by VorJack
During my “dues paying” years, I worked a job as a security guard stuck in a little guard shack. In order to avoid the feeling like I was in a sensory deprivation tank, I always kept the radio on to whatever station wasn’t playing country music. That meant that I occasionally listened to the local Christian station.
Praying to Change the World
Pullquote: Does an omniscient God need to be told that there’s a problem?
One thing I noticed was the constant call to prayer: pray for God to support the President, pray for God to oppose Congress, pray to protect the kids in public school who can’t pray for themselves, pray for the continued prosperity of Wal-Mart (seriously). Growing up Episcopalian, prayer was either a group ritual or a private meditation. This was something different: prayer as spellcasting.
I can’t think of another way to describe it. It doesn’t seem to make sense, even from within the conservative Evangelical theology. Does an omniscient God need to be told that there’s a problem? If God has a will of His own, do you really think you can brow-beat Him into action? If God has a plan for us all, do you really think you can get Him to change his mind?
Didn’t Matthew have Jesus say: “… in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.” (Matt. 6:7-8)
Random Reality
Pullquote: Bad things happen to good people, and also to careful people.
Last week, Daniel posted an example of victim blaming. It’s the classic “she’s asking for it” response to someone who dresses differently than you. I think victim blaming is a pretty good example of a certain kind of psychological trick that’s oddly related to this type of prayer.
As a number of people have pointed out over the years, “she was asking for it” is often an unconscious way of saying, “that can’t happen to me.” I wouldn’t go walking in that neighborhood, I wouldn’t wear that outfit, I’d never go out at night alone. Blaming the victim is a way of placing the cause of the harm on the victim shoulders, which implies that the victim could have avoided their fate. By extension, the speaker can avoid suffering that same fate with just a little common sense.
So the victim blaming is actually a psychological trick unconsciously used be the speaker to avoid facing one of the central facts of human existence: shit happens. Yes, you can take certain precautions that lower the probability that you might suffer calamity. But sometimes those precautions are not possible, and sometimes the dice are against you no matter how much you’ve done to improve your odds. Bad things happen to good people, and also to careful people.
Taking Control
Pullquote: Medieval Catholics prayed in order to feel that they had some control over death. Modern Christians pray in order to feel that they have some control over life.
I think its the randomness that really bothers us. The thought that all that separates us from a long stay in the hospital are the random firings of neurons in a drunk driver’s brain can be horrifying. Accompanying that is the horror of powerlessness: if that drunk swerves into us, there’s nothing we can do. Psychologists have shown that we always feel better we believe we have some control.
The above sort of prayer is another way to deal with that feeling of horror. It’s a trick that helps us feel like we’re doing something and that somehow we’re in control. Whenever we’re in a situation where we are powerless – when a friend is in the hospital, when bad things are happenings in far-off Washington, when the huge national economy is out of control, or just when we’re facing all the randomness that’s part of human life – at least we can pray and feel like we’re taking some control over the situation.
This kind of prayer still seems silly to me. Since I grew up in a liturgical church, it probably always will. But at least I think I can understand it now. Prayer of this type lets you do something, when there’s nothing really that you can do.
One thing puzzles me though. This isn’t a million miles away from the medieval Christian habit of praying for the dead to reduce the time spent in purgatory. Medieval Catholics prayed in order to feel that they had some control over death. Modern Christians pray in order to feel that they have some control over life. Do we now find life more horrifying than death?
Tyler!: Sooooo who exactly are they taking our country back from??? And i am in the process of moving so... 
NoYourGod: Yerp – nuthin’ saiz “patriotic” like “love it or leave... 
LawnBoy: Gee.. when exactly was this golden age of pureness in politics and the reign of common sense? 
Daniel Florien: So why aren’t you out in Montana with a bomb shelter, stocked food, and tons of ammunition? 
nazani14: Things that can’t go on forever don’t. Following the record heat, the power outages in the D.C.... 
Nelly: my apologies for using “duplicate” way too many times………..I really wish... 
Ty: Please. A moon hoaxer talking about good science? “I personally do not believe that we can prove that... 
32 Comments
Intercessory prayer makes no sense whatsoever.
Praying of any kind really makes no sense if someone believe their god has a plan for them. Even us mortals make plans and anytime there is a change in those plans it can alter other events in ways that do harm to the over all plan. To believe that some god would alter some magnificent plan just so you don’t get ill, your football teams wins, or just about anything else is a bit egotistical.
Many Christians will tell you that no, God doesn’t need to be told there’s a problem. The object is to get the believer face his own helplessness and his dependence on God. Ironically, these same Christians will then turn around and sneer that a simple prayer like, “Thy will be done,” is insipid and faithless; evidence that the petitioner doesn’t really expect God to do anything. Listening to the words they’re actually praying will sometimes tell you more about their theology than their sermons will.
If God can be moved to intercede in someone’s life by the request of others, it clashes with the much vaunted free will which Christians otherwise like to bring up at every opportunity. So much for consistency.
This is the one-year anniversary of a terrible tragedy in our area – a friend of my daughter, 13 years old, was murdered. We went to the one-year memorial service – it was a Quaker service at a UU church. I sobbed the whole time – it just hit me so much, the vulnerability of my daughter and my family, that all we have is each other and this life and how important it is it make the most of it, the pain that family is going through and their grace and strength. the family has started all kinds of initiatives on changing the justice system and police search procedures for missing children, and are working against violence against women.
The Grandma of another girl this monster had killed got up. She thanked God that she now knows what happened to her granddaughter (at the price of the death of another girl? I felt myself go hot and cold), thanked God that she had community, was so thankful for everything in her life, thankful the lord was taking away her anger and giving her peace. Thankful she would see her granddaugher again. She prayed every day for the girls and their families and the murderer.
I am really glad that gives her peace; I understand the need for that and wouldn’t wish more pain on everyone. But I had to grit my teeth the whole time. If God was so great, he couldn’t prevent this? Thank God for creating a human who could become such a monster? Etc, etc – you all know the drill. I think the first family’s actions will have more of an effect than the second family’s praying.
I really liked this, Vorjack. Shit happens. Really, really bad shit happens all the time, and it is not personal and there is no purpose behind it. For me, since I lost faith, I can truly and fully grieve, feel whatever I feel and accept that, then live my life as best I can. I don’t feel compelled to ask why this happened, which is I think an unanswerable and crazy-making question. Thinking we can protect ourselves, that we have to find a meaning that makes it OK, that it is not OK to feel what we feel, I think twists and malforms some of the best potential of being human.
Two weeks ago this morning my dad was almost killed by a young man he had been trying to help. My dad didn’t die and is already up and around, almost as vigorous as ever. While he was in the hospital the family convened in his room. Thick in the air were mutters about how good God was to have spared his life. It was all I could do to grit my teeth and keep my mouth shut. Everything in me wanted to scream, “Then why didn’t this good God of yours keep that kid from bouncing a hammer off Dad’s head several times?” I know by experience that it would have been futile. Faith is a very effective force field.
Do you know if the man who “bounced a hammer off your dad’s head” was religious?
No. I met him cursorily a time or two, but didn’t get to know him. He was just a 21-year-old kid who was out of work. My dad bought him groceries and even paid him to do some lawn work. When he didn’t have any place to stay my dad let him stay overnight in a house he was renovating. The next morning my dad (74 years) came in (even brought some breakfast) and the guy attacked him. After the bludgeoning he forced my dad (half conscious and bleeding heavily) to drive him to a certain location. There, he just got out and left Dad to drive himself to the emergency room.
I’ve got to say my dad’s a tough old bird. He’s got a finger so smashed up (trying to shield himself from the blows) that it may never work again, but he’s already back to renovating that house. He was out this morning shoveling accumulated dirt off of the driveway .
A speedy recovery for your dad! He’s a brave men.
People are sick.
Thanks.
Whether it’s praying or sacrificing goats or swinging dead cats over your head or holding seances to commune with the dead, it’s all putting effort into an activity to change the future. It is a way for people to be doing something to feel in control.
The problem is that it doesn’t actually do anything. Therefore the all the effort is wasted. So instead of preforming an activity that really has a chance of working, they comfort themselves with the idea that they are supernaturally altering events. It’s a very ineffective placebo. This is pretend, and although, it may be fun, pretending you’re growing food doesn’t really do it. Pretending you’re building shelter doesn’t get you a house. Pretending you’re changing the future into what you want it to be doesn’t truly do it.
And by the time you realize it, it may be too late. And there lies the danger.
We need to reach a point in our lives where we no longer pretend to change the future but work on realistic projects that truly have a chance of doing so. It time we, as a nation, pulled our heads out of our asses and stopped begging invisible space giants for favors.
The Blessed Atheist Bible Study
Every scientfic study shows that praying does not help. But hey.. let’s just pray.. beats throwing a coin into the wishing well.. Religion is for the WEAK.
I have to say I would normally like to agree with you. I also enjoy calling large groups of people WEAK! (see: fat people and women). However religion can be more of a trick and a trap than I think most people realize. And everyone needs to talk to someone. Even if it’s them self… disguised as God.
I agree that prayer does sometimes fall under the heading of meditation, i.e. sitting quietly and concentrating on a problem. The mere activity of doing so can calm you and help clear your head for what needs to be done. As a result, you may feel that god has granted you control over your problems and the right attitude with which to address them, or even the ability to see a new solution you could not find when your thoughts were racing. With this in mind, I am in favor of prayer or whatever you wish to call it, and wherever you think the positive attitude came from.
Another thing about prayer is, say there is a problem you can’t address yourself, like someone is sick. I don’t begrudge someone praying for their recovery. I would say that falls more under the heading of concern and worry taking over, and trying to put those in a place where you can hope for the best outcome instead of fear the worst. Even sometimes, to prepare yourself for the worst outcome, and admit even partially that this is not something within your control, and whatever happens, you have thought about that person with love and releasing control from their fate. In the past, I did not so much believe in god so much as try to define the world outside one’s control as being one thing (which I imagined could be labeled “god”), to accept that much, but not in any way feel that it had human thoughts and concerns and preferences and a will, for example. It is what it is. We are at its “mercy” for lack of a better word; I don’t think of it as having or lacking mercy or other feelings.
It does make me a little ill when people misplace their gratitude then, or find a hurtful (to another) way to express their understanding of events and find a way to feel good about bad things that happen to other people, or give god credit instead of a person. Anything that associates with being “god’s plan” tends to upset me whenever I hear about it because it’s absurd.
What really does get me, however, is like another post from the other day. The Rosary of Aborted Babies. The site which sells these trinkets promises from Jesus via someone named Maureen that every prayer on this necklace thingie will cause god to change the mind of someone considering abortion, and god requires this message sent from earth to him in order to do so. If someone believes in this stuff, I don’t know how they get through the day. I mean, if abortion (for that specific example) is such a top issue, how do they justify stopping praying on the beads? A 1-to-1 correlation with prayer/fetus-saving would make me think “is 25 enough or do I have to go on all day?” Do you think god thinks 25 is sufficient – I mean, if you think this matters so much to you both, why does he need your specific devotional prayer on a specific material item? I think if you’re going to believe this does any good, you have to pray non-stop. To imagine your prayer is like a lightswitch in god, who then enters the mind of some other person you don’t know, who lives somewhere else is C-R-A-Z-Y, but if you are working on an urgent problem anyway, I think it’s also hypocritical to determine for yourself what your fair share is. God is depending on you, this is no time to claim you have a moderate devotion.
Clearly God needs to have more faith in himself and stop relying on other people to tell him what to do.
Kodie – great post, thank you.
I have used that quote from Matthew a number of times and the responses I get are usually a splutter and a red face.
A church marquee in my town reads ” Pray Until Something Happens” I recall saying something out loud to the affect of ” you gotta be F*@!%king kidding me??? ” and it reminded me of a day at work.
A couple came in dismayed at there current situation and started praying that I would fix their problem, the compliments for my kindness, and care were lacing this prayer heavily for anyone else to hear. I was so offended that they would use such a control tactic ( not to mention create discomfort for others in a business office) to sway my position on their behalf that I had to leave the room. As it turned out, I couldn’t legally do what they needed, and was treated as the enemy there after.
As they milled around trying to convince me that the lord had blessed them, and could bless me too if I ” helped them out ” ( translate, ” brake the law’) to which I replied, “apperently I’m not the only one saying ” No “. Having been told that sometimes gods answer is ” No” so often growing up, I thought this would suffice, but no. Apperently if a non believer says it, it doesn’t count. If I granted their wish, they would thank the lord, not me for going out on a limb to assist. And because I didn’t, they were going to pray that I be free from satans power. They, on the other hand, were nowhere to be found in their own situation.
The impression I get is that god is a bit like a judge; he won’t act until asked. People usually justify it with free will: if you don’t ask, god won’t answer as be won’t interfere without your consent/acceptance.
“The impression I get is that god is a bit like a judge; he won’t act until asked.”
I bet the characters in the old testament wish this was true. =P
I know, right? Job comes to mind.
Alas, that was how I was taught. Good thing I never bought it.
my response to anyone who says they’ll “pray for me” is usually: “it’s your time, waste it anyway you choose.”
“I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.” (Ecc. 9:11 KJV)
Guess you can’t just put “Shit happens” in the buybull
Well, Mike, the author managed to keep this book int he canon for thousands of years, even though it directly contradicts the rest of the Bible every other verse. That’s a pretty impressive accomplishment, if I do say so myself.
Certainly those medieval folks had a lot more on their plate than do we. The expectation for doom, Armageddon, whatever, remains unchanged. The dance may have changed but the song remains the same. God can not possibly be held accountable to us by our deeds, good or bad. Prayer is nothing if it is not the life you lead. Weather or not God exists is of no consequence as things can not be different than they are. Personally, I believe in God, I am sure God did not write a book and Jesus was an ordinary man who did not form a church.
Any claim that we should all pray for those who are ill, such as cancer patients, is really a claim that God is holding their health and life hostage until he has reached a sufficient quantity of prayer. Remember, he can heal them at any time; for some reason, he’s holding out. Apparently it’s not a great reason, either, if that reason is changed by a sufficient number of believers pointing faith-beacons his way. Who is God to be so faith-dependent — Tinkerbell?
The concept makes a lot more sense where it originated, in polytheisms with competing, limited gods — we pray to Osiris so he doesn’t think we’ve been flirting with Horus, and because he’s the one who can deal with our specific problem. Next week, it’ll be a job for a different deity, so will have to satisfy that one’s vanity. Of course, prayer is just empty words compared to delicious fresh food, as Jehovah will happily tell us again and again and again and again in His Book.
Yeah, that is weird. Say my mom had cancer (fictional example), and as I described earlier, praying for her recovery, for me, was in some way a sort of benign activity while I coped – hoping for a good outcome and preparing for a bad outcome – “god’s will,” you might have called it, or in my opinion, whatever happens, happens. The strong point of this is that I love my mom and I am thinking about her and myself, and admitting to myself this is out of my control, but whatever happens, we’re going to accept it. If you don’t believe in prayer or god (I don’t), I think if someone near you is sick, you are going to spend a lot of time thinking about it and coming to terms in a similar way.
Then someone at work asks me why I look like I’ve been crying or why something got turned in with a mistake, and I say, I’ve got a lot on my mind. I’m sorry. It’s just… that my mom is sick and I’m worried about her. This person doesn’t know my mom and offers to pray for her. In one way, that person (co-worker, friend, acquaintance, whatever) is just saying they are sorry to hear it, and I guess implying they are not such a hard-ass, so that it’s a pretty good excuse for not working up to par in recent weeks.
And then they go too far. They say, I will bring it up at church this Sunday, and make sure the whole congregation gets in a prayer for your mom.
What the hell? Now dozens if not hundreds of people know my personal issues. Is it comforting to anyone really to know that a building full of strangers is going to add in a special thought toward a woman they don’t know? Like, that is a whole team going up just for my mom! God will turn it my way if he has numbers. Way to give me hope. Or for that matter, why would a church full of people need to be told that somewhere in town, a woman has cancer in order to pray for her recovery? Why don’t they just pray for these things in general? I’m sure there are people who have cancer and deserve the so-called honor of prayer, you just don’t hear about them, so they don’t exist, so you can’t pray for them while you’re at it?
That is what I don’t really understand, is that aside from people you want to think about and hope for, such people tend to forget to pray about a lot of other people in similar or worse situations. They only pray for whom they are told to pray, and everyone else gets ignored. I cannot fathom worship of the supernatural that spends a lot of time praying for this and not even thinking about that, whatever is god’s will in one case is up to us asking especially in another. So arrogant and hypocritical.
Well, actually I think many Christians do offer prayers for people in general, something like “God, please help those less fortunate” or “forgive all sinners”, things like that.
The reason why they tend to pray specifically for certain people or certain things is probably more related to human nature than any personal or religious failing on their part. It’s not so different from how we distinguish between, say, a local (or not-so-local) kid dying tragically in traffic, and kids dying horribly every day in wars and famine. Both cases are tragic, but the latter case is removed and abstract, so it tends to not get our attention.
“so will have” should be “so we’ll have”.
Some Christians claim that nobody should pray for personal needs, but Jesus taught his followers that prayer included praying for personal needs. I understand that any kind of prayer appears odd to non-theists while praying for personal needs is part of biblical Christianity.
Thanks for the good thoughts, VorJack! I appreciated them. I was an evangelical minister for the majority of my adult life until I finally woke up from the dream. I especially appreciated your thoughts about the role that a feeling of “control” plays in our lives. I liked to point that out when I was teaching or preaching from Mark’s account of Jesus calming the storm. The disciples were afraid because they had no control over the storm. As the storm came on them you can be sure that the fisherman among them were assuring the land-lubbers that there was nothing to worry about, that they knew boats and storms and were in control. But, as the storm grew in intensity and all their sailors’ tricks were to no avail, they too grew afraid, until they finally woke Jesus (who was miraculously sleeping through all of this, as you may recall) and he took control, rebuking them for their lack of faith…which calls for some explanation, which Jesus doesn’t give.
But it was the lack of control that gave birth to the fear. We drive our cars with a certain sense of assurance and control. But slide on the ice unexpectedly, or have someone run a stop sign and crash into us, and the sense of control evaporates and we’re afraid when we drive for some time after the accident…until the illusion of control resolidifies…if it ever does.
Last week our daughter called from the west coast (we live in Pennsylvania) at 2 a.m. She and her baby were in the hospital emergency room. The baby had been ill and wasn’t nursing. He was perilously dehydrated. The problem was actually a lot more complicated than I explain here, but just know that everyone was scared for the wee one! I so wanted to be able to DO something, to feel to some degree in control! I wanted to at least assure her that I’d be praying for them in this situation. But I couldn’t do that honestly, of course. I wanted to do SOMETHING to bolster for her and for me a sense of control over the situation. “I hear you, Honey! Don’t worry, I’ve called the heavenly 911!!”
Anyway, I felt the tension of wanting to give her assurances, but being unable to do so. I’ve lost my faith in what you call here, the spellcasting power of prayer. We used to use the phrase, “casting a blanket of prayer” over the situation. I lay there in my bed with the phone in my hand and I felt powerless…not that I had any more power when I used to pray, but at least I FELT that I did, and perception is everything, right?
The baby was dehydrated because he hadn’t been able to nurse. He wasn’t nursing because earlier last week our daughter herself was very sick and the meds she was on prohibited nursing her baby. Cold-turkey weaning was his lot in life. Bummer!! He didn’t handle it well, hence the dehydration. But earlier that week our daughtere had texted me (she wasn’t able to talk) with the news of how sick she was. Emergency room stuff. At the end of her brief text she wrote, “I wish you could pray for me, Dad. Please tell Mom so she can pray!” (my wife is still a believer.)
I didn’t sense that she was criticizing me for not praying. But she WAS expressing that universal reaction to being out of control, the same that Peter expressed when he tried to walk on water and began to sink beneath the waves: “Lord! Help!!!” It makes a body feel good, I guess, even if it accomplishes nothing more than that. And I guess we shouldn’t underestimate the potential benefits of reducing the fear factor in an emergency situation. But for me, the sense of hypocrisy that such foxhole praying would bring may just be as damaging as the sense of lack of control.
Anyhow, VorJack, thanks for stimulating a bunch of helpful thoughts today!
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