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1. 

   A-Tom
   Member

   Cynic: the "edit" button seems to have disappeared. It was there before!

   And whether extremists would exist without moderates or not is all in the name... who gets to be the kettle and who gets to call who black. Obviously, extremists don't think the moderates are "pure" enough or faithful enough to the religion. So they want the moderates gone (dead). But even if they succeeded, there's no reason to think it would end there. As long as the extremist mindset were the norm, the fight would just keep on going over who is more "pure" (or, extreme).

   Elemenope: I suppose that as a moderator, it is your job to infuse moderation into the debate at any cost. And I can appreciate that. But that's all I'll give you. You have not convinced me one bit in this debate.

   I don't think islamic world domination is actually in the cards but only because we would fight it just like we fought the nazis, at a great cost.

   Posted 8 months ago #
2. 

   Elemenope
   Moderator

   Elemenope: I suppose that as a moderator, it is your job to infuse moderation into the debate at any cost.

   Thanks, but this is what I actually think, too. :-)

   I don't think islamic world domination is actually in the cards but only because we would fight it just like we fought the nazis, at a great cost.

   I am reasonably certain that Islamic world domination (in the sense we seem to be talking about) is *never* in the cards, for the simple fact that Islam is no more a monolith than Christianity. There are divisions, secular and sectarian, linguistic and cultural, that divide the Muslim world as deeply as the wider world. Islam is not a body politic, and no nation could ever hope to command them. As I mentioned before, nearly three-quarters of the world's Muslims are not from the benighted Middle East or Near East, but are rather from Southeast Asia and could not give a damn about political Jihad, nor have any interest in following some Saudi Sheikh.

   Cynic: the "edit" button seems to have disappeared. It was there before!

   The edit button hangs around for a little while, and then it disappears; I think the intent is to give people the opportunity to proofread and fix the text as it would actually appear.

   Posted 8 months ago #
3. 

   rA
   Member

   The edit button hangs around for a little while...

   An hour.

   Posted 8 months ago #
4. 

   Elemenope
   Moderator

   There you have it. I wasn't sure if it was time-limited or had to do with number of subsequent posts.

   Posted 8 months ago #
5. 

   Gringa
   Member

   A-tom, a while back you said this: "non-muslim apologists for islam"

   I don't know if you were talking about me, but it seems like it. I am not apologizing for any religion; I am arguing against discrimination solely on the basis of religion, as I would against discrimination on the basis of sex, race, hair color, whatever.

   Posted 8 months ago #
6. 

   JonJon
   Member

   I'm gonna have to fall squarely on LMNOP's side on this one (big shocker, right?)

   If you sincerely think that Islam is the number one most grade-A serious threat to the world at large right now, you sound like a particularly extreme Baptist. There's a reason I don't listen to panic-mongering Christians. Do you claim to have a different stance on the matter from fundamentalist Christians?

   Posted 8 months ago #
7. 

   A-Tom
   Member

   Gringa: no, I wasn't referring to you. What I had in mind was people I met back in college.

   And I don't know if islam is THE biggest threat. My stance differs from baptists in that I don't endorse any godfearing religion, them included. Many of them are just as bad as the muslims they decry.

   Posted 8 months ago #
8. 

   Brian M
   Member

   Islam the biggest threat to "the world"? Not hardly. Islamists (not Islam, but Islamists) killed 3,000 people on September 11. How many have we, the peace-loving Light of the World (tm, Obama and Saint Ronnie of Illinois), killed in reaction since (or, probably more realistically, our elites...of "both" parties, used the 911 attackes (a gift from heaven...listen how the right wing even now vocally salivatingly wishes for another "big event" to galvanize "us" towards total war)to justify insane policy goals and objectives.)?

   There are a lot of "threats to the world." The ravenous limitlessness of modern economic systems are to me a greater threat to "the world" than a few deluded scholars in Saudi Arabia. Global warming. Climate change. Population growth. All bigger threats.

   Besides...again...what the hell do you "War of Civillizations" people want? The United States to start dropping bombs on every Islamic country? Total war involving Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Indonesia (which is actually facing sectarian strife right now), Nigeria...on and on and on. Are YOU all signing up to serve (many of yiou are younger)? Are you voting for 150% tax increases, because when "we" declare war on ervyone in the Muslim world (all 1.2 billion), I doubt the Chinese will be so willing to fund our deficits? What do your fulminations really mean...are you all secret Robert Heinlein readers who want to live in a 110% militarized fascist state?

   Posted 8 months ago #
9. 

   WarbVIII
   Member

   All I really learned,or should I say Re-learned is the US army is the worst service in the US, and that doctors of mental diseases are as crazy as those they treat.....there is no excuse for this man not having been removed from active duty. He should have been discharged years BEFORE this happened,not left to fester within the service, also not be be an unfeeling bastard but how in the hell did he do so much damage on an active military base? The man could have been mobbed with much less damage than what did happen..the whole incident boggles my mind, it could not and would not happen on say a Marine base.

   Posted 8 months ago #
10. 

    BrainUser
    Member

    Yes there are moderates and yes crazy people do crazy things because they are crazy. But my observation echoes others who see Islam as the absolute worst of the world's major religions today. Christianity certainly had its brutality and occasionally still does but Islam puts them all to shame.

    It's particularly abhorrent, especially its unbridled push for a repressive version of control over those it subjugates. The percentage of its adherents who tolerate, even advocate brutal behavior to win this control is higher than any other group.

    The evidence is everywhere in the nearly national-level repression it engages in among so many of its followers. While it may be poverty, tribalism or other reasons that underlie many of these nation's problems, the foundation and justification they use is frequently Islam. Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Sudan, Jordan, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran and many others justify repressive behavior with Islam. Even in the moderate countries like Turkey and Malaysia there is a significant portion of the faithful pushing for a more radical version--what they feel is the "True" Islam.

    All religion is a straight jacket on humanity, Islam is a particular travesty.

    Solution? While we must respect the rights of individuals always, we must also be vocal about calling a spade a spade. If you're a Muslim and you don't decry the various heinous acts carried out in your religion, you are, in my book, almost as bad as they.

    And we shouldn't be afraid to say so.

    Posted 8 months ago #
11. 

    WarbVIII
    Member

    BrainUser...most of the extremists in Islam have been kind of pushed into that bolt hole by the west,Islam specifically,fundamentalist factions, use religion to bring together many varied and primative tribal and pantheistic groups under the 'new' banner of Islam to give folks a universal identity much like western cristianity did around 12 hundred years ago..when the west/christianity stopped Muslim/Islamic expansion at Tours it set Islam back for around 12-13 hundred years,remember until recently Islam was the largest faith,by numbers, in the world and still had not gotten back to a universal church(doctrine) like it had in it's beginning. Basically the faith though around 12 hundred years old has never reached the point christianity did,before fragmenting, thus it still uses things like Jihad and martyrs to spread itself. Again all of which is a direct response to the west and christianity. If you want to understand the faith and it's adherents it would behoove you to look at the actions of christianity from about 450 AD until oh maybe the 1900's, and even that time period afterwards is not without exceptions for christianity(or factions thereof) acting as bad as Islamic fundementalists act today, consider if you will that excluding 9/11 all 'terrorist' attacks in the US excluding the few by AIM(the American Indian Movement) were done by fringe/extremist/fundementalist Christian types. Hell Ireland has been torn apart by christian vs christian violence and terrorism for over 200 years. The 30 years war and the 100 years war had a hell of a lot to do with differences of faith.

    In fact up until around 1950 or so as far as recent history goes,Islam, and it's fundementalists have been worth a foot note more or less in history, since that time on the other hand when the west found great reserves of OIL where they lived and we have generally treated those of that faith like criminals for trying to protect their own land and resources(without the technological base or means to do so,plus forcing them to accept a new nation,a Jewish 'homeland' on lands taken away from the peoples of the middle east in an attempt to pay for the crimes of western christianity that were perpetuated upon those Jews) by the only means they happen to have. One nations terrorists is anothers heroes and freedom fighters, the founders of the USA would in todays parlance be terrorists,as would those that over through every monarchy in europe, as well as the fathers of modern Israel. There are of course many other examples I could mention.

    My point in the end is BrainUser read some history and use your brain rather than parroting popular bullshit.

    Posted 8 months ago #
12. 

    Brian M
    Member

    I would also note (again) that our so-enlightened nation has killed more people, more civillians during the 20th century (and the 21st), than all Islamic terrorism put together. (Phillipines, our Central American adventures, through proxy dictators) Heck, we are at this moment directly funding and arming separatist terrorists (talk about calling a spade a spade)in Iran. Right now...people are blowing up things with our bullets and weapons.

    The preening self righteousness of the American population (and Europe as well) is amazing in its arrogance and historical blindness.

    I have no love for Islam. Portentous talk of moral crusades and wars of civillizations are nothing more than propaganada for the eternal expansion of the War State. count me out.

    Posted 8 months ago #
13. 

    thewarfreak
    Member

    I learned that we should throw out due process when it comes to Akbar:

    "Law enforcement officials announced yesterday that Maj. Nidal M. Hasan has been charged with 13 counts of premeditated murder in the brutal attacks at Fort Hood Army base. Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano said that “the number one issue, I think right now, is that Major Hasan be brought to justice.”

    Last night on Fox News, Bill Kristol called Napolitano’s comment “stupid” and stated outright that there should be no trial:

    KRISTOL: I was very struck also by Janet Napolitano’s comment, I hadn’t read it before to see her say that, that the number one priority is to bring him to justice is such a knee-jerk comment and such a stupid comment. He’s going to be brought to justice. He is not going to be innocent of murder. There are a lot of eyewitnesses to that. They should just go ahead and convict him and put him to death."

    (from thinkprogress.org)

    Posted 8 months ago #

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