own business? That is a more important question that people seem to overlook because of the focus on the jet.
In true Ed Young form- he was condescending and dismissive. No real answers. Still more secrets and evasion.
I think the biggest issue we are seeing is that this kind of money is available to pastors in the first place. When did Fellowship’s financial board decide that giving a pastor 1.2 million/yr was more important than helping the poor? Ed Young is definitely to blame, but so are the millions of other Christians that believe that Christianity is about being blessed financially and physically by God. I pity Ed Young more than anything else because he has replaced Christian Hedonism with hedonism. Obviously there is something missing in the latter.
“When did society decide that giving John M (fill in your annual salary) per year was more important than helping the poor?” My point is that there are people in the world that make 25% of what you and I make and they are saying the same things about us. Should every person be given that same salary and be forced to give the same percentage back to the church? Why do you imply that the Fellowship financial board is not helping the poor? Do you know the amounts of money FC has given to the poor as compared to Ed? Or even better, as compared to you? Some of the most influencial people in the bible were both rich and poor. The amount of money someone else makes has nothing to do about how effective they can be for the kingdom. Let’s remember that God is awake, alert, and alive. He alone knows the heart of Ed Young and is using this situation for us to rid our hearts of envy.
Why don’t you enlighten us, James and tell us how much money FC and Ed have given to the poor?
James,
First let me point out that you do, in fact, make an excellent point. I do not have a right to make the remark that Ed Young is not a Christian. I do not know the inner workings of his heart. Those are things that only God knows and I am actually glad that I do not share in those mysteries. So, let me apologize for making an accusation that I do not have the foundation to make.
Though I feel the need to apologize, my view does not change at all when regarding the fact that Ed Young appears to be grossly overpaid. If Ed Young really is paid 1.2 million a year, I think that it is not out of line to say that that is drastically excessive. I understand that there is no verse that can be directly correlated to the income that a pastor should make, but we can get a pretty good idea of what is too much. The national average is about 61k/yr and so is the DFW average (http://www.muninetguide.com/states/texas/Dallas.php).
I agree that it can be difficult to decide what it is ok for a pastor to make, but the question that the church should probably be asking is not “Is it okay for us to pay our pastor 1.2 million/yr”, but instead, “Is it right for us to pay our pastor 1.2 million/yr.” When I say that they are giving money to the pastor rather to the poor, I am referring to the fact that Ed Young could be paid an incredibly generous rate of 100k/yr and then there would be 1.1 million extra that could be used to microfinance small businesses in Africa, pay for Aids vaccines or be used to help get homeless families get off the streets.
Ed Young may spend his money in a really good way, but as we can see he has had several lavish trips to Belize. Is this wrong? I think it probably is because it goes against one of the basic human virtues that C.S. Lewis points out. That virtue is Prudence. That is the reason that it is so upsetting to everyone rather than just people in the Church. Ed Young, it appears, has not gone against Christian virtues of faith, hope and love, but on an actual societal and Christian virtue.
Mr. Holden, I appreciate what you have to say about how the Eternal is very important. It’s true. The Eternal is important, but can’t you see that the way that many Christians live their lives is very upsetting to people? There’s a hymn that says that “they will know we are Christians by our love”, but most frequently people in America see Christianity not as a beacon of love, but as a group sanctimonious misanthropes. We have to change the way that people in this country view the Church because we are the bride of Christ. We are Christ’s representation on Earth. We are called to live more humbly than our fellow man because we are called to live as Christ and that is what he did.
You have questioned what my salary is. If it truly interests you, you may reply with an email address and I will respond with my salary and the way that I spend the resources that I am a steward of. I will be open to your constructive criticism.
“The national average is about 61k/yr”
Why that 100k/yr for him?
Good point. I was just trying to keep the math simple. I don’t have a problem with a mega church pastor making 61k.
Of cause if a difference of 49k is just simple math.
John M –
Thank you for your polite and Christ-like response. We are obviously not going to agree on how much one should make. I have 6 children and there is no way I could afford to raise them on $61K per year especially if I kept in line with my current giving percentages. Paul seemed to happy about the gospel being preached in all circumstances so let’s keep praying that people will continue to get saved through all ministries and that Jesus is preached to all.
“I have 6 children and there is no way I could afford to raise them on $61K per year …”
Care to expand on exactly why you couldn’t afford them …
Assuming that $61K was my gross salary I would take home approximately $4K per month. I would start by giving $500 per month to the Church. A modest house to hold 8 people including taxes and insurance would run about $1200. We would own all our cars but the insurance runs about $350 per month. Our grocery bill including tolietries, degengents, etc would run about $800 per month. Gasoline is about 1 tank per week per car which today runs about $300 per month. That would leave us $850 left for gas heat, electricity, water & sewer, telephone, repairs, and clothes. which may be about right but what about savings, college fund, are we allowed to have TV or internet? How about any news subscriptions? Do we ever get to go out an eat? What about going to the mall? Is that allowed and where does that money come from? How about vacations? Retirement? I stand by what I said before, “I have 6 children and there is no way I could afford to raise them on $61K per year …”
$500 a month because those jet planes don’t buy themselves. And how else is a man of god going to get around.
Also, if you think it’s impossible to raise six kids on 61,000 a year, I’d like to introduce you to about 20 million or so Americans who do it on half that or less.
Ty – I didn’t realize that here were 20 million people that had 6 kids. And yes, I would love to speak with them to see how they are supporting 8 peo-people on half or less – Wait a sec……….I’ll bet they are depending on the government to pick up the slack…………..Isn’t that what the Church should be doing? Either way, let me know how to reach these thrifty people!
My grandparents did it on 1/5 of that and were not on welfare. Of course it would be hard — some luxuries would have to be foregone, but it’s certainly possible. Get a smaller mortgage. Don’t give $500 a month to support that million dollar salary your pastor has. Get rid of one car. Don’t have cable. Only eat out once a month.
Come on man, people have to figure this stuff out all the time, it’s definitely possible if you need to make it work. There are thousands of books on how to live on a hell of a lot less than $61k even with kids.
I agree it’s nice to make more money — one of my goals in life is be well-off. But it’s certainly not necessary. Heck you should have an entire theology for this stuff about how Jesus takes care of all your needs and all that crap. :)
Daniel – You say that making more money is “nice” and you feel it is OK to have a goal of being “well-off”. Now why is that? Is it only because you are not a Christian? And yet according to you, I should limit my income and live on $61K because I am a Christian? The “gospel” according to Daniel Florien is fascinating indeed!
I don’t think you should limit your income to that #, I only said it was possible. I couldn’t care less what you make, though I do think making a lot of money is at odds with what Jesus taught (though not the Bible teaches everywhere, since it teaches many different things about money depending on the author).
I guess you think Jesus was okay with rich people, maybe even think he encouraged it. We disagree. Regardless, my argument against money-making is with pastors, not the sheep who follow them.
James,
I still wonder how much his church actually spends doing the lord’s work. Is a private jet – something 90% of us do without – really necessary for that? Would it severally hamper his work if he had to go through commercial airlines, just like everybody else? Is it more important to feed him an extremely high salary than help other people with this same money?
I don’t know. I think this hurts my sense of fairness more because people are donating to the church, not him – or at least, I’d think so. Does the church need private jets? Lavish travels? Eating in fine restaurants? What about humanitarian works? When I donate to a charity, it isn’t to pay lavish lifestyles to the administrators. It’s to actually help.
It’s a bit different from, say, buying a ticket to a concert: when I go to a concert, I know the money’s going to (largely) the musician’s pockets. When I go to the theater, I know where my money’s going. Those people are upfront: they’re working for a profit. I know that. Churches are supposed to be nonprofit, aren’t they? Can you honestly say buying a private jet isn’t taking profit out of something that shouldn’t be used for profit?
As for money, I make R$62k/year, more or less. That’s roughly US$31k/year. I live extremely well with that. No, I don’t have children – because a) I don’t want to, b) I’m responsible enough to not breed beyond my financial capabilities. I see children as a very very big responsibility and rather than breed for breeding’s sake, I’d rather make dead sure I can take it before doing so.
Frankly, I feel that if you think you can’t comfortably support X children with what you earn, you shouldn’t have made them in the first place. That’s what my mother did: she’d love to have six children, but she stopped at two because she wouldn’t be able to raise six with what she earned.
(Not that it’s your case, mind, just in general.)
Doesn’t surprise me. Here in Brazil we’ve a pastor (oh, pardon, “missionary”) that does the same damn thing. Now he owns a records company, a book publishing company, and is starting his own satellite TV company. Also, he wants to build a studio and start creating biblical movies. All in the name of the Lord.
All with money he fleeces from people. He’s also on TV.
One of the most interesting things that has come from Ed Young in a while was the so called “church pirates” that he was espousing were hurting ‘The Church’ – I suppose moreso “his” church. See more at http://www.outofur.com/archives/2008/06/ed_young_jr_tak.html
I wonder who could be considered the real pirate against The Church now… where’s the booty???
One former staff member who says he was close to Young but wishes not to be identified, described it this way: “The lack of accountability. The lavish lifestyle that keeps increasing, while the attendance keeps decreasing.”
Caused by real estate or housing bubble, gd stop providing?
Guys like this make me want to embrace Christ, or at least appear that way to others who are easily preached to. You see, God has blessed him with the aptitutes and ability to talk to plain folks, to convince them to send their money to him so he can fly around in a private jet and have millions in the bank. If this dosen’t make you want to be a man of God who preaches the Word to the unwashed masses and be rewarded with more treasure a man can ever use, then you are beyond redemption.
Praise the Lord Goddamit!!
I watched the clip Ed Young defending himself to his church. More holes then answers. He admitted to renting a plane. Why does the church need to rent a personal jet for Pastor Ed to fly about the country or wherever else?
He did not address his creativepastors.com or the other business’s he owns with Dennis Brewer that sell his sermons and other Church related items for his own personal profit. That itself is an obamination! He didn’t bring it up cause he’s guilty of that. The sermons a pastor preaches at his church the church owns, not the pastor
I am a Christian and attend a local church near fellowship. Ed young is hurting the cause of Christ with his hypocrisy!
Jesus Christ died for all of us!! We are all sinners. And when can find redemption in Christ. Ed young needs to repent now.
If this story makes you disbelieve all Christianity I’m sad. Following Jesus is not a religion. Religion is empty. A true relationship with Christ doesn’t need religious practices.
John 3:16. For God so loved the world He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
While I do not have a dog in this fight, so to speak, I find it interesting that some are saying things such as (paraphrased) ‘just because some guy said it on the Internet doesn’t make it so’ and yet offer no documented support for their own accusations. No accusations or defenses can or should be made without verifiable proof. I could claim I know Ed, or even am Ed, and offer defenses, or say that I am a disgruntled former employee, and no one would know the difference without empirical evidence. Where is the evidence for either side?
I completely disagree that the church owns the sermons when its pastor preaches them there. That is not true. The pastor owns his own intellectual property. The same is true in any field. If Bill Gates spoke at a church, the church does not own what he says–Gates does. The only time the venue would own the speech/sermon is if the speaker has agreed in writing prior to the event that his/her words can be recorded, distributed, and/or sold by the venue for their own use. It is illegal to do otherwise. As a professional speaker, I know this to be fact.
I must make an apology and retraction on my previous comment. Rather than state what I did (written in haste), the clear truth is that the venue does indeed own what is recorded–but not the written copies and the intellectual material contained therein. What is legal is for the venue (church) to offer free or for cost or donation audio and/or video recordings of sermons and teachings. The church cannot offer printed copies of the sermon and does not have legal ownership of the written materials created by the pastor/speaker. For more on this topic, please see: http://www.startchurch.com/blog/view/name/pastors-do-not-own-their-own-sermons. Note: This is not a link to a website owned, operated, or contributed to by me, and if placing this link here violates rules, I sincerely apologize. Thank you!
If you look up the tail number of the jet shown in the WFAA report it is NOT registered to Fellowship Church or Ed Young and was NOT made in 2002 but 1988 as Brett Shipp reports.. I would question the accuracy of the reporters facts as well as the basis of his accusations.
It’s probably an equivalent jet shown for illustration purposes. Hardly worth writing off the whole report over.
According to the FAA’s website, the jet shown in the report (tail number N188FJ) is registered to “Fellowship Connection.” (Line 7338 as of today.)
Here is the lease agreement. Ed Young is referred to as “Mr. Edward Young, Jr. of Fellowship Church or Fellowship Connection” in section 12, page 6. (His name is Edwin, not Edward.)
From the WFAA article:
“With Brewer’s help and a complex series of business creations and transactions, Young is now jetting around the country in a French-made Falcon 50 private jet; estimated value, $8.4 million.”
“The Medill Company” (shown to be the lessee) is a Delaware statutory trust formed March 1, 2007. (You can look that up here.) This is likely one of those “complex series of business creations and transactions” referenced in the report.
Re the “2002″ reference, the jet is owned by CEF 2002 Aircraft LLC, so that’s probably where Shipp got that. It was built in 1988.
More information in these articles. (This is not my site!)
Ed Young: “No Secrets” or “No Answers”?
Young and Two Board Members Answer Critics
Florida Baptist Convention President Cross Endorses Young’s Use of Jet
I am a member at Ed’s church and live down the street from him. Despite the fact that some of the information Channel 8 reported is false, (like the size of his house or the fact that the plane is a leased and shared resource with other ministries,) it is obvious that Ed makes a good living. I am curious if someone can tell me the range of money that a pastor is allowed to make. I don’t need an actual bible verse (although it would be helpful) but maybe some sort of government issued chart that based their income on the number of members or souls or something like that. The bible verse or chart should also clearly include other professions AND should mention the maximum amount of money that each of us is allowed to give back to our churches. Until we have this baseline reference I think it is pretty “UNREASONABLE” to make these types of assertions and judgements.
What did Jesus have to say about the rich and getting into heaven? Do you think Jesus would have approved of people preaching in his name living in mansions and having private jets and mult-million dollar businesses selling the gospel?
Not that I agree with Jesus, but you do, right?
It was meant as a metaphor and shouldn’t be taken literally.
Daniel, Jesus said it was difficult for a rich man but not impossible. Paul says that with God, ALL things are possible. The point I was making is that no one seems to know the specific dollar amount each of us is allowed to make before getting in trouble. What is your limit and how much are you required to give? Do you have different amounts allowed than people that do agree with Jesus? You are confusing to me. A jet and millions of dollars in nothing to Jesus but obviously it is a significant issue for you. The condition of a heart is what everything is about and Jesus is the only one that can know it’s secrets. Focusing on being rich or being poor is just one of earth’s many distractions to keep us from know ing the truth. It is possible that Ed is wrong. It is also possible that you are…….or maybe me.
Jesus said it was as likely for a rich man to go to heaven as it was for a camel to go through the eye of a needle? Are you saying that it’s only difficult for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, not impossible?
I didn’t say it – God’s Word said it! Here are a few links if you are truly interested:
http://www.biblicalhebrew.com/nt/camelneedle.htm
http://www.creationtips.com/eye_of_needle.html
http://www.ensignmessage.com/archives/needle.html
The eye of the needle was a small passage in the wall of a city. About 4-5 feet tall. a camel would have to crawl through on it’s stomache. Awkward uncomfortable and hard yes. Not impossible.
And what up with that Jesus of yours telling the rich man to sell all his possessions and follow him? And also requiring his disciples to do the same? Oh, and what up with Ananias and Sapphira selling their land and bringing the proceeds to the church? James, it seems to me that your pastor isn’t quite living out that gospel message. But hey, far be it from me to try to dissuade you from being fleeced.
I can’t judge Ed cause I don’t know his heart and I don’t know how much he has given in compared to what he has. However, since you have chimed in I will congratulate you on giving up everything that you have……………Clearly you feel that these 2 scripture references are applicable so you are a better person than I………………Stop staring at wealth and focus on what is really important – eternal things.
Nice deflection–now how about responding to why your pastor, who allegedly is a follower of this Jesus fellow and subscribes to the apostles’ interpretation of his teachings has collected conspicuous wealth?
Baseline reference: Pay of an ox with double honour like the good old book says.
ED YOUNG AND HIS HALF TRUTH:
That aircraft is owned by Medill Corporation. It traces back to Ed Young as the principal through several other entities. The church is making the lease purchase payment on the aircraft. He only uses the lease word on stage and not purchase(evasive and deceitful). Ed paid $11.4 Million via a lease with a $1.00 Residual Buy Out for the aircraft at the end of the lease. He then wrapped the transaction in a “shell game” lease company that he owns set up as a Delaware Trust based in Texas. At the end of the lease, the congregation just bought Ed a jet. The only problem is N188FJ is a 1988 Model Falcon 50 that is now worth no more than 4.5 Million(Not the $8.4 Million the news reported. The news reported it as a 2002 Model and that is incorrect. Medill Corporation makes the payment to GE Capital each month. Is this the best use of the Lord’s money? The pilots that work for Brad Harris at Dallas Jet International(The management company for the jet based at Alliance Airport) that crew the aircraft have always known the aircraft is a secret. Alliance is highly secure and private compared to the other airports in this part of North Texas. Just call Brad Harris to confirm. He will give you the same half truth as Ed did on stage on who owns the aircraft. It is no secret that it is a secret and always has been. Here is the registration straight from the FAA Records:
Record 1 of 1 found
AIRCRAFT IDENTIFICATION / STATUS
Make: FALCON Year of Delivery: 1989 Airport: AFW – KAFW – Ft. Worth Alliance Airport
Ft. Worth – TX – United States
Model: 50 Year of Manufacture: 1988 Serial Number: 50-188 Alt Ser#:
Registration Number: N188FJ Prev Reg#: XA-ALA Status: Not for Sale Purchase Date: 4/4/2001
Life Cycle: In Operation Previously Owned: Yes Ownership Type: Wholly Owned
Currently On Lease Last Change: 2/3/2009
COMPANY/CONTACT
Company Contact
Owner/Lessor – General Electric Capital Corporation
DBA GE Corporate Aircraft Finance
10 Riverview Drive
Danbury, CT 06810 United States
http://www.gecorporateaircraft.com
Office: 203-749-6000
Mr. Scott F. Forsberg
Manager, Aircraft Remarketing
scott.forsberg@ge.com
Office: 203-749-6640
Lessee – Medill Company/ Ed Young
TX United States
Ms. Ann R. Duckart
Vice President Tracy M Lamb Vice President
Aircraft Management Company – Dallas Jet International, LP
5605 N. MacArthur Blvd. Suite 640
Irving, TX 75038 United States
info@dallasjet.com
http://www.dallasjet.com
Office: 972-812-7525
Fax: 972-812-7527
Mr. Brad Harris
President & CEO
bharris@dallasjet.com
Office: 972-812-7525
Fax: 817-853-5188
Registered as Owner – CEF 2002 Aircraft, LLC
United States
Hutson T. W
President
Hangar: 503-329-5901
This aircraft will be owned by ED YOUNG’S “SHELL” company, Medill for $1.00 at the end of the lease. ALL COMPLIMENTS OF THE FELLOWSHIP CHURCH. The aircraft costs the church over $1,000,000.00 per year currently with insurance, pilots, hangar, and repairs. Hmmm, now that’s not exactly as Ed put it on stage. There is no transparency at Fellowship because Ed owns the church and he won’t allow it. That is specifically against the way the New Testament insists that a church should be structured. It should not be owned by the Pastor. A church is owned by the membership but NOT AT ED YOUNG’S CHURCH. IT IS ALL SETUP WRONG AND IT IS FOR PROFIT BUSINESS THAT HE HAS CONVINCED HIMSELF IS SET UP CORRECTLY. LET ME KNOW HOW THAT IS WORKING FOR FELLOWSHIP CHURCH. WHAT A TURN OFF FOR SOMEONE LOOKING TO FIND CHRIST. ALL OVER A STUPID AIRPLANE AND A BIG HOUSE. ED YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED!
“That is specifically against the way the New Testament insists that a church should be structured. It should not be owned by the Pastor. A church is owned by the membership”
The problem is Jim, the “Church” (ekklessia/ecclessia) is an unseen spiritual “house” (whose house we are, Heb 3:6). God does not dwell in “temples made with human hands” as scripture says since “we, our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit”. He says regarding His temple (us), “I will walk in them” (2 Cor 6:16). This is a spiritual fulfillment of the physical, OT tabernacle in the wilderness “pattern”. There is no pattern for a “church” like you are describing found in the NT, the early “churches” were mostly house churches, fellowships in the spirit (see Col 4:15). The word “pastor” is not even found in the original language. There were certainly men (and women) who were “overseers”, ie mature “fathers in the faith” but these were spiritual men betrothed to Christ who ruled and reigned within them (Col 1:27). Christ was their (only) Head, they were not subject to some corporate-like “board” or “members”, that’s all a religious, man made thing, is not from the Lord and so is unfruitful.
The “church” is not a physical building, is not “owned” by anyone (certainly not the members) is not a corporate “structure” at all but is Christ’s alone and He knows those who (truly) belong to Him. It’s time to discard the religious thinking, leave the disingenious behind for the authentic, the world has had well enough of “religion” which, btw is not what Christ offers, not even close.
The Lord is shaking everything that can be shaken so that only the eternal, that which is of the spiritual realm, that which is of Him remains in us. (Heb 12:27 paraphrased). And He doesn’t need us to point fingers at those who have fallen, gotten caught up in the excesses, etc they will certainly learn their lessons through the pain of the consequences, etc. He doesn’t need us to “shame” anyone. So let’s stop playing church and let Him be who He is…in us. That’s the real gospel message, Christ in you the mystery of the ages as Paul revelated. It’s time to go higher, to soar in the spirit (to use a flying expression, ha).
All the best.
Errh…Bob, not Jim, my bad sorry.
I totally agree with what you have said and appreciate the clarification. I should have left that out of the blog. However, the Church or Non Profit Entity which is on file at the State of Texas is what I was referring to in the flesh and I am not as versed in the bible as you are. My point is that Ed should be transparent with the sheep. My only interest is to clarify the misinformation on the news story and correct EY’s half truth so that the truth is known. I am not pointing fingers. I pray for Ed Young everyday. He has a platform like no other. Imagine if he sold the aircraft and got honest with everyone. He could be the first “mega-church pastor to reveal all and come correct. I would attend that church in a heartbeat. We as followers cannot make an educated decision without being presented with the truth. I am in the aviation business and the EY secret aircraft has bothered my for a long time. I used to attend Fellowship and left for the lack of accountability. There is no question that I have spent too much time on this and you are correct in saying God deals with each one of us and I don’t wish anything bad on EY. I wish he would tell the church the truth. It pains me to see money go out the window when there are ministries that need it to get out there and touch the lost. Millions of dollars are coming out of the offering plate for the aircraft while EY tells the congregation that church is nearly bankrupt. This is wrong on every level. I think Ed’s heart is good and he means well. I am sure God had this under control before I got involved. I will leave it at that. Have a good week.
Hey Bob,
When I type in tht registration number on http://www.faa.gov it only tracks it back to the registered owner as CEF 2002 Aircraft LLC. Where do you get all the other information about Medill Company and GE Captiol Corp from http://www.faa.gov?
Josh
All of the other information I obtained is on a “paid” subscription site for people in the aviation business. It costs over a thousand dollars a month. I am in the aviation business. I wish the reporter would have consulted someone with this program so his facts were straight before he aired the story. There was misinformation in the story. CEF 2002 is a portfolio LLC that is set up by GE Capital and is standard procedure for tax purposes and FAA complience. The main point of the story was correct in that Ed Young does not want any questions from the congregation about his accounting practices, he proved that on stage with his blanket “no apology” statement. The church I go to has the weekly revenue inside the bulletin every Sunday as it should be and everyone knows what the preacher’s annual salary is. Anything less is a secret. All of this lavish asset base looks bad and causes problems just like the one we are talking about. Self will run riot.
Thank you for your posts, Bob – they make fascinating reading.
Bob Jamison – please contact me…I have a few questions for you if you don’t mind…fbcjaxwatchdog@gmail.com.
This Ed Young example is simply an archetype of out-of-control egotistical preachers who try to live a James Bond fly-to-the-Bahamas secret life (i.e. Copeland’s 10% personal-use of their ego-jet, a Citation X. To wit:
Yawning Over Potemkin Zombieland
By Robert Winkler Burke
Of inthatdayteachings.com
Copyright 2/16/10
Well then, it’s agreed:
There are just no prophets today,
Warning us about,
Potemkin Zombieland. Hurray!
Hurray! We’re okay,
With hamster pipe walk-left-walk-right preachers!
They don’t mesmerize us,
Not according to our liberal school teachers!
No, the wing tanks are full,
On the jets of our preacher and politico class!
We need discern nothing,
Enlightened thought is just a worrisome morass!
Even if one of us in thinking,
Were to succeed,
Not one, but all need enlightening,
To work. Agreed?
So we’re ever so happy,
With Potemkin Zombieland!
Leaders: rich, plebes: broke,
Enslaved America is so grand!
That’s what some preachers and politicians,
Do, if not say, by their action!
Never mind their blinding us to all that,
Our one job: Their satisfaction!
Never mind Western Enlightenments’ tragic view,
Check and verify against each man’s sin,
We embrace mystic, therapeutic tyranny,
Our lives: dust, that masters live: golden!
It’s the new all-for-one,
And the new one-for-all,
Feudal lords over us,
Come now, lords of cabal!
Actually, we need to be,
More primitive, more easy-to-herd,
More easy-to-direct gerbils!
More nadir! Our zenith leaders’ word!
We need faux James Bond leaders and preachers,
Jetting to elite vacation spots!
With fake licenses to steal our monies and lives,
No consequences, no harms, no blots!
Except when God’s true man on the scene,
Assuredly says, My name is Bond, James Bond,
The looks on those Goldfinger faces,
We’ll see, when In That Day comes around!
I am a member of Fellowship Church, and I find it appalling that people are so quick to judge. Who are we to judge? Abraham was a man of God, he was rich beyond measure, yet God still chose him to be a man to carry his word.
We don’t know all the facts, but Ed Young has been blessed by God and that is the only explanation for his successes and amazing ability to reach out to people.
Critical Thinking Fail.
I was at service this week and heard about ONE of the thousands of pastors that attended the C3 conference last week. Through Ed’s ministry and leading this pastor now has over 6000 people attending church on a weekly basis in Florida. ( I guess we better find out how much this guy makes…..it might be more than I make AND being in Florida he may own a boat!) Again, there were THOUSANDS that attended and were fed this last week. There is no telling how many are being reached through Ed Young’s ministry. I guess people forget about all of the influencial people that had money in the bible…..Check this out:
http://ezinearticles.com/?Wealth-and-Abundance-in-the-Bible&id=724325
I still think the main problem here is either jelously or envy…… People posting negative comments here either lust after riches or they just simply don’t think others should have them.
Envy?
No, I envy Bill Gates, who has the intelligence and the drive to be one of the richest men in the world without having to resort to harping to the desperate and the needy (and at least Windows and Microsoft actually exist!).
I envy Steve Jobs. I envy Hewlett and Packard and Dell. I envy whoever founded IBM, more than a century ago. I envy Nestlé’s founder, and Coca-Cola’s.
I envy people who actually make their fortunes through hard work, creativity and intelligence, not by fleecing gullible sheep. I have no reason to. There are better people to admire and emulate out there.
Note: I tried to post this a couple of hours ago, but I wasn’t able to find it on the site. If this ends up being a double post I’m sorry.
Mr. Holden,
I would like to begin by saying that I do appreciate your loyalty to Ed Young. I don’t necessarily disagree with your statement that “there is no telling how many people are being reached through Ed Young’s ministry.” I do, however, disagree with the idea of qualifying a ministry as successful based on numbers. 6,000 is a pretty big number, but we should remember the numbers of people that Robert Tilton had in attendance or similarly Bennie Hinn. I am not drawing a direct correlation between Hinn and Tilton and Ed Young. Bennie Hinn did things such as faking the gift of prophecy and purposely lying to his congregation. I think that if the story that WFAA ran is actually true that the only thing that Ed Young is guilty of is greed.
I know that greed has a terrible connotation to it and I hope that that last comment was not too off-putting. Please, if the comment that Ed Young is greedy is upsetting, listen to the next few words that I have to say. Greed according to Merriam Webster is “a selfish and excessive desire for more of something (as money) than is needed.” I am only going off of what WFAA has said, but doesn’t a salary of 1.2 million per year and a leased jet fall under the category of excessive? I know you’re probably thinking isn’t John M’s salary excessive? Isn’t the computer that John M is using to write this very entry excessive? Well, the answer is yes. Yes these things are excessive unless I am able to find a way to use these gifts that I am given for Christ. A 7800 sq ft house and a leased jet are not exactly the typical tools for living out the gospel.
James, I want you to know that I am not writing this in order to attack Ed so I can get out some pent up jealousy. At least I hope that’s not the reason. My reason for writing this is because I think that people need to hear this. Ed Young has fallen prey to the biggest ailment to which the American church suffers . Our economic system is built on it and so we usually don’t even see a problem with it, but when there is a 1:1 or 1:2 ratio of homeless to churches in America I believe that is a problem.(http://hirr.hartsem.edu/research/fastfacts/fast_facts.html#numcong and http://www.grabstats.com/statcategorymain.asp?StatCatID=7 )
Ed Young appears to be suffering from greed in a similar way as many other pastors. I hope that the C3 conference really has helped the pastor in Florida become a better pastor and I am glad that more people are being fed; I just worry about what the people of his congregation are being fed. I know it says in the Bible that God wants us to share in his abundance, but I do not believe that he was referring to the American economy. I agree with whoever it was who said that “being rich doesn’t make it impossible to get into Heaven, it just makes it harder.” My question is: if being rich makes it so hard to get into Heaven and to truly follow Christ, why do we work so hard to make it so hard on ourselves?
Susan,
That’s the only explanation? You don’t think corruption, propaganda and the exploitation of simple minds might play a role?
Susan, it depresses me to know that many others think (for lack of a better word) the way you do. That’s not hyperbole–it really does depress me, because it thwarts progress. I want to be hopeful, but I honestly don’t know how to combat such stupefying ignorance. Perhaps that sounds mean, but I’m absolutely flabbergasted by the absence of critical thinking. Have you at least considered the possibility that a blessing by your god isn’t the “only explanation?” Or did you immediately reach that conclusion? If so, why?
I’m not expecting a reply, but maybe you’ll surprise me. Or perhaps someone else can give me some reason to remain hopeful.
Ed Young Jr. is one of those False Teachers/Wolves we are warned about over and over in the Bible.
He is using the word of God for profit.
If he can’t be straight with his congregation and his staff then it makes me wonder what else he is hiding and lying to them about.
and please don’t say that he is not a wolf/false teacher because that is exactly what he is.
Just like every other single religious leader.
Ed Young, Jr. raps U.B.U.
Everyone’s posts and responses have been great. I hope we all concentrate on finding truth everyday regardless of how much someone makes or if they fly on private jets. My hope and salvation comes from Jesus – not from Ed Young or for that matter, Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Michael Dell, etc. Paul said to be satisfied in all circumstances – rich or poor – no difference. Peace and Love to you all!
Ok people. It is not hard to concede that when your defense to the accusation that you live in a 10K sf home is that you ACTUALLY live in a 7.8K sf home, and that the church does not OWN a jet, it just LEASES a jet, materialism may well have become your Achilles heel whether you want to admit it or not. I personally believe that Pastors owe it to God, themselves and their congregations to emulate the scriptural principle that “Godliness with contentment is great gain,” and, “The love of money is the root of all evil.” I also agree with Paul that, “A workman is worthy of his hire.” As a previous pastor of 15 years, the son of a pastor, the great grandson of a pastor, the son in law of a pastor, the cousin of many high profile pastors, I have to tell you that excessive compensation with conspicuous consumption is the VAST exception and not the rule among those in full time ministry. Usually, just the opposite is the case and sadly, undercompensated ministers in churches that could do MUCH better abound. For every story of financial excess, I can probably come up with 100 cases of penny pinching, scrooge like board members and churches that choke the financial life out of many a ministry family (this was the case in Ed’s early ministry if the stories are accurate, and I have no reason to believe that they are not). Check out Fuller Sems study of Pastors and their families and how they fare financially, THEN write your little blurbs. Having said all of that, I must say that Ed Young is in danger of turning C3’s meaning into “Conspicuous Consumption Church” rather than “Creative Church Connection” if he is not careful. I say this based on his own response the the WFAA piece, not because of the piece itself.
I have attended Fellowship Church for the last 5 years and am deeply saddened by the recent turn of events and have to wonder if, like many who have gone before, success is getting to Ed. He is a 5 talent guy no doubt about it. He preaches powerful, life changing messages that bring scriptural principles and precepts to bear on the stuff of life. He approaches the work of the ministry in a fresh, culturally relevant way. Like the men of Issachar who understood the times and knew what to do, the guy can bring the word in a relevant context that people can assimilate. Frankly, unlike droves of men and women in ministry who could not preach/teach their way out of a wet paper bag, Ed brings a crystal clear approach to presenting Biblical truth and I have loved what he does for this generation of gospel calloused people. Messages like “7 Days of Sex” where he encourages MARRIED couples to be sexually intimate ONLY with each other (what a novel idea!) and denigrates/equates any extramarital sex as no better than animal copulation, and so many other powerful series have been wonderfully presented by him over the years and they have reached people that are not even close to being touched by the thousands of traditional churches in Dallas.
If I could, I would tell him how much he has meant to me, and commend him for so very much, and I would also caution him to back it up a bit, not to panic over a blip on the statistical screen as to attendance and giving, let up on his staff, don’t give in to knee jerk reactions to cautious counsel that he may have perceived as negative, but was actually for his good. I would tell him also to guard against over reacting to input that he may perceive as rebellion because of the nasty power struggles he has seen and had directed toward him in the past, but that THIS may not be THAT. Don’t lump it all together just because there a similarities. Above all I would humbly remind him “Let not the wise man boast of his wisdom or the strong man boast of his strength or the rich man boast of his riches, but let him who boasts boast about this: that he understands and knows me, that I am the LORD, who exercises kindness, justice and righteousness on earth, for in these I delight, declares the LORD.”
We need a healthy, strong, BALANCED Ed Young in 2010 and the years to come.
I also wanted to add that I encourage churches and non profits to become members of the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability (ECFA) at http://www.ecfa.org/HomePage.aspx. If a ministry is unable to join the ECFA, there is NO reason, other than being UNWILLING, that they cannot adopt the “ECFA Standards and Best Practices’” which are stringent and can be found at http://www.ecfa.org/Content/ECFABestPractices.aspx. You may remember that it was the ECFA that called nationally known Christian teacher and author, Hank Hanegraaff, and his Christian Research Institute on the carpet for misappropriation of funds and conflict of interest (see http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2003/august/6.19.html)…..sound familiar??? The ECFA sets the bar high for the way any church or non profit handles the donations of their members and contributors.
Just like evry other single religious leader?
I am a pastor of a very small oppressed WV community. After being called by God to reach out to this community with Gods message of hope. My family (wife and three children) have lived on about $10,000 per year and our retirement for the past two years. No cable TV, few meals out, new clothes ect. Our reward is not money. Our reward is knowing that God has worked thru us to transform many lives with the hope of His Son. Please do not put all religious leaders in a group. That being said, I have no reason to criticize Ed Young. Frankly I find his teaching to be solid. Who determines what a person is allowed to make? Why can successful people in other fields make millions and have private jets. But a pastor is some how limited. God blesses financially who He chooses. Ever hear of a king named David? a man after God’s own heart. He lived a pretty a wealthy life. Maybe a king named Solomon, Declared the wealthiest man to ever live. I know that ther are fakes and frauds (false teachers who have misused God as a means to gain riches). Does anyone know how much Ed gives back? I for one think we should give him the benefit of doubt. My guess is he is giving back what God has ask and more. Praise God that he is able pastor in a populated and wealthy area. Keep up the work of the kingdom Ed. There will always be those who will question your motives. Keep it real and remember your greatest reward is not the house or the jet or the even the church building. The reward is in the lives that have been eternally altered as a result of your sevice to God.
“My family (wife and three children) have lived on about $10,000 per year and our retirement for the past two years.”
I’m sorry your game of make-believe has garnered you so little.
Why do you say that I have garnered so little? I think you missed the point. As stated in the first post. my reward is not measured in $. Christianity is about the power of the love of God transforming peoples lives. That is what I invest in and where reward lies. Make believe?
Tomarrow I will take a twenty one year old young man; who was an addict living on the streets 6 months ago to purchase an automobile. He is now clean living with his parents and holding a job. This is reality. A changed life. Priceless
“As stated in the first post. my reward is not measured in $.”
But you felt you had to bring it up anyway. Why mention money, just trying to stroke your own ego? A, “Hey everybody, look at how humble I’m being!”
Just think of how much good you could do if you didn’t have to waste time stuffing bronze age mythology into someone before changing their life.
You mean the dude who sent a woman’s husband out to war so he could bed her? The same dude who waged war left and right and was proud to kill twice as many men as requested (some business about foreskins)? That David?
Yeah, I can totally see the xtian god doing that. There was that case with the engaged teenaged girl, after all…
Siberia dear, I got a chuckle out of you, wondering whatever possessed you to go back to a two month old thread and set out on an impromptu rant about King David of all people? Ha. Apparently I must have missed something. You don’t have the story quite right but that’s okay, I like you, I really do! :)
All the best…
Tell us the story, Unkie John. Pretty please.
John, human beings are creatures that are capable of viewing the body as an “other.” This is an astonishing part of our makeup! It is the main thing that distinguishes us from the animals. This capacity gives us tremendous advantages. It makes us far better able to suppress our immediate impulses. Feeling itself to be separate from the body, the mind can direct it more efficiently. On the other hand this ability creates a specific problem – the idea that we are NOT part of the body….that we are spirit in nature. To you the body is an impediment or a prison or a tomb – the feeling that, as W.B. Yeats put it, the human spirit is “fastened to a dying animal” Your idea of a “spirit” is simply a product of your brains thinking!! Dwell on this – why is life not “fair”? There is no “fairness” and there is no “point” to it all!!! That is the big secret. If there was either fairness or a point – we would see it manifested. Life is not fair.
I was bored :) And I saw a reply on the thread.
I like you too, Johnny, really :)
some have said whats the big deal he has a big church he should get more pay. I think a pastor is a calling not a business. Imagine the diffrence that the extra funds could accomplish in the church’s community. read Luke 12:18. what your actions, and finances, determine to others how much you truly rely and trust in the LORD. If GOD really wanted you to fly on a private jet, GOD would allow a heathen CEO to donate a jet, instead of squandering the money that is supposed to help “HIS” ministry, not yours, Rev. Young.
I assure you, this man doesn’t represent the all of Christianity, or any of it for that matter.
There are people out there that will use Christianity to build their wealth, and more often than not they get called on it eventually.
Question them not God.
I think I’ll go ahead and question the whole rotten edifice, thanks!
Here we go again – http://www.wfaa.com/news/investigates/Fellowship-Church-Jet-Travels-To-Exotic-Destinations-92134294.html
Matthew 19:21
Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
While America burns, the Clergy peddles their latest self-centered books, DVD’s, and CD’s conceived inside the bowels of hell. Pastors today are nothing more than crowd pleasing self-gagged prostitutes of the Internal Revenue Service under the 501c3 Tax-Exempt Code, experts in deceiving the masses all across America, and the World.
The Clergy of America are blind, they all lack knowledge; they are all mute dogs, they cannot bark; they lie around and dream, they love to sleep. They are dogs with mighty appetites; they never have enough. They are shepherds who lack understanding; they all turn to their own way, each seeks his own gain. Come, each one cries, let me get wine
let us drink our fill of beer and tomorrow will be like today, or even far better. But the Lord Almighty says, weep and wail, you shepherds; roll in the dust, you leaders of the flock. For your time to be slaughtered has come; you will fall and be shattered like fine pottery. The shepherds will have nowhere to flee, the leaders of the flock no place to escape.
The shepherds desecrate the Holy name of Jesus Christ for thirty silver coins. These hucksters peddle riches, health, prosperity, and happiness to millions of self centered greedy men and women whose tithes, and offerings they use to build their little kingdoms of greed, and for rebuilding the tower of Babel, or One World Government. Words like Repent, Hell, and Eternal Damnation are the dinosaurs of contemporary Christianity hidden away in the bowels of their IRS 501c3 Tax-Exempt Status.
Consequently, the wicked have taken over America, while nominal wimpy Christians are too preoccupied with their feelings, worshiping the trinity of self, composed of “ME, MYSELF, and I” in search for a Jesus that is more in touch with their feelings, and for a Jesus that is more harmonious with their perversions. They don’t see Jesus as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords; they see Jesus as the Wimp of Wimps and Dumb of Dumbs. These so-called wimpy Christians talk the talk, but they do not walk the walk. They know all the songs, and the Christian lingo, but they wobble and fall down when they are supposed to stand up against the wicked, therefore they are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked, and separated from the love of Christ.
Now Americans are reaping the bitter fruits of godlessness after sowing immorality for the last sixty-three years. Murderers can abort, and euthanize legally, couples can divorce legally, sodomites can sodomize and marry legally, and the immoral losers of America have only excuses, excuses, and nothing but excuses. We cannot win the war on terror in the Middle East. We cannot fix the national debt and the poor state of the economy. We cannot fix the rampant unemployment. We cannot stop the murders in the inner cities. We cannot stop the violence in public schools. We cannot stop the influx of illegal aliens, and illegal drugs. We caused the oil leak in the Gulf of Mexico. We cannot stop the oil leak in the Gulf of Mexico, and we cannot, we cannot, we cannot…. No doubt, America is a country of losers, this is only the beginning and it will get much worse as surely as the sun rises in the morning.
America’s iniquities have separated her from her God, God has hidden his face from her, and he will not hear, because her hands are stained with blood, her fingers with guilt, her lips have spoken lies, and her tongue mutters wicked things. No one calls for justice; no one pleads his case with integrity, they rely on empty arguments and speak lies; they conceive trouble and give birth to evil. Apostate godless Americans are more dangerous than BP, Obama, Bin Laden, and Islam, and very shortly they will bring America down to total ruin
The evidence is everywhere. America is technologically advanced in the midst of religious gagged charlatans gone wild for profits, deceiving the spiritually undeveloped pew sitting dumbbells, who are also easily manipulated by the vultures of Washington DC, and the buffoons of the mainstream News Media. In Matthew 10: 16, Jesus said, “I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves” Today’s typical so-called Christian is not a lover of God, but a lover of money, and as gullible as a toddler, and as dumb as a house.
Therefore the Lord, the LORD Almighty, the Mighty One of Israel, declares: “Ah, I will get relief from my foes and avenge myself on my enemies. Rebels and sinners will both be broken, and those who forsake the Lord will perish. The mighty man will become tinder and his work a spark; both will burn together, with no one to quench the fire.”
Henry
Henry you say: “the Mighty One of Israel” just curious but why would the maker of trillions of galaxies, uncountable stars and planets, care about a little plot of land here? Or about a bronze age tribe here on our little ball of dirt? While you’re thinking about that why would an omnipotent being have petty human emotion such as anger? Dwell on this….
Dude, who do you think on this blog is going to buy your tl;dr bible-drivel?
Read it again, Henry doesn’t say it, the Lord, the Lord Almighty, the Mighty One of Israel, declares:
I’m talking about YOUR use of “Mighty One of Israel” ….why would the maker of the universe be “of Israel”?
One is not a Jew (an Israelite) who is one outwardly, but inwardly. Roman’s 2:28.
“Israel’ is a type, portrays the various processes, trials, etc that one goes through, endures (that God puts us through in the forming of His nature in us) in becoming one of His people, ie a (spiritual) Israelite.
Exodus 3: 13- 15, “Moses said to God, “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ Then what shall I tell them?” God said to Moses, “I am who I am. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ” God also said to Moses, “Say to the Israelites, ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, the name by which I am to be remembered from generation to generation.
‘the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob’
Those three are descriptive of the stages we transition through. Abraham (is called ‘out’) and follows God to an unknown ‘land’ by faith (which is accounted to him righteousness). Isaac represents Christ being born in us (someOne we can’t ‘birth’ ourselves, is God’s promise to do so, to borth His nature in us). And finally Jacob who was a ‘twin’ and ‘wrestled’ with his Brother (esau, a type of our fallen, flesh nature) in the ‘womb’ (creative, forming stage). This means once we are born anew we have two natures (flesh & spirit) fighting for supremacy within, two ‘kingdoms in conflict’. Eventually, after a ‘night season’ of wrestling, of struggling with (against) God we are ‘changed’ into a new ‘nation’ meaning a kind of people/person, a true(spiritual man) an Israelite is…born Its beautiful.
Amen!
Amen? So I take you guys don’t look at the night sky and feel any kind of insignificance? We’re it huh? “Israel” (with its human made boundaries) is the plot of land with utmost significance in the entire scheme of the entire universe and all history? That little sliver of mud is what’s everything is all about? Think about it….
Two idiots, talking amongst themselves in their sky-friend code…
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